Old 03-28-2006, 08:04 AM   #1
ziggly
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Default Speed Slider . .. . .. More Plz

.



ok guys i got 2 posts (and requests)
up already, and truthfully i feel
guilty about making this third one

altho this is in fact the BIG one..
its actually not a new request,
its one Justin didnt seem to Keen on
...and so here i am Just Begging for
a previously requested feature that
probably would only benifit me,
and maybe users of Acid, and those
who make Hip-Hop music and/or other
sample heavy compositions.


Hear me out Justin, last time i asked
you about a speed slider (labeld BPM)
per track your response was that it
would throw things off, events would
be out of sync (paraphrase)this is in
my humble opinion the impression you got.

Plz allow me to plead my case:

i found the speed slider on the Master
track, this is what Pipeline was
pointing out to me in another Post.

well...the sound, the result is Great
with a capital "G" however the way it
works is backward.

by adjusting the speed slider the
Timeline bar speeds up or slows down

there is a Tremendous Potential here
if you would allow me to show you.

in ableton Live when you adjust the
Project BPM it changes the size of
every Event. Quite literally if you
set the BPM slow the events (All)
get huge and if you set a high, fast
BPM all the event become small. Yet
the Timeline bar stays the same.
i mean...the rate at which the bar
scrolls along the timeline is constant.

here is the tremendous potential..
if there was a slider per track then
by adjusting it the events on that
Track would be re-sized..the events
would match the BPM you set
the slider to.

leaving the slider at the middle/
neutral postion, then the samples
or audio remains at its
original form and play rate.

now picture a guy like me..
lets say i have a basic drum pattern
in place, in my Reaper project.
but i want to add some horns,
well if i was to bring a bunch of
samples (from a huge sample library)
and spread them accross a few tracks
the trick (for lack of a better word)
would not only be to find some good
sounding samples but...getting the
ones i like to sound in sync with the Drums.

setting the slider on a few tracks
to varrious BPM's i could throw a
bunch of samples up and Quickly
audition them. dragging the slider
back and forth on the tracks i could
listen to the samples play at varrious
BPM, while in the backround the Drums
(on seperate Drum tracks) would play,
unaffected by my tinkering.

there are a number of Hip-Hop songs
that use high pitched vocal samples
for the chorus, such as Kanye's
"thru the wire", Mafia's "Just us"
and of course camrons "O boy"

now look at the current setup
lets say i adjusted the speed slider
on the master track and i really
liked the way a vocal part sounded
with the high pitch...but how could
i tell if it would sound good with
the drum parts in the same project?

well i guess i would have to render
the vocal parts re-adjust the speed
slider so that the drums play regular
then bring back in the vocal part..
and play them together,
O its soo close ...but a little off
so...what do we do? Tweak,
render again and repeat the process..

Loading a VST like Delaydots
pitchworks on each track is also
an option...so is synching one App
to another app by means of MTC
then putting the Drum parts in one
App and playing...while you tinker the
BPM of other samples in another.

These methods are clumsy,Cpu intensive
and require lots of rendering

However a speed slider on each track
could allow for the quick previewing
and auditioning of a large number of
samples WHILE the drums, the backbone
of your Hip-Hop project plays, at a
steady constant rate.

maybe it would help if i posted
a project. i try to blend recordings
of a live band with with samples
from my library.


Ziggly

Last edited by ziggly; 03-28-2006 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 03-28-2006, 08:23 AM   #2
kejkz
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I must say, and don't give me wrong, that your request is pointless. And that's not because idea is not good, it's because it just complicates thing too much. And most important, you can do everything you described even now in reaper but not like you are describing.

Maybe better solution is to make option for behaviour just like in Ableton and Acid: make events adjust playrate (not pitch) to project bpm, and make it optional, because lot of guys are working on linear scale instead of musical, so that could be fatal. Even now, you can manualy set playrate for any event with various beats per minute in parts of song, with two clicks and alt key.

I also make hiphop (I'm more recording and putting arrangements for others) so this isn't just for that kind of music, it can be usefull to many styles and applications.

Sorry if I was harsh, that was'nt my intention
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Old 03-28-2006, 08:50 AM   #3
MJH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kejkz
I must say, and don't give me wrong, that your request is pointless. And that's not because idea is not good, it's because it just complicates thing too much. And most important, you can do everything you described even now in reaper but not like you are describing.

Maybe better solution is to make option for behaviour just like in Ableton and Acid: make events adjust playrate (not pitch) to project bpm, and make it optional, because lot of guys are working on linear scale instead of musical, so that could be fatal. Even now, you can manualy set playrate for any event with various beats per minute in parts of song, with two clicks and alt key.

I also make hiphop (I'm more recording and putting arrangements for others) so this isn't just for that kind of music, it can be usefull to many styles and applications.

Sorry if I was harsh, that was'nt my intention
I have to say, I agree, I was onboard with Ziggly's first two requests but this one is more appropriate for "music creation" apps. IMO, such as Acid, Not a MTR/Sequencer and I'm not interested especially since I can see the major pitfalls involved, code and GUI-wise, with such an implementation.

For me, audio/MIDI recording editing is what I'm looking for as I play/record/edit live performances. Loop construction is a non-issue.

MJ

Last edited by MJH; 03-28-2006 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 03-28-2006, 03:21 PM   #4
ziggly
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Default another chance Plz.....

I must say, and don't give me wrong,
that your request is pointless. -Kejkz

this one is more appropriate for "music
creation" apps. IMO, such as Acid, Not
a MTR/Sequencer and I'm not interested"-Mjh




My response is....Where's GRIBBLE?????

everyone has features that they feel
passionately should be implemented or left out.
in another thread MJH you described certain
midi functions as a "dealbreaker".
So, guys walk with me mentally here.

Justin and Piplelines ideas about Master/Parent
sends and Folder tracks were admittedly
lost on me. But after having read MalcomJ's
Reaper routing guide....it's Brilliant.

early on, when they were posting here
presenting such ideas i didnt say
"hey these ideas are Pointless"

Becuase I HADNT USED these routing features
therefore i wasnt able to see the significance
and i was skeptical and resistant becuase
a more conventional mixer approach
....was what i was USED TO.


i value your disagreeing becuase it sends
me back to the drawing board asking
"am i wrong?", "is this the right way to go
about it?", "Was this idea worthwhile to begin with?"
The answer you'll be glad to Know is Yes!! :-- )
and i need Just a little bit more
of your Patience to show you.

simply restating the Value of a per
track BPM slider i would Just be repeating
myself and in so doing risking alienating you
,and spining this into a cycle/argument
where in you restate your inital objection..
and it is not my intention to lock horns
with you here. :-)

imagine this, a slider...that on one end says
-100 bpm in the middle its nuetral and on the
other end its +100 bpm.
the Defualt position is nuetral and left alone
all events on that track would play back at
thier normal rate. Just like bringing a
clip(an event) into Ableton and turning off
auto warp. the project isnt destroyed, the
world dosent end...simply the one clip plays
at its normal rate independent of the
project BPM/Tempo. similarly In Acid you
can have all your events adhere to the BPM
slider, but also you can have a one-shot
which is (drumroll Plz) independent of the
BPM slider and, you guessed it, it plays at its
normal rate.

so if you follow me...ask yourself this
one question, what is the effect of a feature
not in use??
answer = none. if the slider is left at Nuetral
there is no effect. No projects gone haywire,
no chaos.


so when you say "it just complicates thing
too much." " because lot of guys are
working on linear scale instead of musical,
so that could be fatal" "I'm not
interested especially since I can see the
major pitfalls involved,"
Sorry fellas but thats Just not the case

i am only asking for functionality thats
already in place in Ableton and Acid
but Just on a Per-Track level,
and with Two additional Features.

again i am NOT attacking you, so before
you completely close your mind to me, Picture
something else, imagine the project playing
and then you move back and forth
the BPM slider on a Track (thus shifting
the size of the events) imagine if this
movement, the automation was recorded.
so on play back the Program mimics your
movements. if the sound was to your liking
you could copy that automation and paste
it onto another track and then those events
would likewise change thier BPM accordingly.
While all the tracks not tampered with would
go about thier merry way...normal speed.


Gentlemen i respectfully ask you to consider this.

On Feb 23 06 GIBBLER Posted saying:

"I have to chime in and say that for me
flexible tempo features are right at the top
of my 'most wanted' list for sequencers."

The reason is that the general problem with
using computers for music (when it comes to
most sequencers) is that you're trapped
in 'the matrix' to some extent, i.e. within
the framework of western tuning and regular
timing."

"What I would love to see is 'trackable tempo',
where you could have more than one tempo line,
and assign tracks to one or another of them.
Also, such flexibility (really useful with film stuff)
as being able to lock markers to the absolute time line,
but divide the intervening time into a particular number
of beats would be great."

i cant speak for anyone else obviously
alls i am saying is that i think that a
per Track BPM slider adresses some
of what the man is saying, and i would be Keenly
interested in his (and of course Justins) perspective.
i could be Wrong, and i welcome your feedback....
Guys i am talking about a feature that
would allow reaper to elegantly break free
from conventional tempos and playback settings.
Reaper would be Wonderfully flexible.
to say that this would be the feature of my
dreams would be an understatement.
reaper would have a BPM slider and project
Tempo settings as infinitely flexible as
its Routing features.


Ziggly
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Old 03-28-2006, 05:09 PM   #5
kejkz
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Ok, I don't think you are attacking anybody, don't worry, this is just a simple conversation. Like I said, I like the idea, and that feature could realy add great flow and live feel to dull or to pattern sounding tracks. I have a good picture of this feature. I can easily addopt on that philosophy, but I have one question: why every track had to have tempo adjustment?

Why can't we have tempo tracks that can be assigned to any number of tracks just like group of tracks in Reaper routing. And in that track posibillity to make grid with custom tempo. That is a killer combo. If I don't need one, i'm not loading it. If I need one, I make one. If I need dozen, well, I will make a dozen (and maybe one). And that I can in any time assing master status to any tempo track I want, to control master speed of whole song.

I hope one day I will see this happening. But until that, snaping turned of is my way to make human feel in music.

Cheers
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