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Old 06-26-2018, 07:42 PM   #1
sjs94704
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Default I'm working on 'In The Air Tonight' by Phil Collins

I have the song pre-recorded by individual instruments and I am singing to the song. I am first EQing the music before I start singing.

At different points throughout the song, different instruments get 'highlighted', even just for a few notes and sit in front of the mix for just a second or two.

When those instances happen, I was just wondering if it is just volume or EQ or the use of a limiter, or a combination of a few of them? And, is the decision of what to use subjective based on the circumstance or the instrument?
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Old 06-26-2018, 07:46 PM   #2
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Please render the tracks and post the instrumental song so we can hear.
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Old 06-26-2018, 08:09 PM   #3
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Default Here is the rendered song

I always have a hell of a time figuring out how to post attachment directly on this site, so here is a link to my Audiomack profile and to this song specifically.

I did not put any VSTs of any kind at all on this entire song. This is the way I get it from the website I bought and downloaded it from:

https://audiomack.com/song/bayside_s...r-tonight-test
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:38 PM   #4
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Ok. I had a listen to the song.

The different instruments that get 'highlighted' seem to be an increase in volume. This is totally normal and useful because it makes the song more dynamic. Otherwise it would be boring and un-eventful.

If I was recording vocals using these instrumental tracks I would, at first, do NOTHING to them -- leave them as they are.

I would record my vocals and mix them in.

As I was mixing them in, I would listen to see if the overall tone of the vocals clash with that of the instruments. This can happen if your microphone records something brighter or darker, dull, harsh, etc. I would then decide to either EQ my vocals to merge with the tone, color, etc or the instruments, or EQ the instruments to fit my vocals. Or maybe change both... The goal of EQ would be to trick the listener to think everything was recorded at the same studio with the same type of gear, etc.

I would then compress my vocals, add reverb and delay. Phil's vocal production seems to have some sort of slap and perhaps plate reverb (I'm guessing because the vocal sounds a bit phasy like an artificial room or something -- or if not plate reverb then some chorus is doing something...).

In some places the song has significant delay (e.g The air tonight - night, night, night... Oh Lord --- lord, lord, lord, lord, etc.). This required automation of the delay. Myself, I prefer to create a duplicate of the vocal and work the delay automation on that track.

"Well I remember" -- and some other places, has some really funky vocal effect. I would create a duplicate track of my vocals (yes another one) and experiment. I would probably start with EQ (remove everything lower than 1K and everything above 5K), then I would add some serious flanger and take it from there...

Hmmm... I don't know how much attention to details you need, but mixing and producing a song that is comparable is going to be a really fun and challenging adventure. I love doing this sort of stuff. It required lots of experimenting and knowledge on how to dial in various FX to accomplish certain jobs. Also automation and careful listening. If you ZIP all the tracks (including vocals) I'd be willing to help you test out a few ideas?

You can also keep it simple and just mix in your EQ'd, compressed, and reverb'd vocals with the other instruments and then glue them together. It would become your own sound.
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:01 PM   #5
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Default Thank You! ........ I do have a followup question ...

You said to do NOTHING to these instruments. I am not disputing what you're saying, but, what I can tell you from working with other songs from the same website is that when I did EQ the instruments it seemed to bring out the 'details' of the sound of the instruments. What is your opinion about this?

Or, am I understanding you to say to EQ the instruments only 'as needed' once the vocals are recorded?

I suppose, however, that the tracks as I get them have some processing on them. Does it sound like that to you?
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Old 06-26-2018, 10:46 PM   #6
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You said to do NOTHING to these instruments. I am not disputing what you're saying, but, what I can tell you from working with other songs from the same website is that when I did EQ the instruments it seemed to bring out the 'details' of the sound of the instruments. What is your opinion about this?

Or, am I understanding you to say to EQ the instruments only 'as needed' once the vocals are recorded?

I suppose, however, that the tracks as I get them have some processing on them. Does it sound like that to you?
Record vocals first, then EQ as needed.

Yes EQing will change the perception of the loudness of the instruments. This is why most people will say to EQ an instrument while listening to the song - EQ within the context.

Compression will also change the perception of everything. Some people like to compress first then EQ, other the other way around. Some EQ, compress, then EQ again.

One thing I have noticed on my own is that when I do the final compression on the entire mix I often get nasty surprises. For example I will hear the S's of the vocals louder. This is very aggravating. This is why some people will either try to not overdo the final compression of the mix (or not even compress at all) and=or others will MIX INTO the final compressor. In other words they will add the final compression on the masterbus and then go back to the tracks and touch up the EQ and other FX.

Anyway you slice or dice it you will always have to listen carefully to what is coming out at the end and find the best way to deal with everything.

I think in your situation the main thing is to record a very good vocal track, put some audio makeup on it (EQ, compression;, etc) to make it more pretty, and then take it from there. Focus everything around the vocal track. The vocal track is the KEY !!!
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:18 AM   #7
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Default Thank You so much! I think what has happened for me is .....

I have been learning by watching videos on YouTube. While they are great videos, there are very few that are a complete from beginning to end mixing session that shows how to do this stuff and in the suggested order that the person making the video does it!

So, I've been getting bits and pieces of the puzzle of mixing and it has been a struggle to put them together in a way that makes sense.

Maybe there are videos out there that are an entire mixing session, but, I guess I just have not found one yet. If you know of one that is in Reaper and not some other DAW, please let me know. now, yes, I know that I could watch videos not in Reaper, but, I just want to know if one is out there.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:38 AM   #8
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I've not seen this, but it is a start-to-finish mix tutorial in REAPER: http://www.kennymania.com/product/mixing-in-reaper/
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:27 AM   #9
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There's a newer and longer mixing in reel time video by Kenny that is currently part of a bundle offer for $30. Not sure the other vides would be as useful for you but at $30 the bundle is cheaper than the single Mixing with Reaper video.

https://www.groove3.com/promo/the-mix-and-master-bundle
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:47 PM   #10
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Default I want to thank RDBOIS and also say ...

RDBOIS, thanks for your help and advice.

I think a lot of my self-imposed challenges have been that I realized I have been obsessing about this -18 on the meter stuff. That is because they say it leaves lots of head room. At the moment, per RDBOIS's advice, I took ALL VSTs off of all my instrument tracks. Since I have no need to put much processing on these tracks, I have bumped up the volume of the individual instrument tracks to around -12 to -6. Of course I'm being mindful not to let them clip! Duh ??!!??!!

If I put any VST on the tracks it will be a GAIN VST that I got from Blue Cat's Audio. Or, should I be using a limiter?

Doing that clearly has made a difference and I can better understand what you mean about the fact that the tracks need no EQ processing because I'm sure there is already some on the tracks already.

Just so you know where these tracks I buy and to see this song, go to:
http://www.karaoke-version.com/custo...r-tonight.html

Once you get to this site, click on the tab called CUSTOM BACKING TRACK. In the search box you can put the title of any song you want, but if you put 'In The Air Tonight', you will see a list of the tracks for the song. When I click on the 'S' button for each track it allows me to download them individually as MP3 files. I then import them into a project and move forward from there!

When it comes to EQing, I have found several videos on YT that are helping me begin to understand how to properly use EQ and everything associated with that.

I also appreciate the suggestions of the beginning - to - end mixing courses that were suggested. I will look into them! THANK YOU! to everyone who has contributed to all of my questions!

-Steven
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Old 06-28-2018, 03:33 AM   #11
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Default OK, check this out! Your feedback please

As I have posted before, I am just learning and I've been working on the song. I posted it on my Audiomack site for your review. The instruments included in this mix are:
  • Drums ****
  • Bass
  • Lead Electric Guitar
  • Arr. Electric Guitar ****
  • Electric Piano ****
  • Organ ****
  • Synthesizer ****
  • Synth Ambient
  • Strings ****

As per previous advise, I took all processing off of each instrumental track except for a GAIN in order to maintain control of the volume of each track. Since I have almost no VSTs on these tracks I bumped the volume of the individual tracks up to around -12. The overall volume is then controlled by a BUSS.

At exactly 13.1.38 / 0:24:192 is when I lower the volume on the Music BUSS. I did that because that is where the singer begins to sing.

What I did do is turn on the VOLUME envelope for each track and for each one in the list above that has 4 stars next to it, at some point, even maybe for just a few notes, I simply bumped up the volume.

So, where do you think I should consider putting some EQ? And, what about overall volume of each instrument? Anything out of place meaning too loud or soft?

You can find the songs here:

'In The Air Tonight' - WITHOUT vocal:
https://audiomack.com/song/bayside_s...-without-vocal

'In The Air Tonight - WITH vocal:
https://audiomack.com/song/bayside_s...test-6-28-2018

THIS VOCAL IS NOT ME! It is the guide vocal that came with the song when I bought it!
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Old 06-28-2018, 09:32 AM   #12
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http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/pr...h-padgham/2948

https://www.mixonline.com/recording/...tonight-365521

ns
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Old 06-28-2018, 10:26 AM   #13
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Default Thanks Nightscope ....

That helps me with lots of background information on the song as well as aspects of the sound that was trying to be achieved.

I will study these articles in more detail soon .....

I am in no way trying to 'be' Phil Collins here, I'm just singing one of his songs but making it my own!

Just for fun, in my home studio I have my webcam set up with some lighting and am recording myself singing and replacing the audio on the webcam with the audio from reaper using my VideoPad editing software I got from NCH software.

I use the background information to help me decide what photos to incorporate into my videos.

I can do a much better job now at mixing the music than I did when I produced this including the fact that I should have used reaTune where needed in my vocal, but here is a link to one of my first videos. It will just give you the idea of my ultimate goal of what I am up to. I am learning lots about video production as well. With that, I am going to try singing the song a few times and video myself from different angles and then merge it all together. YES! Lots of work, but, I am by myself and it is the fun of it that makes it worth it, right? ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnj9...YYp5CIdUd3NOMX

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Old 06-28-2018, 05:50 PM   #14
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What's your vocal range? Collins' high tenor was what the song was built around, and if you're a bit lower, it might not be the right song to do.

Just by way of interest...

The specific gated compression sound on that track was "invented" by accident and thereafter became "a thing". In fact, for most of the early '80s, you heard it everywhere. Too often, some might say. It can cause problems in a mix.
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Old 06-28-2018, 07:26 PM   #15
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Default My vocal range is .......

I guess I would say I fit in as a lower ranger tenor / high range bass, if that makes sense.

Just to be clear, I can hit some high notes, just not too high. I can also hit some low notes, just not too low!
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Old 06-29-2018, 07:28 AM   #16
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Tenor range is actually surprisingly high. The vast majority of adult males are natural baritones, though they can reach into tenor range to some degree.

Placido Domingo is the most famous example of many singers who have switched between tenor and baritone roles through their career. But that involves a lot of technical work.

I've had very frustrating experiences with singers wanting to do songs that they like but aren't right for them. Range, style, vocal quality, personality, emotional click, etc. Quite often, people want to sing really tricky songs when they can barely pitch Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.

It's especially difficult if they want the original arrangement - if you have the opportunity to change things you at least have a chance. But the original proposition is still flawed.

Have you noticed how many covers are done these days (especially in advertising) with wishy washy arrangements to accommodate a trendy vocalist singing like they've just been punched in the guts? Or feebly bleating actually, rather than singing. Some of these people would sing Highway to Hell like they're about to collapse from low blood sugar...

Not that singing a song has to come down to doing an accurate impersonation. It just has to be right for you. And please take it from an old hand - sometimes the singer isn't the best judge of that.
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Old 06-29-2018, 09:22 AM   #17
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Tenor range is actually surprisingly high. The vast majority of adult males are natural baritones, though they can reach into tenor range to some degree.

Placido Domingo is the most famous example of many singers who have switched between tenor and baritone roles through their career. But that involves a lot of technical work.

I've had very frustrating experiences with singers wanting to do songs that they like but aren't right for them. Range, style, vocal quality, personality, emotional click, etc. Quite often, people want to sing really tricky songs when they can barely pitch Twinkle Twinkle Little Star.

It's especially difficult if they want the original arrangement - if you have the opportunity to change things you at least have a chance. But the original proposition is still flawed.

Have you noticed how many covers are done these days (especially in advertising) with wishy washy arrangements to accommodate a trendy vocalist singing like they've just been punched in the guts? Or feebly bleating actually, rather than singing. Some of these people would sing Highway to Hell like they're about to collapse from low blood sugar...

Not that singing a song has to come down to doing an accurate impersonation. It just has to be right for you. And please take it from an old hand - sometimes the singer isn't the best judge of that.
I agree.

If you impersonate you have to do it really well, but if you decide to go sideways and create your own interpretation, best you go real hard sideways. If you just change it up a little bit some people will see it as 'failing to impersonate properly'. If you change a rock song to a country song then it is clear, for example.

Having said that, most amateurs are doing cover songs for fun and/or educational purposed. And therefore it doesn't matter so much what other people think of the performance. Fun is fun, personal and great.

Myself I do cover songs for educational purposes. Getting up close and personal with a song can teach me about song arrangement, instrument and tone selection (i.e. dialing in a precise sound type and color), usage of FXs, mixing strategies, learning how to sing, and overall song production. I can then apply what I have learned to my own productions. I also do it for fun.

It has to be fun.

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Old 06-29-2018, 09:56 AM   #18
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rdbois:

Sure. Hey, if it isn't fun you can always go and get a job in a bank...

But while it may be instructive and interesting to experiment, no amount of mix wizardry can fix a situation where the vocal simply isn't right for a stock backing. And often writing a new arrangement to fit an inappropriate vocal changes the feel so much that it isn't worth it.

I very occasionally sing on gigs and I generally veer towards the impersonation angle. Doing "your version" just for the sake of it fails more often than it comes off.

Heaven knows, in my days as a music reviewer I was subjected to enough of that... A loungey bossa tribute to Led Zepp - ffs, why? Oh, why not - but why?
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:09 AM   #19
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rdbois:

Sure. Hey, if it isn't fun you can always go and get a job in a bank...

But while it may be instructive and interesting to experiment, no amount of mix wizardry can fix a situation where the vocal simply isn't right for a stock backing. And often writing a new arrangement to fit an inappropriate vocal changes the feel so much that it isn't worth it.

I very occasionally sing on gigs and I generally veer towards the impersonation angle. Doing "your version" just for the sake of it fails more often than it comes off.

Heaven knows, in my days as a music reviewer I was subjected to enough of that... A loungey bossa tribute to Led Zepp - ffs, why? Oh, why not - but why?
Why? Because it is fun:

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Old 06-29-2018, 10:21 AM   #20
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Quote:
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A loungey bossa tribute to Led Zepp - ffs, why? Oh, why not - but why?
Aww cmon Dread Zeppelin FTW!



Sorry I'ma stop jacking your thread riiiight... now!
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Old 06-29-2018, 11:46 AM   #21
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Default I am not trying to duplicate anyone, but, ........

where the 'fun' comes in for me is to find out as best I can what FX were used on the vocal and get at least close so that I can make the song my own and sign my own interpretation of the song.

I'm actually working on making YT videos out of all of this. Recording the music and me singing on my webcam and then merging that with the actual music and my vocal as it is heard through Reaper.

When doing a video I also research the background of the song and try to put a slideshow together with video of me that is relevant to the topic of the song.

All in good fun!
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Old 07-02-2018, 05:52 AM   #22
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To be clear, I'm not saying all retread covers are bad, just that sometimes there isn't a good reason for them and the result is inappropriate and silly.

Jazzers are often guilty of this. "Hey, let's do Round Midnight as a fast mambo in 7/8" "Er, let's not..."

I like the chacha version of Diamond Life - it fits. But then the original was Latin jazzy to start with.

No comment on the lounge reggae Stairway to Heaven - that song is the reason I wear headphones when I pop into guitar shops and communicate with the staff in hand signals...

But I'm sure Whole Lotta Love would sound good as deep dub.

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Old 07-02-2018, 05:58 AM   #23
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Incidentally, if anyone's curious, the way you can do a mambo in 7/8 is to skip the last beat on the two side of clave.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:15 AM   #24
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Default Drums .... Any ideas ??

In my case, I buy pre-recorded music and as far as the drums go, I get them it what is called a 'drum kit' meaning that the drums are not separated by each part of the drums and the entire drums are all on a single track, so, my challenge is volume control as well as EQ of each part.

I asked the vendor I get the music from if I can get the drums separated out, but they said at the moment they don't.

I am not a musician meaning I am not trained to play any instruments, but, I would love nothing more than to find a way to get the drums in separated parts.

Does anyone have any ideas how I might accomplish this that won't cost me a fortune, or, if there might be some kind of software or whatever that I can get or whatever?

My ultimate goal is that I want to make my drums be "FAT" but I have the challenge of everything being all on one track.

What should I do?
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:42 AM   #25
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Quote:
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In my case, I buy pre-recorded music and as far as the drums go, I get them it what is called a 'drum kit' meaning that the drums are not separated by each part of the drums and the entire drums are all on a single track, so, my challenge is volume control as well as EQ of each part.

I asked the vendor I get the music from if I can get the drums separated out, but they said at the moment they don't.

I am not a musician meaning I am not trained to play any instruments, but, I would love nothing more than to find a way to get the drums in separated parts.

Does anyone have any ideas how I might accomplish this that won't cost me a fortune, or, if there might be some kind of software or whatever that I can get or whatever?

My ultimate goal is that I want to make my drums be "FAT" but I have the challenge of everything being all on one track.

What should I do?
There are various ways to get audio drums to midi, and then use a drum sample plugin to get your sounds.

How you do it depends on your budget and needs. If you could get the midi from the company, then that would save a lot of time.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:57 AM   #26
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Default Midi files would be awesome, but, not possible right now....

In case anyone is interested to see exactly what I'm working with, here is a link to the WAV files to the song "In The Air Tonight". I put them up on my Dropbox account.

The company I get them from says they are already mixed and so any additional EQing etc. should not be needed, BUT, when I play with them I find that EQing does a lot to bring out the sounds of at least a few of these tracks.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ven00hvuw...ZcL8JiRQa?dl=0
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:52 AM   #27
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Default UPDATE: Drums - about as close as I'm gonna get

What I have is MEqualizer which is part of a FREE bundle from Melda Productions. However, it only has 6 bands. BUT, what it does have is like a map that shows the area of the EQ where each of the parts of the drums sits.

In order to make this happen it will take 8 bands. So, I went to the trusty reaEQ that I can put as many bands as I need.

I am not a drum player so these all might be wrong, but, here is what I have so far. If anyone can suggest any changes, please let me know. My main challenge was what type of band they should be so these are total guesses.

So, the question remains, what can anyone suggest I use as a plugin to 'fatten up' the drums?
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Old 08-10-2018, 09:02 AM   #28
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"Fat" usually indicates bass frequencies. Trouble is, with all the drums on one stereo track, fattening up the bass drum could make the snare sound too tubby, or fattening up the snare could make the bass drum sound too muddy, etc...
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