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Old 08-18-2019, 04:52 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
related to grand staff, a point of nonsense is the always-taught description of "common meter" or "common time" with the indicator "C". I wonder if anyone here knows what the "C" really, originally means. And it's not an abbreviation for "common."

All the 10,000 variations of "dummy's guide" or "easy intro piano" are simply wrong.

the bizarre thing about the complete lack of truth in the teaching is that there is seemingly no explanation for why/where/how the error started, or how the error continues to be taught. it's as if no one really cares what it really means symbolically.
I think that C comes from the roman word Compas, which means "measuring time" or "time-ruler" or "tempo (time-change-measure)". Not entirely sure though...
Error is too strong, it was more of a authoritative imposition of views and practices.
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Old 08-18-2019, 06:16 PM   #282
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Lines in general are so medieval - so clumsy and distracting, but... since we do not have unique names and symbols for the noteheads in standard staff, guess they are the necessary reference points... well, lines. Doing those by hand is a real pain in the butt.
This standard staff is awful to write by hand as any other notation that requires such lines or redundant clumsy elements.
Unique symbols offers no real benefit over lines and spaces. The complexity is only being shifted from one from to another. And I would think that anyone here could knock up a staff using a ruler or a messier one without a ruler. But I do like single line notation for it's efficiency and directness of using note names rather than note symbols, and I like the octave per line or space approach.
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:25 PM   #283
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Here is a play on the grand staff. It uses six lines with dashed 'C' lines. It is actually a repeating three line layout. It doesn't use much more space than the standard staff, but I think it has improved visual separation. Notice that 'B' floats, which is the only extra space used. The blank space between staffs isn't accurate. It is just there to show space for ledgers. Ledger lines would follow the same pattern using a dashed line for 'C'. https://i.imgur.com/qPdbZqs.png
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:43 PM   #284
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Maybe an odd thought...? A modular block staff. Each block is a bar or less. Use blocks of staff as needed. No ledgers required. A block contains C through B, plus sharps, flats, naturals. F line is dashed. Good visual separation. Each block should be marked by octave (C4, Oct. 1, whatever): https://i.imgur.com/Ip6b0Bk.png

Edit: Updated
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:35 AM   #285
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Saying that naming each note or giving each of the 12 their own unique symbols (shape, letter... doesn't matter...) is like saying, you do not need some of the letters in your alphabet (your language).

You have to explain why? Not just say that you do not see any benefits, not like it. What benefits would you like to see?
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:00 AM   #286
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Here I will try to defend to some extent the role of the so called C note as a so called "octave" range divider.

If look at the "known" reference A4 = 440 Hz
(which is questionable and not so well defined by anything, but that is another topic)

please, have a look at the following frequency chart for the notes (tones in Music 12-TET system):




You can immediately see that note C at some point equals 256 cycles per second. Let's leave the physics aside for now, though I will explain its role further down (what is a second? and why?).

We know that on average the human hearing range is between 20 ~ 20 000Hz (cycles, repetitions per second of a vibrating object or medium).
Nothing stops us from finding humans who can hear as low as 16Hz or 32Hz - I hope you see where this is going. Because 20Hz is more suitable to note E (under A=440Hz) - if this is where should we start dividing our note ranges.

Tone Frequency chart - link

Lets take the radical approach though. The absolute reference point!
0Hz means total silence, at rest. Then 1Hz would be our note, unit note we might call it. Then 2Hz would be its "octave" (inappropriate term in this case). Then 4Hz, then 8Hz, then... 16Hz... then 32Hz. Ha!
What do we have here, please look at the chart in the link C = 32.70Hz - quite close! Lets continue.
32 × 2 = 64 × 2 = 128 × 2 = 256Hz

In any step we will fall between what we know as B and C notes. So, there is the separator.

Here comes the bad design part though... because the standard piano keyboard is a mess!

By pure visual means, on the piano keyboard we've got two point (keys) of symmetry (well, because there are two different rows of two different group of keys by colour, shape size and position in space!).
One point of symmetry belongs to the key for the note D, and the other (on the black keys) is 6 (= 12 : 2) "semi-tones" ("half-steps"?!) above (or below), resulting on the key for the note Ab (G#). Well it is the black one... in the middle... of the sub-group of three black keys.


Symmetry - video link (only about D though)

So, by pure visual means the "octave" separator on the piano should have been either D or Ab (G#) (tritone apart).

So there you have it - multiple views and results for a single problem.

Later I will try to explain how this works in the Plain (Pashkuli) notation System.
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Old 08-19-2019, 06:55 AM   #287
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I never really understood the names of chord functions. It seems that there are implied meanings, but I don't know what they are.
Learn parallel diatonic harmony, it will reveal itself.

Quote:
There are tons of examples where language of a system causes confusion (and
The major problem, pun intended, is treating "music theory" as "music rules" when it's not. It's just labels. In turn people want to stick things together based on syntax "this is major, so it must go together with this other thing that's called major". There are different contexts, and an overall bias towards Indo-European classical music.

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artificial barriers). But sticking to music here, how about the names of the modes? Are the modes not functional as well? Then why continue with
The original Greek "modes" are not 1:1 equivalent to Indo-European nomenclature. As a label for chord function relative to a song I think they're just as good as any other name.

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the archaic naming that describes nothing logical/functional? We might be better off describing them as the first mode, second mode, etc. And the same
Theoretically out of context we would, but with an ancient, archaic name that you don't encounter daily it works better IMO as a differentiator.

There are people who are numerologists that would prefer a "base 12" system, "because it's logical". Except it's not, because it's not *practical*.

Labels allow humans to do sub-conscious parallel processing. They're like objects, structs in programming. Without the labels it gets impractical to discuss or manipulate.



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Maybe some people like the aesthetics of these naming conventions, but they are vague or meaningless in reasoning.
They are, if you're not aware of the context, then they're just labels WITH meaning.

Again, the overlap of "major/minor", relative to the Indo-European bias, makes it confusing. If you only studied "European pop music between the years 1680 to 1810" it would make complete sense.
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Old 08-19-2019, 07:02 AM   #288
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total elitism attitude. "meh, a person capable of performing the prelude can hear the difference. you dont need anything else, if you can't hear it...tooooo bad"
Yep. It is absolutely elitism. How 'bout them apples?



YOU CAN'T PLAY IT ACCURATELY IF YOU CAN'T HEAR IT.

If you can't hear the difference between 2 renditions, *you're not going to be able to reproduce the difference*.

Please note the difference between being able to hear something and to play something. I have written that to PLAY it you have to be able to hear the difference. That is NOT the same as being able to HEAR it.

In the real world, it's not the instruction's fault that you can't play something like Rostropovich. It is up to YOU to play as well as Rostropovich, which is extremely unlikely.


That is, indeed, elitism: Rostropovich, Casals, Yo-Yo Ma are ELITE musicians. What they add to the written music cannot be perfectly transcribed, only approximated.

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why does the idea of improving current notation seem so threatening to you?
Because it's gonna take muh gunz?
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:20 AM   #289
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Saying that naming each note or giving each of the 12 their own unique symbols (shape, letter... doesn't matter...) is like saying, you do not need some of the letters in your alphabet (your language).

You have to explain why? Not just say that you do not see any benefits, not like it. What benefits would you like to see?
If we keep everything about standard notation and only throw out the system of 7 letters and modifiers (sharp, flat, natural) in trade for a system of 12 letters, the staff notation grows by alot. In the 7 letters and modifiers system, we can represent multiple pitches per line or space of the staff. If instead we give each of the 12 pitches it's own letter, now we have to dedicate a line or space per pitch.

Ok. Let's throw out the staff in trade for octave rows. Now all 12 pitches of an octave are represented on a single row. If we want a different octave, we only need a new row above or below. That's pretty nice. But how do we spell out chords in this notation without clashing with octave rows?

Also, having thrown out the dots, lines, and spaces, we have eliminated visual contours of dots (interval patterns) and stacked dots which represent chords (chord patterns), i.e., visual pattern recognition has been thrown away. It becomes not unlike looking at graphed sound waves vs. looking at the number sequences which make them up.

Of course, there are arguments against these points.
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:34 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
Learn parallel diatonic harmony, it will reveal itself.



The major problem, pun intended, is treating "music theory" as "music rules" when it's not. It's just labels. In turn people want to stick things together based on syntax "this is major, so it must go together with this other thing that's called major". There are different contexts, and an overall bias towards Indo-European classical music.



The original Greek "modes" are not 1:1 equivalent to Indo-European nomenclature. As a label for chord function relative to a song I think they're just as good as any other name.



Theoretically out of context we would, but with an ancient, archaic name that you don't encounter daily it works better IMO as a differentiator.

There are people who are numerologists that would prefer a "base 12" system, "because it's logical". Except it's not, because it's not *practical*.

Labels allow humans to do sub-conscious parallel processing. They're like objects, structs in programming. Without the labels it gets impractical to discuss or manipulate.





They are, if you're not aware of the context, then they're just labels WITH meaning.

Again, the overlap of "major/minor", relative to the Indo-European bias, makes it confusing. If you only studied "European pop music between the years 1680 to 1810" it would make complete sense.
Examples please. I could just as well tell someone who is interested in electronics: Well, if you go study particle physics you will understand conventional flow. But that tells the person nothing really, and it doesn't make the statement true. It only pushes the argument off elsewhere.
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:43 AM   #291
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Here comes the bad design part though... because the standard piano keyboard is a mess!

By pure visual means, on the piano keyboard we've got two point (keys) of symmetry (well, because there are two different rows of two different group of keys by colour, shape size and position in space!).
One point of symmetry belongs to the key for the note D, and the other (on the black keys) is 6 (= 12 : 2) "semi-tones" ("half-steps"?!) above (or below), resulting on the key for the note Ab (G#). Well it is the black one... in the middle... of the sub-group of three black keys.


Symmetry - video link (only about D though)
That is interesting. Thanks. It never struck me before.
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Old 08-19-2019, 09:29 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by brainwreck
If we keep everything about standard notation and only throw out the system of 7 letters and modifiers (sharp, flat, natural) in trade for a system of 12 letters, the staff notation grows by alot. In the 7 letters and modifiers system, we can represent multiple pitches per line or space of the staff. If instead we give each of the 12 pitches it's own letter, now we have to dedicate a line or space per pitch.
You know... That if we had named only 6 of the notes, and give the other 6 their sharp (♯), flat (♭), and natural (♮) symbols, we could've had reduced the staff to become even more compact vertically.

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Originally Posted by brainwreck
Ok. Let's throw out the staff in trade for octave rows. Now all 12 pitches of an octave are represented on a single row. If we want a different octave, we only need a new row above or below. That's pretty nice. But how do we spell out chords in this notation without clashing with octave rows?
Erm... the same way you start from the lowest note and stack them vertically. I know you would point out that doing it so will place the notes of the chords on a different row, hence - in a different octave range, correct? Well, not exactly because it would be:
1 - impossible to play
2 - they have grouping lines where also you coudl specify the root note and also if it is in a form of a [<chord> over a <base note>]
3 - spelling the chords can be done in a usual horizontal writing (it is shown in the examples - photos)



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Originally Posted by brainwreck
Also, having thrown out the dots, lines, and spaces, we have eliminated visual contours of dots (interval patterns) and stacked dots which represent chords (chord patterns), i.e., visual pattern recognition has been thrown away. It becomes not unlike looking at graphed sound waves vs. looking at the number sequences which make them up.
Not sure what do you mean here...
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:06 AM   #293
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You know... That if we had named only 6 of the notes, and give the other 6 their sharp (♯), flat (♭), and natural (♮) symbols, we could've had reduced the staff to become even more compact vertically.


Erm... the same way you start from the lowest note and stack them vertically. I know you would point out that doing it so will place the notes of the chords on a different row, hence - in a different octave range, correct? Well, not exactly because it would be:
1 - impossible to play
2 - they have grouping lines where also you coudl specify the root note and also if it is in a form of a [<chord> over a <base note>]
3 - spelling the chords can be done in a usual horizontal writing (it is shown in the examples - photos)




Not sure what do you mean here...
We could use any arbitrary number of letters and modifiers, but it makes sense to use 7 letters for diatonic based music.

To be clear to others about what we are talking about here, a link to the Plain Notation System: http://musicnotation.org/wiki/plain-notation-system/

How for example do you differentiate between these two chord shapes in Plain Notation? (guitar tablature)

Code:
----0
-----
-----
2----
2---2
3---3
What I mean by throwing out visual patterns, is that with dots on lines and spaces, there are common vertical spacings between dots across all keys. Sight-readers learn to recognize those patterns, reading pitch in vertical patterns rather than only in pitch names (or pitch symbols). For example, the horizontal move from root to third has a specific spacing between dots, and the dot spacings of triads has a specific spacing pattern. In a single line system, these visual patterns are thrown away. See for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8emRWuhw1ws&t=4m34s

Edit: Changed video url (better example)
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:33 AM   #294
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It makes sense to use 7 letters for diatonic based music.
No it doesn't. It does only if you play the 'A minor / C major' natural scales (and modes off of them). Any other tonality or transposition would require "the unnamed" notes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck
To be clear to others about what we are talking about here, a link to the Plain Notation System: http://musicnotation.org/wiki/plain-notation-system/
This is slightly old. Thanks for reminding me to update it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck
How for example do you differentiate between these two chord shapes in Plain Notation? (guitar tablature)

Code:
----0
-----
-----
2----
2---2
3---3
Ok. I will assume you are using standard tuning for that guitar (E-A-D-G-B-E low to high) and also that those chords are whole note chords, so that would be Emin in standard and non-standard inversions respectively. So here you have them in Pashkuli:


tell me if you'd like them with other duration. Also note that the red line shows the "octave-range" (renova) separator; also signifies the root at the same time (bult-in).
Edit: Sorry, I forgot the range lines over and under the chord root note letter (L in this case), but you can always write them on.

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Originally Posted by brainwreck
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8emRWuhw1ws&t=4m34s
Edit:Changed video url (better example)
How does it look with min second or 11th? How can you possibly read 11th!?
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:39 AM   #295
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No it doesn't. It does only if you play the 'A minor / C major' natural scales (and modes off of them). Any other tonality or transposition would require "the unnamed" notes.


This is slightly old. Thanks for reminding me to update it.



Ok. I will assume you are using standard tuning for that guitar (E-A-D-G-B-E low to high) and also that those chords are whole note chords, so that would be Emin in standard and non-standard inversions respectively. So here you have them in Pashkuli:


tell me if you'd like them with other duration. Also note that the red line shows the "octave-range" (renova) separator; also signifies the root at the same time (bult-in).


How does it look with min second or 11th? How can you possibly read 11th!?
Noteheads of 2nds flip direction. Yea... It isn't that bad though. 11th? Take a shot in the dark...

Where is the home / most up to date info about Pashkuli notation? Is there a full legend?
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:45 AM   #296
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Noteheads of 2nds flip direction. Yea... It isn't that bad though. 11th? Take a shot in the dark...
Ah, but it is still ambiguous - you have to know that is this way, otherwise I would play them as a second anyway. Again, additional requirement as unnecessary "knowledge" (clumsy nomenclature)
No, I want 11th! It is in extended inversions; I want to see it from any root note on the staff!


insane... this is ridiculous...

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Originally Posted by brainwreck
Where is the home / most up to date info about Pashkuli notation? Is there a full legend?
I work on video demos for the Pashkuli keyboard. Will update the notation on that same page you quoted above www.musicnotation.org
If you do not mind, can I include your request from this post as an example in the Plain Notation (Pashkuli)?
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:53 AM   #297
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Ah, but it is still ambiguous - you have to know that is this way, otherwise I would play them as a second anyway. Again, additional requirement as unnecessary "knowledge" (clumsy nomenclature)
No, I want 11th! It is in Xmaj7 inversions; I want to see it from any root note on the staff!


I work on video demos for the Pashkuli keyboard. Will update the notation on that same page you quoted above www.musicnotation.org
If you do not mind, can I include your request from this post as an example in the Plain Notation (Pashkuli)?
I don't disagree about 2nd and 11th.

Absolutely. I don't mind.

By the way, I'm still coming to terms with thinking about notation in 12 tones, so I do think Pashkuli is interesting. Any criticisms I have are part of trying to come to terms with what it's strengths and weaknesses are. And I really do like the single line notation, octave rows, and chord spelling. One thing that I haven't resolved with myself is how important are visual interval spacings of dots in standard notation. I mean for example, if you know the key spellings of standard notation, the letters C E G carries the same instantaneous meaning as dots spaced in thirds, and unique symbols could do the same.

In my opinion, some helpful things for your page on Pashkuli notation would be a complete notation legend; logical reasons for the various aspects of the notation design such as why single line, why these symbols, etc.; what you think are the strengths and weaknesses of the notation.
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Old 08-19-2019, 12:24 PM   #298
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I don't disagree about 2nd and 11th.
By the way, I'm still coming to terms with thinking about notation in 12 tones, so I do think Pashkuli is interesting. Any criticisms I have are part of trying to come to terms with what it's strengths and weaknesses are.
Why single line, why these symbols, etc.; what you think are the strengths and weaknesses of the notation.
What do you mean with "coming to terms with 12 tones"?

Honestly, if you'd like to have visual reference to how the melody flows, in Pashkuli you can simply add a wavy line above. As you can see with the example of wider intervals on the standard staff... It works probably to about a third... then it becomes arbitrary estimation like "it is up" or "it is down" from the previous note if they happen to fall in different bars, then this is even worse to guess exactly. You have to follow the sharp/flat per bar... it is a mess!

As I said above... if you learn the 12 symbols or letters, you will never mistaken which one is higher or lower from the previous, you will spot the intervals immediately - even any two intervals a few bars apart!

You never mistaken the months of the year and if you see them arranged randomly, you will know which two or three are "up or down" from one another!

Regarding the symbols and the names, I think it is pretty much obvious. Letters - latin alphabet starting from B, skipping the vowels and the crazy or harsh sounds like H, J, K, Q.
Shapes are very close to the actual letters for the corresponding note (except for F = Δ). You can spot them yourself, I think.
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:08 PM   #299
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At rehearsal, the musician says, "Play the five." That is really ambiguous and depends on a lot of context.
But I would say that if well communicated by the speaker, the context has always, when I've been present, made it not ambiguous. It depends on the context, but then the context serves to prevent ambiguousness.

I get what you're saying, and I do appreciate the desire to not stick with old language for a purpose it doesn't serve well. But I'm more or less in the camp that in the hands of good communicators there are far less issues than with a perfect language in the hands of less good communicators. When I'm with people who can express themselves well there's rarely any problems in musical communication, especially given that context is king.

If we beat into the heads of people how to convey the music clearly it may be better than changing the language so that the poor conveyers can keep trashing its revised form into submission.

Or maybe not.
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Old 08-19-2019, 01:53 PM   #300
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If we beat into the heads of people how to convey the music clearly, it may be better than changing the language.

Or maybe not.
So, what is the problem of learning to speak and understand at least one other language (I do it with 4).
Ah, time and dedication... and first of all - a will to do it (or maybe a lack of need).
Different paths of life, I guess. Why would you solve a problem, if you can not see the problem?!
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:20 PM   #301
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So, what is the problem of learning to speak and understand at least one other language (I do it with 4).
Ah, time and dedication... and first of all - a will to do it (or maybe a lack of need).
Different paths of life, I guess. Why would you solve a problem, if you can not see the problem?!
In addition to your ability and willingness to "speak" and "read" this new language, you'll have to convince the music-making public at large to do the same.

And then you'll have to convince software developers that it's worth their time to abandon what they've been doing for years to adapt to your new methodology.

And then you'll have to convince the publishers of sheet music to convert all of their existing material to this new methodology.

And then... well, you get the idea.

Even if there's a consensus among the REAPER community about a wonderful new way of communicating music as a language, there's going to be a huge uphill climb before it's accepted by the musical community at large, especially if you're going to go so far as to have a new naming scheme for chords, etc.

That's not to say you shouldn't be pursuing this a an intellectual exercise. It's been an interesting conversation to date and something interesting is bound to come out of it. But it's difficult to see this as anything that will go past these conversations.

If that makes me a Luddite or a naysayer, then so be it. In the meantime, think back on the previous comments made by others about the lack of adoption of Esperanto and (at least in the US) the metric system.
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Old 08-19-2019, 02:39 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by tls11823 View Post
In the meantime, think back on the previous comments made by others about the lack of adoption of Esperanto and (at least in the US) the metric system.
Maybe there is some kind of misunderstanding that my involvment to this thread or the OP is... to trying to convince someone to accept or convert their opinion about something.

Me, personally, I've got no time for that. I prefer making music, playing, doing CAD, friends, family, etc. That is why there is Internet - to share. As the eastern wisdom says...
"When the student is ready, the Master will come".
or
"Master, how long do we have to wait for the change to come?
If you wait, it will take a long time."


I see a problem. I solve it. Done. No time to wait.
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:07 PM   #303
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I see a problem. I solve it. Done. No time to wait.
So what's the best-case outcome of this discussion?
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:17 PM   #304
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What do you mean with "coming to terms with 12 tones"?

Honestly, if you'd like to have visual reference to how the melody flows, in Pashkuli you can simply add a wavy line above. As you can see with the example of wider intervals on the standard staff... It works probably to about a third... then it becomes arbitrary estimation like "it is up" or "it is down" from the previous note if they happen to fall in different bars, then this is even worse to guess exactly. You have to follow the sharp/flat per bar... it is a mess!

As I said above... if you learn the 12 symbols or letters, you will never mistaken which one is higher or lower from the previous, you will spot the intervals immediately - even any two the intervals a few bars apart!

You never mistaken the months of the year and if you see them arranged randomly, you will know which two or three are "up or down" from one another!

Regarding the symbols and the names, I think it is pretty much obvious. Letters - latin alphabet starting from B, skipping the vowels and the crazy or harsh sounds like H, J, K, Q.
Shapes are very close to the actual letters for the corresponding note (except for F = Δ). You can spot them yourself, I think.
I mean that the 7 pitches and basic note names of them is foundational in western music. Most everything is built on top of it. Yes, there really are 12, but from a western music perspective we can think of the other 5 as being ancillary to the 7. In other words, it isn't just a notation system. The notation system is integral to a bigger music system. I think that throwing out those 7 note names and modifiers isn't as trivial as it might seem on the surface. Now you need a naming system for scales, arpeggios, and chords, since for example, you no longer have any of the common elements of western music for saying F# minor 7.

My initial thoughts are that some key elements of Plain Notation would much better serve the music world as a modification to, or coexisting alternative to, standard notation rather than an entirely new notation system. The ideas of note rows, modal clefs, identifying intervals of chords, could be very helpful. But I think that the new syllables, letters, and symbols make much more sense to you personally than they will to the average musician.
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:23 PM   #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tls11823
So what's the best-case outcome of this discussion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok
That is why there is Internet - to share.
Share opinions, ideas... things you may not find in search engines every day prior to the publications in question.

Btw, Esperanto is not a good example, because it was a mixture, an amalgam of languages... a linguistic Frankenstein, if you will. It was not a new language, rather an attempt at unified language to please much more nations. (If you want to please everybody, you won't be able to please even a single person.)
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Old 08-19-2019, 03:26 PM   #306
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But I would say that if well communicated by the speaker, the context has always, when I've been present, made it not ambiguous. It depends on the context, but then the context serves to prevent ambiguousness.
The point here is that the language and notation itself should not be ambiguous. If possible and practical, it should transcend context. On that point specifically, I agree with AdXok on a 12 tone naming system. But I think there are other things to consider and weigh.
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Old 08-19-2019, 08:36 PM   #307
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I suppose this thread has about ran it's course. Thanks for all the discussion though. It's an oddly interesting topic.
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Old 08-19-2019, 09:47 PM   #308
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you'll have to convince the music-making public at large to do the same.
no one has to do any such thing. if you dont like it: bye.
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Old 08-19-2019, 09:59 PM   #309
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esperanto is a solid example of the success a new system can create and the naysayer who replied with the idea didn't even bother to read the link he included in his own objection (because 'well i never heard it so it must be a fail', yeah Not, facepalm):

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Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
This reminds me of Esperanto. It's supposed to be a "new and improved" language but I've never heard of anybody using it. The United Nations uses English. Formula 1 racing uses English, Air Traffic Control and International shipping uses English.


the article states the relatively new system is used by fans in over 100 countries, it is taught as a degree-credit language classes at Stanford, and can be learned in "much less than 1/4 the time of German, etc" (and if I were a languages major, I would certainly learn it based on these results!) :


Various educators have estimated that Esperanto can be learned in anywhere from one quarter to one twentieth the amount of time required for other languages. Claude Piron, an Esperanto-Activist and Chinese–English–Russian–Spanish translator for the United Nations, argued that Esperanto is far more intuitive than many ethnic languages: "Esperanto relies entirely on innate reflexes and differs from all other languages in that you can always trust your natural tendency to generalize patterns. ... The same neuropsychological law —called by Jean Piaget generalizing assimilation—applies to word formation as well as to grammar."
The Institute of Cybernetic Pedagogy at Paderborn University (Germany) has compared the length of study time it takes natively French-speaking high-school students to obtain comparable 'standard' levels in Esperanto, English, German, and Italian. The results were:
2,000 hours studying German
1,500 hours studying English
1,000 hours studying Italian (or any other Romance language)
150 hours studying Esperanto.


maybe those numbers are exaggerated, less than 1/10th the time? Yet a result of 1/4th the time is already good enough to prove success.

so yeah, let's hear more about a revamped music system which could improve the ease & quality of notation and be learned within "1/4 the time compared to the current western system." If it ends up being anywhere near that good, then it would definitely be beneficial.
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Old 08-19-2019, 10:25 PM   #310
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Here comes the bad design part though... because the standard piano keyboard is a mess!
...

So, by pure visual means the "octave" separator on the piano should have been either D or Ab (G#) (tritone apart).
I would guess that harpsichord players noticed this (melody created by pattern symmetry) and used it for writing music. On guitar there are players or instructors constantly suggesting, "unlock music by learning this newly discovered neck pattern" - which, some may be new, or likely recycled, or coincidentally in common with some geometry known before. There are entrenched camps of instructors or players who swear by only using one system of patterns (symmetry or similarity of shapes) over the other competing systems of patterns. An interesting part of piano is that it is usually not taught in terms of shapes- the piano material is nearly always chord-construction style ("play 1,3,5.. that's major.. now play 1,3,5 and add the 7..that's called etc etc...". If learning-by-shapes existed on piano (similarly as it is commonly done for guitar) then the piano books would be filled with dozens of pages of key-layout-diagrams with highlighted keys for various chord patterns of all combinations, inversions etc.

I don't know how today's newest players learn a matrix instrument like Novation Launchpad, whether it's by the LED patterns as a trainer, or by diagrams, or by row-column tablature, or what (for those performances which require it to be played, rather than using the pads as a set of sequence trigger, or using the pads as a scale). I guess the results of playing-performance on Launchpad would perhaps be a better comparison to the Pashkuli keyboard in terms of discussion of symmetry, learning by visual layout or visual cues, etc.
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:17 AM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck
I mean that the 7 pitches and basic note names of them is foundational in western music. Yes, there really are 12, but from a western music perspective we can think of the other 5 as being ancillary to the 7. I think that throwing out those 7 note names and modifiers isn't as trivial as it might seem on the surface. Now you need a naming system for scales, arpeggios, and chords, since for example, you no longer have any of the common elements of western music for saying F# minor 7.

But I think that the new syllables, letters, and symbols make much more sense to you personally than they will to the average musician.
I completely understand the essential meaning of those "7 note modes" (tonalities also in general) in the so called "Western" music. But music also evolves, new styles come out, new technical means of manipulating sound as well.

Also, even with a system based on '12-note names' one could still call them (scales, chords) whatever they like; be it a major, minor, bebop dominant, lydian dominant, happy, sad, mystic, locrian, ionian, aeolian, lydian, egyptian, hungarian, bulgarian, harmonic, melodic, biharmonic arabian... whatever it may be!
There are even scales named after people (composers or scholars of Music) - insane, but it doesn't matter!

List of Modes and Scales

When I compose something and try to write it down, and when those lines and accidentals and language alphabetical ordered letters appear... and it is just so meaningless.
And when I start learning it on a piano and have to place my thumbs on a black key, the rest of the fingers must wriggle through... some go deeper, some not... and my hand is like "ouch, ooops" having to change "patterns" for the same damn type of chord or scale.
It is just unbearable.

Those syllables and letters do not make much sense to me, because my first language is not English. Hence, I am not so attached to the """originals""" either (A, B, C... or De, Re, Mi). To me they were just randomly placed letters and syllables (before I understood from where they originate... and that made it even more puzzling for me when I was 14).
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Old 08-20-2019, 12:38 AM   #312
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I mean that the 7 pitches and basic note names of them is foundational in western music. Most everything is built on top of it.
yes it is foundational in western classical music (i.e. like Bach, Mozart, The Church etc)

no it is not foundational in western music of the past 100 years (and that was my point in the OP)


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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Yes, there really are 12, but from a western music perspective we can think of the other 5 as being ancillary to the 7.
no, this ended with jazz, modern classical, regular modal music.

the only thing now important about those 5 is that they have "more non-subtle perceptive" relation to the physical harmonics of the "home tone's" fundamental than the others.

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Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
In other words, it isn't just a notation system. The notation system is integral to a bigger music system.
don't mistake the importance of the physics (the fundamental's harmonics) with humankind's awkward notation system which attempts to symbolize the physics.



rather than continuing the (seemingly endless) philosophical & abstract stuff it would be far better to discuss aspects of the example from this thread: adXok's music system, specifically parts like: what was the background of the note name choice, have example charts been written with the chords to compare to a couple jazz standard in typical notation, what's a beatles' chart look like, how to easily notate the bass player's root (when it is altered from the notated chord played by the other parts, i.e. "C7/G"), etc.

If anyone wants to propose new ideas for notation, that would be great too, for example: what would it look like to reverse the current notation system's indicators for triads and 7th chords. Currently: G and G7. If the notation centered on 7th chords by default such that "G" indicated what's now G7, then how would "G" in the new system be altered notationally to then indicate a triad, or a minor, or a major-7th chord form. Why center the notation around a dominant 7th chord, and force other chords to add alternation symbols? Because: it could be considered the most important chord form, for the purposes of a new system. It is the most common chord form in jazz, for example, and that could be considered reason enough to center around it.

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Old 08-20-2019, 01:21 AM   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superblonde.org
what was the background of the note name choice, have example charts been written with the chords to compare to a couple jazz standard in typical notation, what's a beatles' chart look like, how to easily notate the bass player's root, etc.

Why center the notation around a dominant 7th chord, and force other chords to add alternation symbols? Because: it could be considered the most important chord form, for the purposes of a new system. It is the most common chord form in jazz, for example, and that could be considered reason enough to center around it.
The Dominant chord (G7 or X7 in general) is the most resonant chord, which provokes resonance to the whole tonal scale - even to notes outside of the 7-note form. Hence it was called Dominant.
In the standard Music "theory" it is said that "It causes tension and seeks resolution in the Tonic".
That is... meh. I mean, this has to do more with a certain style of music, style of cadences and the movement of the old modes (the one from the Mediterranean area, wrongly called 'greek modes'!). That is why the Dominant chord is good for modulations to other outside chords, other scale structures... (in 12 note system, that is).

I had singing in mind when named the notes as syllables as follows:
Bo, Da, Fe, Gu
Lo, Ma, Ne, Pu
Ro, Sa, Te, Vu

From the pictures attached in previous posts you can see that I deliberately omitted the vowels [i] (like in the word 'lick') and [ə] (like in the word 'lurk') - because they are the hardest to sing (of course in English you do not have a letter for [ə]... ok it is the one in brackets, but you do not use it (it is Latin though)! So with singing in mind.
Grouped by the vowels, they result in augmented arpeggios (Bo-Lo-Ro | Da-Ma-Sa...).

I have not posted it yet, but the chord structures can be derived from a specifically designed matrix, where the chords (in their root inversion) take the form of... Tetris blocks!
The big target like shapes give you the position of each note required and their corresponding inversions on the other side.
You place those shapes into the big Matrix (square) and go on from there. The left diagonal direction (bottom right to top left) of the Matrix is the Chromatic scale. You can find the other structures as well...
There had to be something "insane" about this system, so decided... well, why not.
Placing the X on a note letter from the matrix, gives you the notes for that chord. Haven't thought about rotating them... prob. won't work. Anyway...



Yellow are maj and maj7.
Orange is the Dominant.
Green are the min and min7.
Blue is augmented.
Grey is the half-diminished ø (and "Shades of Grey" dark and white are diminished).
*I am sure you can amend the 9th, 11th and 13th yourselves... not that difficult - just add the appropriate square where it belongs in the "tetris" block shape.

brainwreck made a request for some examples of inversions, so I think that was a good test for this. Writing the Beatles catalogue would be an overkill for me, or any Jazz standards.
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:02 AM   #314
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no one has to do any such thing. if you dont like it: bye.
So you're saying that you're going to come up with a new "standard" for notating music, but you don't care if anybody else uses it? So what then is the point, other than as an intellectual exercise?
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Old 08-20-2019, 07:57 AM   #315
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I don't know, I've never been totally comfortable with notation of any kind.
12 tone scales don't adequately describe the microtones between min3 and maj3, 4 and 5, and 7 and the tonic, which I use a lot in my blues and jazz playing.

I've settled on lyrics with chord names above to document song writing efforts, and occasional use of Nashville charts to record unusual timings.

To me, capturing on paper the depth and breadth of music on paper is akin to trying to draw a hypercube (a 4th dimensional cube) on paper - it fails to capture it adequately. It loses vital musical, emotional and spiritual depth.

So my operational solution is to capture it in .wav files, which have none of those limitations. And it allows other people to learn it and play it given sufficient effort, just as a music score does (just a different type of effort).
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Old 08-20-2019, 08:55 AM   #316
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OT: ^I love my micro tones. Just an aside that I don't think every single nuance should be communicated on paper. There needs to be some ambiguity and interpretation. If player A walks up to me and performs a piece, then player B walks up and performs the same piece, exactly 100% like the other, one of those players is redundant, like having two copies of the same WAV file.
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:07 AM   #317
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I like the tetris-looking idea.. it is just chords though, how would it apply to melody and rhythm
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:13 AM   #318
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Micro-tones (partial bends, rational bends) are beynd the scope of this discussion. I use them as well. Those are actually a structural part of non-western modes and scales (mainly eastern and far eastern). Our tones are not spot on perfect anyway, especially with some music instruments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tls11823
So you're saying that you're going to come up with a new "standard" for notating music, but you don't care if anybody else uses it? So what then is the point, other than as an intellectual exercise?
If I may answer it... Yes, it is not only for intellectual exercise. It has its practical applications as well. Please, refer to the Pashkuli Keyboard, I have designed (earliest pages of this thread).
There are many... many alternative notations with staff, lines, etc. and they are different, very different from the PNS (Pashkuli's Plain Notation System).

Other than that, many people seem to forget that besides practical, we as humans, sometimes need intellectual excercises and workouts as well. It is called progress:
· the process of changing or developing towards an improved situation or condition
· to improve or develop in skills, knowledge, ideas, etc.
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:28 AM   #319
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I like the tetris-looking idea.. it is just chords though, how would it apply to melody and rhythm
Apply the tetris-like shapes and Matrix? No, you can't. It is just a map legend for notes and chords in base (I) inversions. The notation is for rhythms and melodies (please, see the previous pages of this thread)
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Old 08-20-2019, 10:06 AM   #320
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Other than that, many people seem to forget that besides practical, we as humans, sometimes need intellectual excercises and workouts as well. It is called progress:
· the process of changing or developing towards an improved situation or condition
· to develop or change to an improved situation or condition
· to improve or develop in skills, knowledge, ideas, etc.
Fair enough. Have fun.
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