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Old 07-21-2022, 03:58 PM   #1
for
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Default Judging if a mix/master is good

I understand the end purpose is to just get a good sound overall. this question is just for informative purposes i think it will help remind some important things i might be forgetting to check etc.

Ok lets say you hear a number one charting song and you enjoy the song.

are there any metering plugins or any other methodology you will go through to actually prove/say/or just assure yourself that

1) that is a good mix

2) that is a good master

thanks!
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Old 07-21-2022, 04:03 PM   #2
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I work on one for 5 or 6 hours, then set it aside until the next day. Then I play a few very well mixed reference tracks before that next-day listen. Nothing like fresh ears to bring problems out.

If I hear something not quite right, I immediately fix it.
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Old 07-22-2022, 03:19 AM   #3
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I work on one for 5 or 6 hours, then set it aside until the next day. Then I play a few very well mixed reference tracks before that next-day listen. Nothing like fresh ears to bring problems out.

If I hear something not quite right, I immediately fix it.


do you use any vst tools to make those comparements or just ears?
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Old 07-22-2022, 04:28 AM   #4
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Default Slightly hard to answer, but...

...in my view, music is art so your ears are the first things that count. If it sounds good, it's good! And that might be very personal, and non-expert listeners might (perhaps surprisingly) care much more on whether or not a song moved them or made them dance than what you or I might care about. I think it's almost our job as producers/engineers for them NOT to notice technical issues so that the listener can enjoy the elements of a piece of music that matters to them.

But I imagine you're thinking technically (as I often do -- I'm hopeless with background music because I always listen like a producer). In that case it's still quite hard. The media itself will influence it. Traditional radio compresses the absolute nuts out of all music, streaming services equalise volume and low bitrate and compression might influence things, tape and vinyl need good kit to really hear it, etc.

It might be the case the best readily available format for commercial music is the CD. But even then, the Loudness Wars minced some (quite a lot, really) masters. And I guess that's the point of your question. In the end, you can analyse a song on various meters, you can look for frequency range, dynamic range, LUFS and clipping etc, and see how good something sits. There will be ways of conducting a statistical analysis of songs, maybe keeping a database of such things. But, in the end, it's pretty subjective.

If a mix sounds good, and can be played using the media you intend (eg via Spotify into someone's phone) without any problems inhibiting the listener's enjoyment -- well, that's a good mix.

How do you get to a good mix yourself? Well, there are some good rules of thumb. Have a good spread of dynamic and frequency range across the stereo image, make sure you can hear the important bits of any particular moment in a song, things like that. There are hours of YouTube videos and numerous books, as well as lots of courses in colleges etc dedicated solely to mixing. Mixing and mastering are truly art forms, so practice, practice, practice; and compare your mixes to commercial mixes to see how you're getting on.

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Old 07-22-2022, 09:55 AM   #5
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I work on one for 5 or 6 hours, then set it aside until the next day. Then I play a few very well mixed reference tracks before that next-day listen. Nothing like fresh ears to bring problems out.

If I hear something not quite right, I immediately fix it.
This works well for me too.

Another trick. When you think you have a good mix up, invite a respected friend in to listen. (Someone also with respected listening/hearing ability.) Hit play. You'll hear everything wrong instantly!
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Old 07-22-2022, 08:25 PM   #6
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do you use any vst tools to make those comparements or just ears?
No. I just queue up a few files in Winamp and let them play.
Then I start mixing/editing.

In a few cases, I've mixed & rendered a song over and over until the latest one has no useful audible improvement over the prior mix. I always stop there.
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Old 07-27-2022, 08:56 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by SiddieNam View Post
...in my view, music is art so your ears are the first things that count. If it sounds good, it's good! And that might be very personal, and non-expert listeners might (perhaps surprisingly) care much more on whether or not a song moved them or made them dance than what you or I might care about. I think it's almost our job as producers/engineers for them NOT to notice technical issues so that the listener can enjoy the elements of a piece of music that matters to them.

But I imagine you're thinking technically (as I often do -- I'm hopeless with background music because I always listen like a producer). In that case it's still quite hard. The media itself will influence it. Traditional radio compresses the absolute nuts out of all music, streaming services equalise volume and low bitrate and compression might influence things, tape and vinyl need good kit to really hear it, etc.

It might be the case the best readily available format for commercial music is the CD. But even then, the Loudness Wars minced some (quite a lot, really) masters. And I guess that's the point of your question. In the end, you can analyse a song on various meters, you can look for frequency range, dynamic range, LUFS and clipping etc, and see how good something sits. There will be ways of conducting a statistical analysis of songs, maybe keeping a database of such things. But, in the end, it's pretty subjective.

If a mix sounds good, and can be played using the media you intend (eg via Spotify into someone's phone) without any problems inhibiting the listener's enjoyment -- well, that's a good mix.

How do you get to a good mix yourself? Well, there are some good rules of thumb. Have a good spread of dynamic and frequency range across the stereo image, make sure you can hear the important bits of any particular moment in a song, things like that. There are hours of YouTube videos and numerous books, as well as lots of courses in colleges etc dedicated solely to mixing. Mixing and mastering are truly art forms, so practice, practice, practice; and compare your mixes to commercial mixes to see how you're getting on.
This is a cool summary. I like your statement saying its subjective... thank God as its still art not science! Can you answer this however... I as many I guess are producing music for the online market and therefore want it to sound really good through headphones firstly. As I guess this is how most listen to Spotify and sound cloud the online platforms etc.. Yet I have been quite surprised--what can sound great on head phones then sounds rubbish on external speakers atleast in my experience. Should we spend a lot of time trying to get your song for example to sound good on both? Or just on headphones. I am somewhat confused about this. Thanks
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Old 07-28-2022, 12:22 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by for View Post
I understand the end purpose is to just get a good sound overall. this question is just for informative purposes i think it will help remind some important things i might be forgetting to check etc.

Ok lets say you hear a number one charting song and you enjoy the song.

are there any metering plugins or any other methodology you will go through to actually prove/say/or just assure yourself that

1) that is a good mix

2) that is a good master

thanks!
There are quite a few plugins to assist you if that is interesting to you.

iZotope's Tonal Balance Control and ADPTR Metric AB come to mind. Also Mastering the Mix Reference 2.

Tonal Balance Control looks at the whole mix and graphs it compared to a bunch of references in a genre. Metric AB allows you to load up a bunch of actual references and quickly flip from one to another and back to your own mix.

I also buy listening assistance on Fiverr when my songs are nearing completion. I have this guy who is extremely talented and detailed in his feedback.

I guess all the other tips including checking it on multiple setups and in your car still applies. I don't have a car, so I just check it on my bike.

Added: Also, plugins like smart:limit from Sonible have a detector to see if loudness and dynamic range is "good" for, say, Spotify.

Added: I added an example of a review I got on Fiverr from Kye for my song "Down to Clown". See it attached to get an idea of what you can expect. I cannot remember exactly how much I paid, but it was certainly less than $20 which I consider a steal considering I probably spent 5 weeks making the song in the first place.
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File Type: pdf Down_to_Clown_-_Cocporn_Mix_Review (1).pdf (46.7 KB, 56 views)
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Old 07-28-2022, 12:40 AM   #9
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They are both completely subjective calls, no meter ever is going to tell you what "good sound" is, IMHO.
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Old 07-28-2022, 05:24 AM   #10
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I think the most salient point I can add to this is that second opinions are important. Ask other people - and not just audio engineers - for their thoughts. Professional opinions are welcome but you'll often receive overly detail-oriented feedback with no sense of holistics. Lay-person viewpoints are the most important as it'll be mostly lay-people who listen to the finished article, so their perspective is key. A professional can spot problems with the spectral balance (for instance), but a lay-person can tell you if it slaps; professionals tend to suck at that.

Seriously, the amount of times we've all had pros tell us our music sounds great only for a regular listener to say: "Yeah but... it's boring."
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Old 07-28-2022, 06:55 AM   #11
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A professional can spot problems with the spectral balance (for instance), but a lay-person can tell you if it slaps; professionals tend to suck at that.

Seriously, the amount of times we've all had pros tell us our music sounds great only for a regular listener to say: "Yeah but... it's boring."
Agreed here. I would say if your mix is perfectly balanced, it’s probably boring. I usually pick a few elements to stand out by 3dB or so. Helps avoid the balanced-but-boring issue
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Old 07-28-2022, 09:48 AM   #12
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"Yeah but... it's boring."
This is a super good point. I totally expect you to be giddy like a school girl when you ask someone for their opinion, and they start listening like they normally wouldn't.

I consider it a success if my song is played in a local bar and nobody reacts at all. You know, the same way the previous Foo Fighters song made them react. Not at all.
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Old 07-28-2022, 08:24 PM   #13
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This is a super good point. I totally expect you to be giddy like a school girl when you ask someone for their opinion, and they start listening like they normally wouldn't.

I consider it a success if my song is played in a local bar and nobody reacts at all. You know, the same way the previous Foo Fighters song made them react. Not at all.
I assume there’s some sarcasm here haha. Yea I’d want people to take notice of the song… but that’s up to the composer, not the mix or mastering engineer. I just mixed a Metal song yesterday (the guitars were hell. Why can’t everyone just DI Metal tracks and let me worry about the distortion and cabs? *shaking my head* ) but anyway, while it technically sounds pretty good, the song itself is pretty boring. No cool creative chord changes, no hooks, no swells, no nothing. And NO DYNAMICS IN THE METAL GUITARS! I used StereoTool and its built in Natural Dynamics set to 400% (max) and while it helped, it wasn’t enough. I’m so tired of self-recorded Metal guitars that have an LRA of 1db. Super-boring to the ears.

The final master basically sounds like well-mixed, well-mastered noise. Sucks man. Especially when a client expects you to get them to the charts or something lol. And MIDI strings?!? Can we get Kontact and someone who can program on this stuff please if you don’t have anyone who can play real strings?!? I hate it when there’s great composition but it sounds like, well, 2000’s MIDI.

Uugghh. Had to get that off my chest
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Old 07-29-2022, 04:36 AM   #14
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This is a cool summary. I like your statement saying its subjective... thank God as its still art not science! Can you answer this however... I as many I guess are producing music for the online market and therefore want it to sound really good through headphones firstly. As I guess this is how most listen to Spotify and sound cloud the online platforms etc.. Yet I have been quite surprised--what can sound great on head phones then sounds rubbish on external speakers atleast in my experience. Should we spend a lot of time trying to get your song for example to sound good on both? Or just on headphones. I am somewhat confused about this. Thanks
I don't want to make a glib answer, and this will sound it, although not intentionally. But the truth is, mix it as you would on decent studio monitors and compare it to other mixes you like through the same monitors. If it sounds comparable, and it sounds good, it will be fine in headphones. Beware of clipping -- anything that distorts is deeply ugly (anyway, but that's somehow amplified through headphones in my view).

You might read advice out there about Spotify turning music down for reasons of LUFS. My own experience of this is that, yes, they do it, but if your song has good dynamics anyway, this won't really hurt you. You'll notice the problem if you get drawn into a "loudness war" yourself and brickwall-limit you whole song to be as loud as possible. That's when I would be careful. Avoid being deliberately loud, have plenty of dynamics in the mix, and if it doesn't clip it will be fine.

As long as the song is any good and the rest of the mix elements work, of course -- but that's a different matter!
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Old 07-29-2022, 04:38 AM   #15
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I assume there’s some sarcasm here haha.
No, actually, there isn't, but I can totally understand why you would think there is. Let me try to explain it better.

If you are at a bar or cafe where people aren't stupidly drunk and dancing to "Barbie Girl" or ABBA the music often fades into the background. It sort of becomes part of the scenery.

To me the "pass" or "fail" for a song isn't whether people go crazy and start ripping each other's clothes off, but whether it fits in without people asking "what is this garbage?" My proudest musical moment was when two of my songs were played at a local bar, nobody knew it was me and nobody lifted an eyebrow. This is on the same playlist as Steely Dan, Bruce Springsteen and usually tried and tested music. Not that my songs are really in any way the same quality or even genre. I was the only person in the room who knew I made the songs. Nobody started erupting into joy or whipped out their phones to Shazam it. But more importantly: Nobody went looking for tar and feathers.

Also, they don't "notice" Steely Dan. They've heard it before. Part of the scenery. Having the expectation that they should "notice" your friendly neighborhood webslinger is a tall order.

I understand this will vary based on the genre and if you are intending to create the coolest stadium banger you might be looking for something else. I am not personally trying to do that. So what we are looking for and using as success criteria will obviously be somewhat different.
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Old 07-29-2022, 04:43 AM   #16
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have plenty of dynamics in the mix
Definitely do not get too hung up on dynamics. We've spent the last 100 years developing technology to squash dynamics for a reason. A lot of engineers are now prone to over-emphasising the importance of dynamics in an effort to be seen as untainted by the loudness wars. I've never heard a regular listener complain about songs being too compressed, only audio engineers complain about that. There's really no need for enormous LRAs just to show off how much you don't like limiters, and there are plenty of non-dynamics-related ways to add movement and excitement to music, all it takes is a little talent, nothing more.
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Old 07-29-2022, 06:41 AM   #17
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Definitely do not get too hung up on dynamics. We've spent the last 100 years developing technology to squash dynamics for a reason. A lot of engineers are now prone to over-emphasising the importance of dynamics in an effort to be seen as untainted by the loudness wars. I've never heard a regular listener complain about songs being too compressed, only audio engineers complain about that. There's really no need for enormous LRAs just to show off how much you don't like limiters, and there are plenty of non-dynamics-related ways to add movement and excitement to music, all it takes is a little talent, nothing more.
I sort of agree with this, and it suits some genres. But I have noticed big squashed songs sounding quiet where Spotify have gone "well, we recommend -14 LUFS count and your song's -4..." I'm just saying to help the OP really. The truth is there is no one single bit of advice through this entire thread that can be truly said to be representative of every case. That's why mixing's an art more than a science and you get good at it by understanding some techniques and practicing. But yes, your point is valid.

The thing I would say in the interest of helping the OP is, in the end, trust your ears. If you stick ReaLimit on your master and drive it hard -- do you like it? If yes -- great! It's a good mix. If not, rein it back a bit and have another listen.

I think taking that part of my comment is slightly out of context, by the way -- throughout all of this I've said "trust your ears". I stand by that advice generally to help the OP get a good mix; not all music benefits from a hard squash, but some survives it. I personally find too big a squash distasteful, but like many here I'm an experienced engineer so I'm not the target audience. The lay-listener might dislike something and not understand why -- so you have to pitch it right in order that an inexpert listener doesn't notice and simply enjoys the music. For me, going as loud as possible while retaining some dynamics if you can is part of the art. Also it's a lot easier to squash something dynamic than it is to make something that's already squashed and try to add dynamics back in!

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Old 08-06-2022, 01:42 PM   #18
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Yea, especially with mixing and sending it to a mastering engineer; much better to leave more dynamics and let the mastering engineer do the compression if needed. To a point, of course.
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