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Old 10-21-2021, 08:34 AM   #1
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Default v6.38+dev1021 - October 21 2021

v6.38+dev1021 - October 21 2021
  • * Includes feature branch: media item lanes
  • + Automation: fix editing automation items for FX parameters with inverted range [p=2489968]
  • # Linux: improve KWin fullscreen behavior
  • # Media item solo markers: feature branch removed for now
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode



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# Media item solo markers: [/COLOR][/b]feature branch removed for now
We will be bringing this functionality back, but more incrementally. It was too much to put out there all at once, it wasn't useful for either us or users to have so many things to react to. But thank you to everyone who spent time with the previous build.
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Old 10-21-2021, 08:39 AM   #2
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thank you schwa

hopefully we see it again sooner than later, seems like a BIG undertaking so it's understood.
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Old 10-21-2021, 08:46 AM   #3
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We will be bringing this functionality back, but more incrementally. It was too much to put out there all at once, it wasn't useful for either us or users to have so many things to react to. But thank you to everyone who spent time with the previous build.
Completely understandable. Just really excited you guys are working on this and I'm sure wherever you end up it's going to be amazing.
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Old 10-21-2021, 09:07 AM   #4
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It's a very specific request, but would it be possible to add an option to left drag Media Item mouse modifier to Move Item contents respecting the relative grid? That would be so much easier instead of having to enable Relative Grid every time we want to move item contents without losing the reference from the grid to the start of the file.
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Old 10-21-2021, 09:11 AM   #5
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# Linux: improve KWin fullscreen behavior
When I hit F11 now, the main REAPER window disappears entirely. (The floating windows I mentioned before do remain onscreen though.) Hitting F11 again brings back the titlebar, then I can close REAPER and start it again to make REAPER's main window visible.

Also those floating windows I mentioned (mostly under the "view" menu, such as Performance Meter etc.) still prevent the panel from hiding when REAPER isn't fullscreen. If any of those windows are left open/floating (not docked) when REAPER is closed, the next time REAPER is launched, the panel won't hide until those windows are closed. (Re-opening them afterwards though doesn't prevent the panel from hiding, until REAPER is closed and restarted again.)

Manjaro 21.1.6
KDE Plasma version 5.22.5
KDE frameworks version 5.87.0
Nvidia driver version 470.63.01
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Old 10-21-2021, 09:23 AM   #6
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We will be bringing this functionality back, but more incrementally. It was too much to put out there all at once, it wasn't useful for either us or users to have so many things to react to. But thank you to everyone who spent time with the previous build.
Makes sense. I gave it a quick go last night and was getting such weird behavior I didn't even know where to begin in terms of reporting it (wasn't sure what I could've done to trigger the odd behavior, if it was intended, etc.). I think a slower, more incremental roll-out, makes sense.

Hopefully you were able to parse yesterday's thread for some useful feedback. I think the majority of us appreciate the direction things are heading in around improving comping.
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Old 10-21-2021, 09:37 AM   #7
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Rock on gents !! Thanks for everything !
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:24 AM   #8
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+ Automation: fix editing automation items for FX parameters with inverted range [p=2489968]

Thanks devs!

As for the take stuff. It might be worth doing some image mockups with a description and work it out that way first if that saves time on the code. It's what we do in the game world and allows for iteration before the code even starts.
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Old 10-21-2021, 11:38 AM   #9
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Not sure if this is a bug or request but Multichannel outputs for surround, I know you added metadata for this to Bwavs but could this be added for video somehow to make it use the right channels?

Surround formats like 5.1 work great in Bwav output mode but if I render a video in 5.1 then channels 3 (center) and 4 (LFE) are in the wrong places and get rendered to the rear surround channels of 5 and 6.
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Old 10-21-2021, 01:05 PM   #10
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Default Lanes and comping

I like markers idea in view it can show among takes which part is used. But maybe these markers just will be have only this function? It's like mirror looking on source using.

Here is my vision about minimum things should be done for track based comping. And they are not technically complicated I hope.
It's not so boring as it look maybe, but it's natural continuation of Media lanes and RE feature.

1. Allow razor edit on lanes, not on whole tracks.

2. To make cursor paste positon sensitive to lanes.

3. To make an actions for toggle solo and hide lanes. (As example click on lane number to hide others, and click with modifier to solo lane. Also it could be done faster via actions in action list looking on mouse position.)

4. To add an action for copying current razor area content to the first line.

5. To make an action for copying current razor area to a new lane or on a first possible line if there is a space. (Auto switch on fixed lanes mode if not yet.)

6. Add track grouping parameter: razor edit.

7. Allow lanes reordering (respect grouping and without)


And to save all takes on their relative place while rearranging, the option to move content of all hidden lanes by RE can be added. Also ripple edit can have affect on all lanes or just on edited.
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Old 10-21-2021, 02:13 PM   #11
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Currently I'm wondering what solo markers are actually trying to solve/improve.
(May sound gnarly but isn't meant that way.)
I mean from the underlying workflow it doesn't seem that different to me to 'slice and dice' comping, other than where previously you'd have sliced/clicked (to make active) to make a part of a take play now you'd add a solo marker instead.

Ok, it avoids the splitting which many people don't seem to like, but apart from that? Or is this the main point?

Personally (as I'm mostly fine with slice and dice) I'd be interested mostly in how it could help for comping freetime music (as opposed to beat/click based music) where each take isn't necessarily the same length.
Do/will help solo markers there? Currently I can't see it tbh, for the similarities to slice and dice (which imo totally falls short for this use case), mentioned above, but I might be missing something.
(And to make a suggestion about how this could possibly approached I think would be some kind of native 4 point editing, but that's of course a quite different kind of beast).
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Old 10-21-2021, 02:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Currently I'm wondering what solo markers are actually trying to solve/improve.
(May sound gnarly but isn't meant that way.)
I mean from the underlying workflow it doesn't seem that different to me to 'slice and dice' comping, other than where previously you'd have sliced/clicked (to make active) to make a part of a take play now you'd add a solo marker instead.

Ok, it avoids the splitting which many people don't seem to like, but apart from that? Or is this the main point?

Personally (as I'm mostly fine with slice and dice) I'd be interested mostly in how it could help for comping freetime music (as opposed to beat/click based music) where each take isn't necessarily the same length.
Do/will help solo markers there? Currently I can't see it tbh, for the similarities to slice and dice (which imo totally falls short for this use case), mentioned above, but I might be missing something.
(And to make a suggestion about how this could possibly approached I think would be some kind of native 4 point editing, but that's of course a quite different kind of beast).
If solo markers can do what quick swiping does it will be a huge achievement for me
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Old 10-21-2021, 02:41 PM   #13
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  • # Media item solo markers: feature branch removed for now
.
There is an idea here for sure but it need indeed lots of discussion to bring ideas which would make a new comp system really stand out

from take (which is good enough for me :P).
Maybe just adding new enhancements-action to take system ?
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Old 10-21-2021, 02:43 PM   #14
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If solo markers can do what quick swiping does it will be a huge achievement for me
Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's compare.

Swipe comping:


Slice and dice:


Where do you see the advantages in swipe?
Personally I'm not convinced it's even faster than slice and dice tbh.
But then again, I haven't used a DAW with swipe comping yet.
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Old 10-21-2021, 04:23 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's compare.

Swipe comping:


Slice and dice:


Where do you see the advantages in swipe?
Personally I'm not convinced it's even faster than slice and dice tbh.
But then again, I haven't used a DAW with swipe comping yet.
This isn't a realistic comp, which will normally include a trillion splits at every punch point, most of which aren't related to the source material in any useful way.
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Old 10-21-2021, 04:26 PM   #16
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This isn't a realistic comp, which will normally include a trillion splits at every punch point, most of which aren't related to the source material in any useful way.
Ok, granted, but so isn't the swipe comp example (not done by me) I'd say.
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Old 10-21-2021, 04:49 PM   #17
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When I hit F11 now, the main REAPER window disappears entirely. (The floating windows I mentioned before do remain onscreen though.) Hitting F11 again brings back the titlebar, then I can close REAPER and start it again to make REAPER's main window visible.

Also those floating windows I mentioned (mostly under the "view" menu, such as Performance Meter etc.) still prevent the panel from hiding when REAPER isn't fullscreen. If any of those windows are left open/floating (not docked) when REAPER is closed, the next time REAPER is launched, the panel won't hide until those windows are closed. (Re-opening them afterwards though doesn't prevent the panel from hiding, until REAPER is closed and restarted again.)

Manjaro 21.1.6
KDE Plasma version 5.22.5
KDE frameworks version 5.87.0
Nvidia driver version 470.63.01

F11 full screen on KDE works well for me in this release. Even faster better redraw. Not having any of the issues with full screen.

The windows wanting attention is fixed for me too except the case of restarting REAPER with some of these windows opened as you say. I didn't notice that before.

I'm running the same version numbers as you, but not using nvidia driver, but the open source drivers.
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Old 10-21-2021, 05:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Ok, for the sake of discussion, let's compare.

Swipe comping:


Slice and dice:


Where do you see the advantages in swipe?
Personally I'm not convinced it's even faster than slice and dice tbh.
But then again, I haven't used a DAW with swipe comping yet.

Whatever works the fastest and easiest and can be used in takes is fine with me. I like the second one better because I don't need to create a composite media item
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Old 10-21-2021, 06:40 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Currently I'm wondering what solo markers are actually trying to solve/improve.
(May sound gnarly but isn't meant that way.)
I mean from the underlying workflow it doesn't seem that different to me to 'slice and dice' comping, other than where previously you'd have sliced/clicked (to make active) to make a part of a take play now you'd add a solo marker instead.
.

I felt the same way.. I couldn't see that much functional benefit over the slice and dice method already available.. i don't use comping that much though so maybe I'm missing something ? any benefits seemed minor..
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Old 10-21-2021, 06:50 PM   #20
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I felt the same way.. I couldn't see that much functional benefit over the slice and dice method already available.. i don't use comping that much though so maybe I'm missing something ? any benefits seemed minor..
what slice and dice thing are you talking about?
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Old 10-21-2021, 06:58 PM   #21
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I felt the same way.. I couldn't see that much functional benefit over the slice and dice method already available.. i don't use comping that much though so maybe I'm missing something ? any benefits seemed minor..


Guys please tell me how to activate the Orange take in 5 clicks or less, vs a single swipe?
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Old 10-21-2021, 07:06 PM   #22
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F11 full screen on KDE works well for me in this release. Even faster better redraw. Not having any of the issues with full screen.

The windows wanting attention is fixed for me too except the case of restarting REAPER with some of these windows opened as you say. I didn't notice that before.

I'm running the same version numbers as you, but not using nvidia driver, but the open source drivers.
I just realized that my issue with REAPER's main window disappearing involves: engaging fullscreen from maximized view (when REAPER's main window is already taking up the entire screen, but with titlebar). If the REAPER main window isn't taking up the full screen (resized to anything less than maximized view) and I hit F11, it does go to fullscreen (minus titlebar) properly.

Are you testing with REAPER's main window properly maximized before going to fullscreen view? If your REAPER main window is resized to anything less, it won't show the behavior I'm talking about.

Also: this behavior only happens when the panel is set to auto hide. If the panel is set to be visible and not hide, fullscreen behavior works properly.
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Old 10-21-2021, 08:55 PM   #23
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what slice and dice thing are you talking about?
the existing comping system ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1BWAVGjDos&t=555s

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Guys please tell me how to activate the Orange take in 5 clicks or less, vs a single swipe?
my point is the functionality already exists.. it might take few more clicks but you aren't unable to make those edits and still fairly easy with the current system.. in order for new comping to be added it would come at the expense of something else which begs the question of cost/benefit versus other features which would be good to see added also..
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Old 10-21-2021, 09:05 PM   #24
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oh. ok never heard it called that but ok
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Old 10-21-2021, 11:21 PM   #25
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F11 full screen on KDE works well for me in this release. Even faster better redraw. Not having any of the issues with full screen.

The windows wanting attention is fixed for me too except the case of restarting REAPER with some of these windows opened as you say. I didn't notice that before.

I'm running the same version numbers as you, but not using nvidia driver, but the open source drivers.
Fullscreen with XFCE does not work. The XFCE panel is always visible. I know that the latest KWIN optimization can not fix because it's KDE specific. Maybe it is a more general 'problem'?
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Old 10-22-2021, 12:12 AM   #26
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the existing comping system ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1BWAVGjDos&t=555s



my point is the functionality already exists.. it might take few more clicks but you aren't unable to make those edits and still fairly easy with the current system.. in order for new comping to be added it would come at the expense of something else which begs the question of cost/benefit versus other features which would be good to see added also..
Trying to see the value in what you're saying, but dude it is not arguable that having to click 5 separate, chaotically placed, easily-fudgeable items just to activate a take that was previously whole, is any sort of way to work.

There's nothing but incredible value if this new idea is followed through properly.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:18 AM   #27
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Trying to see the value in what you're saying, but dude it is not arguable that having to click 5 separate, chaotically placed, easily-fudgeable items just to activate a take that was previously whole, is any sort of way to work.

There's nothing but incredible value if this new idea is followed through properly.
Agreed! There are lots of great ideas in these threads, but also a lot of expectation for an "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" to fix every multitrack problem in REAPER, present and future. Where maybe some evolutionary workflow improvements are both more realistic and of greater utility.

I am glad the devs are taking their time to get it right, whatever it develops into. Feature development by benevolent passionate user committee has been wisely nipped in the bud.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:23 AM   #28
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Guys please tell me how to activate the Orange take in 5 clicks or less, vs a single swipe?
Select items by right grag and press T two times for go to next take.
Of course, it's a bit slowly and for each situation there will be unique combination.

But really limitation of the takes system for me is an impossible to save original take as is (even with duplicating take) and unable to fast compare different takes with different lenght (I'm forced to manipulating item edges, plasement, fades... to listen and then to press ctrl+Z several times).
Most often this happens when recording a voice on one microphone and I use additional tracks, but nonetheless.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:31 AM   #29
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Trying to see the value in what you're saying, but dude it is not arguable that having to click 5 separate, chaotically placed, easily-fudgeable items just to activate a take that was previously whole, is any sort of way to work.

There's nothing but incredible value if this new idea is followed through properly.
I agree less clicks is good but i don't think it deserves priority because the current system is already pretty good and IMO there are other things which would be better to see added.. just my 0.02

having said that I expect it will be added as it already looked fairly advanced..
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:43 AM   #30
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Are you testing with REAPER's main window properly maximized before going to fullscreen view? If your REAPER main window is resized to anything less, it won't show the behavior I'm talking about.
for me it works, with panel set to auto-hide too and REAPER maximized. The only change on full screen is the titlebar of the window hiding. an option to hide the menu on full screen would be nice but it's ok.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:45 AM   #31
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Where do you see the advantages in swipe?
The GIFs show the stage where they are roughly equal, I would agree. But now start adding pitch and timing corrections to the comp. In the Pro Tools (swipe-ish) method you still have your original takes intact when you want to go back. In the other method, your original material just becomes a mess of splits and other things you have to undo. Comping should never have you changing the original takes.

Also something I love about the PT method: I can create crossfades manually and again nothing changes in the original takes. This drives me up the wall in Cubase where the lane comping becomes a total and utter mess when you introduce crossfades...

So just going to first principles: independence of the comp lane. That's where this all comes back to every time. When you get that, everything kind of just works out. How one gets there, it doesn't really even matter to me that much. It just needs to happen by preserving the takes in their unedited form without some nonsense like duplicating the tracks so you can use an implode function etc.

Last edited by paaltio; 10-22-2021 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 10-22-2021, 01:45 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by swindus View Post
Fullscreen with XFCE does not work. The XFCE panel is always visible. I know that the latest KWIN optimization can not fix because it's KDE specific. Maybe it is a more general 'problem'?
this is one of the problems in Linux. It can be customized so much that it may be difficult to make things compatible for every configuration. I hope devs can figure it out.
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Old 10-22-2021, 03:00 AM   #33
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the existing comping system ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1BWAVGjDos&t=555s



my point is the functionality already exists.. it might take few more clicks but you aren't unable to make those edits and still fairly easy with the current system.. in order for new comping to be added it would come at the expense of something else which begs the question of cost/benefit versus other features which would be good to see added also..
A quick swipe function would be way easier for me than the current system and would greatly improve my workflow
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Old 10-22-2021, 03:19 AM   #34
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A quick swipe function would be way easier for me than the current system and would greatly improve my workflow
Same here :-)
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Old 10-22-2021, 03:57 AM   #35
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This video shows everything I love about quick swiping. The collapsible takes, everything in one track and easy swipe to activate sections of a take. What could be simpler, more intuitive, or friendlier? I even like the composite take at the top that shows everything assembled. Just do it like that and life will be great

https://youtu.be/rkdAWcU57Sc
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Old 10-22-2021, 04:25 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
Select items by right grag and press T two times for go to next take.
Of course, it's a bit slowly and for each situation there will be unique combination.

But really limitation of the takes system for me is an impossible to save original take as is (even with duplicating take) and unable to fast compare different takes with different lenght (I'm forced to manipulating item edges, plasement, fades... to listen and then to press ctrl+Z several times).
Most often this happens when recording a voice on one microphone and I use additional tracks, but nonetheless.
For me. Along with solo markers for lanes and item takes that worked more like swipe comping..

If a collection of items (even across tracks) could be placed in a larger container (like grouping we have now but with macro editing of the whole group) than this container could easily have options for saving and loading comp versions, fast copying and editing of multitrack things like drums and if we get solo markers for both lanes and item takes then that would complete this for me.

It would be like protools playlists but attached to items rather than tracks (which makes re-arranging songs difficult).

Playlists could still happen but would much prefer a more flexible system like the above
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Old 10-22-2021, 04:28 AM   #37
timothys_monster
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I have a question regarding plugin focus on Linux:

Space bar works fine with the plugin UI focused after opening an FX.

But as soon as you manipulate any of the parameters by clicking in the plugin, you can't reproduce the project anymore until you re-focus the arrange view.

Has that always been the case on Linux or is it a regression in the last versions?
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Old 10-22-2021, 04:31 AM   #38
musicbynumbers
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Yeah.. We would need per item setting crossfades in item takes which does make item take swipe comping not as flexible as lane based. I still think we need both though

So solo markers set up to act like swipe comping for both item takes and lanes. Ideally somehow separate from the items on the lanes too. So kind of physicalised item like we have for automation items that is the solo item so it can be moved and copied etc. Hmm.. tricky maybe

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Originally Posted by paaltio View Post
The GIFs show the stage where they are roughly equal, I would agree. But now start adding pitch and timing corrections to the comp. In the Pro Tools (swipe-ish) method you still have your original takes intact when you want to go back. In the other method, your original material just becomes a mess of splits and other things you have to undo. Comping should never have you changing the original takes.

Also something I love about the PT method: I can create crossfades manually and again nothing changes in the original takes. This drives me up the wall in Cubase where the lane comping becomes a total and utter mess when you introduce crossfades...

So just going to first principles: independence of the comp lane. That's where this all comes back to every time. When you get that, everything kind of just works out. How one gets there, it doesn't really even matter to me that much. It just needs to happen by preserving the takes in their unedited form without some nonsense like duplicating the tracks so you can use an implode function etc.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:40 AM   #39
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For me. Along with solo markers for lanes and item takes that worked more like swipe comping..

If a collection of items (even across tracks) could be placed in a larger container <...>

It would be like protools playlists but attached to items rather than tracks (which makes re-arranging songs difficult).

Playlists could still happen but would much prefer a more flexible system like the above
Yes, I'm also with both hands for the meta-items!
But as I wrote above, we need a natural continuation of RE and Media lanes. Just next step right now.
And for re-arranging I suggested a couple options.
Meta-items could be exellent, but it's a much-much complicated.

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Originally Posted by AZpercussion View Post
<...>
And to save all takes on their relative place while rearranging, the option to move content of all hidden lanes by RE can be added. Also ripple edit can have affect on all lanes or just on edited.
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Old 10-22-2021, 07:54 AM   #40
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Really impressing !
I suppose the devs did check this out before deciding to invent media item lanes. The gifs in the prerelease thread seemed to look very similar.

OTOH, Maybe it could be possible to do this on top of the existing take system, as well, by allowing for a bunch of options that in on combination represents the current take system and the other being similar to Logic's way of comping.

Obvious one option would be "show comping result on top" or similar.

The video says that combining the pieces cant easily be undone and you need a copy of the comp. I am confident that in Reaper this would be just one of multiple display options:

- show just the takes (allowing to hide them individually)
- color the takes
- show unhidden takes plus comping result
- show just the comping result
- unhide / hide all takes that are (not) used in the comping result
- color / don't color comping results according to takes.
- ...

Of course other options would affect the splitting of the containing Item, when recording new takes that are not aligned with the start/end of the item.

-Michael
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