Old 07-20-2019, 08:52 AM   #81
BenK-msx
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Hardware and controller are indicative,
Other software is indicative
Other themes are indicative.
User are too.

I and I believe others care (the most) that stop is no longer next to play, all this pause talk is a herring.


Again I ask if there's an impediment to making play button also be stop ?

We are all used to spacebar play/stop behaviour, match it in on screen?
We only need to stop playback when there's playback -


So play button goes green and becomes a stop symbol, eye goes straight for it to deal with playback. Pause and record unaffected.
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Old 07-20-2019, 12:16 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
Again I ask if there's an impediment to making play button also be stop ?

We are all used to spacebar play/stop behaviour, match it in on screen?
We only need to stop playback when there's playback.
Correct, but what do you want to happen with that "stop"? When on playback, Reaper Stop is also RTZ (Return to Zero)...or in Reaper more accurately, return to current edit cursor position. And some people don't want that either, but rather what you get currently with Pause. That is, pause the playback and move the edit cursor to current (pause) location.

You can also currently hit Play button during the playback to go immediately back to the edit cursor and continuing from there. So the kind of Play/Stop combi button suggested here cannot be made without further thoughts and changing current Reaper features, which makes this clearly a FR. Just some thoughts in a case you really want to push that forward...

---

As for the changed transport control order like it stands currently, it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other. But I'm a bit surprised about the hoopla. While there are some common ways transport buttons are arranged, there is clearly not one golden standard everybody follows. Not amongst the DAWs nor controllers, and funnily enough, not even between some HW controllers and their own software. Instead of trying to fit square heads into round holes, I think the proper way is to acknowledge what we actually have in Reaper and continue finding ways to improve that. Comparing to other things which don't even have the same features just doesn't make much sense. Imho, of course.
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Old 07-20-2019, 04:52 PM   #83
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Not arguing anyone's point ITT, but I don't see why anyone with a keyboard would hit those buttons with the mouse when spacebar is faster and less RSI-prone.
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Old 07-20-2019, 06:08 PM   #84
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Not arguing anyone's point ITT, but I don't see why anyone with a keyboard would hit those buttons with the mouse when spacebar is faster and less RSI-prone.
I have transport controls on my MIDI keyboard, FaderPort Classic and other controllers. I use whichever is handiest at the moment. For example, if my hand is already on my trackball, I'll give the GUI transport a click. If I'm playing a guitar, then the FaderPort is usually handiest. And if I'm using my MIDI keyboard, those buttons are quickest to use.
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Old 07-20-2019, 07:05 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by puddi View Post
Not arguing anyone's point ITT, but I don't see why anyone with a keyboard would hit those buttons with the mouse when spacebar is faster and less RSI-prone.
It happens.

As for rtz - everyone is so used to it being the case on stop I dont see why play also being stop is a problem . Exactly as space bar acts. Any other use case is far rarer than stop because invariaby user wants to stop.

As predicted this is circular, all counter arguments are weak - stop needs to be next to play and a similar size ...
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Old 07-21-2019, 03:36 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobF View Post
I have transport controls on my MIDI keyboard, FaderPort Classic and other controllers. I use whichever is handiest at the moment. For example, if my hand is already on my trackball, I'll give the GUI transport a click. If I'm playing a guitar, then the FaderPort is usually handiest. And if I'm using my MIDI keyboard, those buttons are quickest to use.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
It happens.

As for rtz - everyone is so used to it being the case on stop I dont see why play also being stop is a problem . Exactly as space bar acts. Any other use case is far rarer than stop because invariaby user wants to stop.

As predicted this is circular, all counter arguments are weak - stop needs to be next to play and a similar size ...
I don't see the reason to completely remove the stop button since it at least takes you back to the project start when it's been paused.

But I agree that the button order is somewhat confusing, even if I would never use it.
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Old 07-21-2019, 05:39 AM   #87
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This thread is quite interesting! And necessary, I guess.

It also reminds me a little of waaay back in the day when I designed custom ”skins” for a certain DAW, and some users went bananas because I'd had the audacity to use sliders instead of knobs for some objects. Well, now, didn’t I know that the freaking knob was “standard” on hardware? (Eventually the “skin” became among the popular - despite the non-standard look. But that’s another story.)
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:22 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
As for rtz - everyone is so used to it being the case on stop I dont see why play also being stop is a problem . Exactly as space bar acts. Any other use case is far rarer than stop because invariaby user wants to stop.
It doesn't really matter, you'd still have to figure out at least what will happen with the instant repeat feature that is now in Play control. Give it a new control button, hide it as an alternative option?

As for the case of Stop, Pause or both:
It's not only about the stop action itself, but from where you want to continue the playback. In some cases people don't want RTZ, they want to continue right from where they stopped. Reaper Stop won't do that, it will be the Pause, and then Stop after it if you need to use that also. This all is of course tied also to how we need and want to record, not only to playback. Not surprising then that there have been several threads where people have asked for and even got custom actions to get playback, record and stop behaviors they want. If you'd take out one separate control, you'd also reduce ways people can handle their transport and/or make it more complicated and option laded instead of being as simple as it is currently.

With a combined Play/Stop(RTZ) control, tell me how you'd do e.g. this simple and not rare procedure: You are recording and need to pause recording, possibly continuing from the spot where you paused. You hit Pause, edit cursor jumps to current location and you're ready to continue. But then you decide to stop recording at this moment and save the recorded media. You hit what? Hitting Play/Stop will continue recording, not what you wanted. Hitting Pause again will do the same. Yes, you could hit Play/Stop twice, but then you might also get tiny bit of recording you didn't want. At any rate, extrad effort for a thing there is currently no need.

This only to remind that people are not fine with only the current Stop feature, Pause could be equally important control in some cases. Personally I think they both deserve and need their own controls.

If e.g. the control size requirement goes by this imagined importance, Pause would have to be the same size. In v5 default transport, you'd see quite nice and logical way the three controls in question (Stop (RTZ)-Play-Pause) have been arranged. And current v6 has stop and pause grouped and same size too. Afais, the big problem there is more about where the Loop control is. Pretty simple edit to be offered to anybody, no matter how it would end up. I do use mouse constantly on transport controls, it took me one session to get used to the current arrangement. But I'm not expecting everybody be the same either, so I guess I'm impartial on that matter.
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Old 07-21-2019, 07:58 AM   #89
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was asking for use cases so thanks:

I think if you pause during recording, play is also active right? so if play button was also stop, clicking it would stop.


Also for specific situations users tend to set up a keystroke or change the prefs as to what happens on stop.

Personally I rarely use pause at all, data from one person doesn't mean much of course but my gripe with the new order is ** stop is poorly located and sized ** what happens on stop and where pause comes in is part 2 of the discussion, which happens after part 1 is sorted
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Old 07-21-2019, 08:50 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
As for the changed transport control order like it stands currently, it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other. But I'm a bit surprised about the hoopla. While there are some common ways transport buttons are arranged, there is clearly not one golden standard everybody follows. Not amongst the DAWs nor controllers, and funnily enough, not even between some HW controllers and their own software.
Just out of interest, which controllers have an order other than back - forward - stop - play - record? I can't find any.

...oh, the Icon Qcon has record - play - stop. Can't find any others.
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:15 AM   #91
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NI S49 Mk1 has two lines of buttons:

Loop(lit white) RWD(nothing) FFW(nothing)
Play(Lit Green) Rec(Lit Red) Stop(Lit White)

Play is green when playing
When recording Play goes green and Record goes red.
While recording if you hit red again it pauses, hit it again and it continues to record, hit green and it pauses.
Loop is lit white when looping
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
was asking for use cases so thanks:
I think if you pause during recording, play is also active right? so if play button was also stop, clicking it would stop.
You're welcome, I'm happy if I can give some views to the matter. Well, now the way play, stop and pause currently behave. If you hit Pause, Play is indeed waiting on the background, ready to go. This is also indicated by lighted up Play and Pause buttons. Hitting either one again will continue playback or recording.

Having Play and Stop on the same button makes things a bit more complicated: hitting Pause can't keep Play waiting on the background to be initiated, hitting Play/Stop at this stage must actually stop playback or recording.

So we would have to change how Play acts when Pause is initiated. When you hit Pause, Play/Stop goes into state where it doesn't wait playback, but will actually initiate Stop if pressed. And paused playback/recording would only continue by hitting Pause again. Two reasons why this is not a good solution. First is that it breaks how Play and Pause currently work together. The other one is, how would you indicate the play/pause conditions on buttons to make it clear what is the current state and what will happen when they are pressed?

Would you make the Play/Stop button change to a highlighted Stop icon whenever Pause is pressed and maybe indicate on the Pause button that it will be the one to continue playback?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
what happens on stop and where pause comes in is part 2 of the discussion, which happens after part 1 is sorted
Ah, well, I was getting ahead of myself there...
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Old 07-21-2019, 09:52 AM   #93
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Naturally a modern only possible in software option might break some expectations tho has the opportunity to to be 'smart' and ultimately be More Intuitive.

I dont want to get too in the weeds but wanted thoughts on the possibility of play morphing to stop during (all kinds of) playback, as a way to solve the issue of where to have the stop button!

Ultimately if stop is next to play and sized appropriately am happy
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Old 07-21-2019, 11:26 AM   #94
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Just out of interest, which controllers have an order other than back - forward - stop - play - record? I can't find any.
There seem to be differences even between models of the same brand, especially along the times. But speaking of just controllers, many if not most of modern examples do have similar arrangement, depending...

PreSonus Faderport V2/Faderport 16
Loop-Rewind-Fast Forward
Stop-Play/Pause-Record
Controls arranged in two rows, Play/Pause a single button, Rewind & Fast Forward together for Return to Zero.

IconQ ProX
Rewind-Fast Forward-Loop-Stop-Play-Record
No separate Pause control, but you'll get the "golden trio".

Mackie MCU Pro
Rewind-Fast Forward-Stop-Play-Record
No separate Loop & Pause controls, Stop-Play-Record there.

Steinberg CC121
Previous-Rewind-Fast Forward-Next
Loop-Stop-Play-Record
Two rows, no Pause, Stop-Play-Record there.

Native Instruments Maschine MK3
Restart/Loop-Erase-Tap-Follow
Play-Record-Stop-Shift
Two rows, additional features but no similar RWD or FF, no Pause.

There are some more DAW specific controllers, for example Akai ones, which have their own arrangement. Missing some specific controls, but then again having freedom to set them up many different ways too. The examples I chose here actually highlight the kind of similarities they nowadays have, an understandable point to base arguments for. I did say earlier that there are some common ways transport buttons are arranged. Naturally I could add that even more so, when talking only about the trio of Stop-Play-Record. But here we are still looking at all the controls available in Reaper too, not just those three, and how they work and interact.
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:22 AM   #95
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http://www.proaudioeurope.com/info/w.../11/A820-2.jpg
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:00 AM   #96
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let's just try and appease the video editor while we're at it :P
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Old 08-09-2019, 08:03 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post


This would be fine. Except that I have been repeatedly ask to make loop state as obvious as possible right next to the play button. I believe that is, amongst others, a PT thing ...and I solve it in my personal themes by doing lots of tarty things that aren't appropriate for the Reaper def. I can either say no to those people, or to these people.

After discussion, I made a decision. Is the decision done? No, further discussion is always welcome. But the discussion would need to be persuasive rather than shouty.

To, again, try to bring you up to speed with opinions and discussions had with other well informed Reaper users (that's people like you all, whose opinions I am reflecting, to you ...this isn't some designer doing what he wants): Pause in Reaper behaves like Stop elsewhere. Stop behaves like Stop + RTZ. MY previous attempt to contain this (stop and pause either side of play) didn't get it done, and separated from Record.

Stop is always next to Play, except in Reaper stop isn't stop. Record plays without needing to press play. We don't have an RTZ button. Tape recorders don't have loop. The ideation that this is a tape recorder is broken already, and not by me, and only remains useful for as much as it is useful, and that is an entirely subjective matter. It just is. Yes it is. No, let me stop you there, yes it is. It is. Yes, yes it is.



As a fellow Brit, perhaps you will understand the clarification that this is the character my work attitude is sometimes compared to by my colleagues:





Did you just try to threaten me?
Hi, White Tie!!

Today when opening a file in MIDI and viewing the transport buttons I had this idea ....
The MIDI Transport 'Stop, Pause and Repeat' buttons, their positions follow the REAPER Main Transport. See the Pic

What do you think?.

So when you go to MIDI, the buttons will be in the same position as the Transport Main.
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Old 08-11-2019, 04:12 AM   #98
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For what it is worth, as far as I am concerned, an improvement overrules old ways/standards if it works better/faster or what evs, have to follow an old standard sounds limited somehow, but, I get it, yes yes...
Pause to me is a handbrake to let go so I can make my noob maxmix from the other cassette.

I may sjaddapp now, thx.
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