Old 05-28-2020, 11:34 AM   #1
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Let's leave the pre threads for its main purpose
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:38 AM   #2
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I am not really getting the discussion about time selection and it's relation with as. What kind of operation you do with time selection that you want to do with area selection?
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:52 AM   #3
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How do you create an Area Selection?
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Old 05-28-2020, 11:53 AM   #4
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I *think* the discussion was about consolidating tools/workflows into a single "marque+area select." Think of Cubase for example: click and drag with the object selection tool just selects things. Those things can be cut, copied, pasted, duplicated or otherwise manipulated various ways.

At least, that's my guess as to what folks are looking for. Unified experience, unified set of actions/behaviors. Maybe a smarter tool.

That said, I think best thing would be to keep to the existing behavior as-is, and build up area selection over time so it can eventually replace the current appraoch so as not to mess with existing workflows/preferences.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:02 PM   #5
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How do you create an Area Selection?
Alt + right-click drag for single area and alt + shift + right click drag to add another area to the selection - multiple.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:08 PM   #6
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I *think* the discussion was about consolidating tools/workflows into a single "marque+area select." Think of Cubase for example: click and drag with the object selection tool just selects things. Those things can be cut, copied, pasted, duplicated or otherwise manipulated various ways.

At least, that's my guess as to what folks are looking for. Unified experience, unified set of actions/behaviors. Maybe a smarter tool.

That said, I think best thing would be to keep to the existing behavior as-is, and build up area selection over time so it can eventually replace the current appraoch so as not to mess with existing workflows/preferences.
Maybe not so difficult to combine both in the future. Area selection takes care of Y and X, while time selection takes care of X. In a single AS (or multiple if considered the total length of the area) there is implicit time selection so Maybe at some point Devs might consider it.

Loop locators (time selection looped) will always have to exist. The non looped time selection I don't know. Personally it's always a struggle looking in the render dialog time selection not referring the the loop version.

Anyway the non looped time selection maybe is quite doable to unify with area selection as I described (it's my feeling .. maybe I am wrong)
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:21 PM   #7
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Maybe not so difficult to combine both in the future. Area selection takes care of Y and X, while time selection takes care of X. In a single AS (or multiple if considered the total length of the area) there is implicit time selection so Maybe at some point Devs might consider it.
More than likely, YOU may get to a point where YOU can use AS to do everything you need and YOU can stop using TS. But it will most likely always be there.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:30 PM   #8
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You can make the area selection for CC automation in the midi editor. For example, so that you can adjust the tilt for automation. In any case, tilt and compression/expansion is really necessary for automation, and I would like to implement it in any way (without scripts, because it is slower or with API bugs/disadvantages). This applies to both the main window and the midi editor. You can make it in the form of a widget, like the action "Apply LFO to last touched CC lane..." However, in the form of area selection this gives more options (or this gives less restrictions). But even the simplest and easiest widget in some cases would be just a salvation

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Old 05-28-2020, 12:38 PM   #9
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While Area Selection should do every Time Selection does (and obviously expands on it) there's a few things Time Selection is better suited and should therefore stay separate for.

example: Render To File with Time Selection Bounds. It doesn't quite make sense to select Areas when telling Reaper the time bounds to render, unless getting into some far-down-the-line features like "Render Area Of Items". Not that crazy actually...Cakewalk SONAR could do this! But not really expecting this to be part of the conversation for a while in Reaper...

Loop bounds, etc.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:42 PM   #10
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While Area Selection should do every Time Selection does (and obviously expands on it) there's a few things Time Selection is better suited and should therefore stay separate for.

example: Render To File with Time Selection Bounds. It doesn't quite make sense to select Areas when telling Reaper the time bounds to render, unless getting into some far-down-the-line features like "Render Area Of Items". Not that crazy actually...Cakewalk SONAR could do this! But not really expecting this to be part of the conversation for a while in Reaper...
The render could consider the loop locators (loop time selection) instead of the non loop time selection as I referred previously. Any other example?
And API time selection functitons could inherit the implicit time selection in an area selection, and so backward compatible. Anyway!
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:46 PM   #11
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The render could consider the loop locators (loop time selection) instead of the non loop time selection as I referred previously. Any other example?
Probably not too many deeb! Enough for them to want to keep them separate though I'm afraid, especially considering people's custom actions etc.

Trust me I want Time Selection completely replaced by Area Selection!

Right now it's a glorified Delete/Duplicate tool, and it's tremendous don't get me wrong! But yeah this should move in the direction of matching Every Time Selection action/process that exists.

Plus, the possibilities are endless. Select an area, and "Solo" the area, or Loop it, or (very exciting for sound designers...) RENDER it like SONAR.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:48 PM   #12
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In the meantime it lacks all the powerful stuff Time Selection gives us.

1. Trim time selection in envelopes with 4 points (Ctrl-Shift-Drag on envelope)
2. Render Time Selection To New Track (and all the stuff that comes with that)
etc...

I suspect we'll get it all eventually! If not, yeah we have to keep Time Selection around.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:48 PM   #13
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You can make the area selection for CC automation in the midi editor. For example, so that you can adjust the tilt for automation. In any case, tilt and compression/expansion is really necessary for automation, and I would like to implement it in any way (without scripts, because it is slower or with API bugs/disadvantages). This applies to both the main window and the midi editor. You can make it in the form of a widget, like the action "Apply LFO to last touched CC lane..." However, in the form of area selection this gives more options (or this gives less restrictions)
Well yeah it's a new beast! May e after this one is well crafted they are motivated to go in that direction.. I think Manny people would like it, including me.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:49 PM   #14
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I've been thinking, what purpose does Time Selection serve now that we have Area Selection? I feel like there could easily be a mouse modifier that creates an area selection from top to bottom, basically mimicking a time selection. Or that's probably not even needed since time selection is just left/right boundaries and area selection can do the same (but also with top/bottom boundaries).

Am I missing something? Mind you this is coming from an ignorant non-programmer.

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You can make the area selection for CC automation in the midi editor. For example, so that you can adjust the tilt for automation. In any case, tilt and compression/expansion is really necessary for automation, and I would like to implement it in any way (without scripts, because it is slower or with API bugs). This applies to both the main window and the midi editor. You can make it in the form of a widget, like the action "Apply LFO to last touched CC lane..."
Area selection in the CC lane is something I would really love to see. It would make general editing (especially copying) of CC envelopes so much easier.
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:51 PM   #15
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I've been thinking, what purpose does Time Selection serve now that we have Area Selection? I feel like there could easily be a mouse modifier that creates an area selection from top to bottom, basically mimicking a time selection. Or that's probably not even needed since time selection is just left/right boundaries and area selection can do the same (but also with top/bottom boundaries).

Am I missing something? Mind you this is coming from an ignorant non-programmer.



Area selection in the CC lane is something I would really love to see. It would make general editing (especially copying) of CC envelopes so much easier.
Yes yes yes, everything in the MIDI editor, especially CC, would benefit from this.

Now that we do have Area Selection I'll be doing all my CC editing in ReaControlMIDI, until they add it to the MIDI editor of course
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:52 PM   #16
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In the meantime it lacks all the powerful stuff Time Selection gives us.

1. Trim time selection in envelopes with 4 points (Ctrl-Shift-Drag on envelope)
2. Render Time Selection To New Track (and all the stuff that comes with that)
etc...

I suspect we'll get it all eventually! If not, yeah we have to keep Time Selection around.
Simplification with same benefit sounds always good to me I am sure they know it. Good night
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Old 05-28-2020, 12:59 PM   #17
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Yes yes yes, everything in the MIDI editor, especially CC, would benefit from this.

Now that we do have Area Selection I'll be doing all my CC editing in ReaControlMIDI, until they add it to the MIDI editor of course
Yeah, I've always done my CC stuff with ReaControlMIDI and Automation Items since it's so much easier to work with. Now with Area Selection it's even faster.
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Old 05-28-2020, 01:02 PM   #18
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I have not yet been able to dive deep into the pre-release build yet, but I've been pretty eagerly anticipating area selection. In the past, I had a sort of psuedo-area-selection-workflow set up using time selections, but this new area selection implementation will be a lot better. I have used area selection pretty extensively in other DAWs, and there's a few crucial workflow additions that are usually considered with an area selection feature.

I have three questions/thoughts so far:

1. Area selection context-aware actions: One really important addition to area selection, from my experience with it in other DAWs, is an area-selection-aware set of tools. In other words, "Split selected items at edit cursor, or split items at area selection (if area selection present)" or "Delete selected items, or delete selected area of items (if area selection is present)", or even a big comprehensive split action that could be something like "Split selected items at edit cursor or area selection / Add automation point at edit cursor or 4 automation points at area selection (depending on selection)", or, well you get the picture- Context aware actions that take into account whether an area selection is or isn't present. That way, we can keep the same keybind for split, delete, cut, copy, etc, and have it all behave in an intuitive manner to whether an area selection is or is not present. A split splits selected items if there's no area selection, splits at the edges of the area selection if one is present, 'splits' (creates 4 automation points) in an automation lane if an area of an automation lane is selected, splits MIDI notes at edit cursor, etc etc. That way, there's not 4 different keybinds for what should be one context-aware action.
At the moment, I had to create my own "smart split" script to accomplish this with time selections, so it'd be certainly nice if it was natively available.

Are these sorts of context-aware actions planned in addition to the area selection mouse tools?

2. Accidental drawing of tiny area selections with snap off: This one's caused me fairly frequent frustration with drawing time selections with snap off. Let's say you have "Media item top half Left Click" set to "Move edit cursor to mouse cursor" and "Media item top half Left Drag" set to "Draw area selection". With snap turned off, one might try to click but accidentally drag a tiny distance, creating a very small area selection rather than simply moving the edit cursor to the intended location. I've run into this issue many times, since that is currently how I have my Reaper config set, except with time selections rather than area selections. If I leave looping on, I sometimes get blasted with an infernal buzzing noise, or accidentally split a tiny time selection rather than a single point since I can't tell when zoomed out!
Samplitude remedies this by having a "Minimum area selection size" to prevent accidental tiny area selections while clicking. I believe it is set as a certain number of pixels. Having it set to MS is non-ideal since, when zoomed out, it becomes easier to accidentally do. Is such a feature planned, to prevent accidentally creating tiny area selections when clicking around? It's quite a convenient addition.

3. Mouse modifiers for the new area selection feature: Will there be 'move selected item' mouse modifiers that ignore area selection, as there currently is for ignoring time selection?

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Old 05-28-2020, 02:20 PM   #19
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for me TS is specifically that, time-selection tool. I want to put/remove/edit/record between this and this TIME... I select that with TS...

Area selection? I need to take this AREA that contains these items/parts of these specific items and do something with just them -> AS...

They're different tools for different things.

AS is more about general editing with a surgical knife and TS is more about the overall time structure of a song or take etc...
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:36 PM   #20
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Time Selection in REAPER is like Region selection without making any Region Marker.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:39 PM   #21
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More than likely, YOU may get to a point where YOU can use AS to do everything you need and YOU can stop using TS. But it will most likely always be there.
Agreed.

Time selection is so integrated into the API and tons of scripts. There is no way it's going anywhere... nor should it!!

Replacing Time Selection with Area Section is a non-starter.
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:52 AM   #22
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Agreed.

Time selection is so integrated into the API and tons of scripts. There is no way it's going anywhere... nor should it!!

Replacing Time Selection with Area Section is a non-starter.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that they remove Time Selection completely and just leave a bunch of scripts unusable.

To me there's a lot of potential overlap so I was theorizing if they somehow could be merged in to one behind the scenes to allow all the time selection based scripts to also understand area selections without any further modification.

Because isn't Time Selection basically just an Area Selection but only on the x-axis?
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:04 AM   #23
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Because isn't Time Selection basically just an Area Selection but only on the x-axis?
No. AS could select multiple lanes with different start and end point, which obviously something that TS can’t.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:28 AM   #24
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No. AS could select multiple lanes with different start and end point, which obviously something that TS can’t.
Oh, right. I forgot Reaper had multi-AS. Well then.
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:27 AM   #25
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I sorta stopped checking this part of the forum out a few years ago. I used to be hardcore always running the latest dev build, but at a certain point everything got added that I wanted.

Except area selection.

The first thing I thought when I saw area selection was swipe comping. I love swipe comping. The take system in Reaper is pretty much the only beef I have with it really. I find it unwieldy and complicated to work with, but I've just learnt to crack on with it.

Being able to record 10 takes of drums and then swipe across one item in the group to switch the take to another, and have all the items in the group follow, would just be superb for drum editing workflow. Any editing where you use multiple mics really.
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Old 05-29-2020, 03:40 PM   #26
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I sorta stopped checking this part of the forum out a few years ago. I used to be hardcore always running the latest dev build, but at a certain point everything got added that I wanted.

Except area selection.

The first thing I thought when I saw area selection was swipe comping. I love swipe comping. The take system in Reaper is pretty much the only beef I have with it really. I find it unwieldy and complicated to work with, but I've just learnt to crack on with it.

Being able to record 10 takes of drums and then swipe across one item in the group to switch the take to another, and have all the items in the group follow, would just be superb for drum editing workflow. Any editing where you use multiple mics really.

Hey Amberience,

I came from Nuendo and do a lot of multi-mic recording and was looking for a good comping solution as well. I think I came up with one. Insofar as choosing different takes in sync across multiple mics... I also came up with a solution.

This video was done a long time ago to share with a buddy of mine who was also looking into comping across multiple tracks in Sync. Maybe this will help... 3:15 and on may be what you find of interest.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiix8jsbzx...-fade.mp4?dl=0

P.S. This was way before V6... so apologies for the retro skin

Cheers,

Andrew K
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:17 PM   #27
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Hey Amberience,

I came from Nuendo and do a lot of multi-mic recording and was looking for a good comping solution as well. I think I came up with one. Insofar as choosing different takes in sync across multiple mics... I also came up with a solution.

This video was done a long time ago to share with a buddy of mine who was also looking into comping across multiple tracks in Sync. Maybe this will help... 3:15 and on may be what you find of interest.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fiix8jsbzx...-fade.mp4?dl=0

P.S. This was way before V6... so apologies for the retro skin

Cheers,

Andrew K
Cool Andrew, are you aware of Jonathan Cohler's "Source-Destination 4-Point Editing"? For what you do it might be something of interest.

https://cohlerclassical.com/

Here's a post Jonathan made regarding it.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=235140

Incidentally, I vaguely remember you had a script for comparing tracks by using their mutes without having to mute the Master. Do you by chance still have that script?
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Old 05-29-2020, 07:57 PM   #28
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Cool Andrew, are you aware of Jonathan Cohler's "Source-Destination 4-Point Editing"? For what you do it might be something of interest.

https://cohlerclassical.com/

Here's a post Jonathan made regarding it.

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=235140

Incidentally, I vaguely remember you had a script for comparing tracks by using their mutes without having to mute the Master. Do you by chance still have that script?
Hey Todd,

Hope you're doing well!

Yeah... I've seen that Cohler Classical 4 point editing video and found it very interesting. Not really what I need though... but very cool nonetheless.

Insofar as the script you mentioned... That doesn't ring a bell. I have done so many scripts I may just be forgetting. Maybe you can explain more?

Cheers,

Andrew K
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Old 05-29-2020, 09:40 PM   #29
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I wish it get some feature to transform envelopes (like area 51 from sexan)and be able to copy multi of them.

( also is my bday so my wishes recives +25 luck points automatically )
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Old 05-29-2020, 11:57 PM   #30
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Agreed.

Time selection is so integrated into the API and tons of scripts. There is no way it's going anywhere... nor should it!!

Replacing Time Selection with Area Section is a non-starter.
In my opinion, TS should just be upgrade, letting user to draw more than one and work with blocks so all the script, api and action using time selection will be still working. And basically, it allow to get the exact same concept as area selection.

Try this : go in mouse modifiers, in context: item left drag, set any modifiers to move item (just move and also move time selection)

You get the basics of area selection

Allow user to draw more than one and consider vertical and you get a full area selection feature without adding a new editing object

Don't need another object just for area selection (we already have a lot of different object to deal with in reaper : item, AI, stretch markers, transient guides, time selection, loop, zdit cursor, mouse cursor,...)

Also, consistency is important. As an example, the area selection, at the moment, trim item behind even if the options : trim content behind item is disable. It make no sense.
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:18 AM   #31
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I dont agree with your opinion. It's like you are comparing patatoes with bananas. If you don't know the flavour of patatoes you still think it tastes like bananas, just because it's a vegetable
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Old 05-30-2020, 03:28 AM   #32
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...

2. Accidental drawing of tiny area selections with snap off: This one's caused me fairly frequent frustration with drawing time selections with snap off. Let's say you have "Media item top half Left Click" set to "Move edit cursor to mouse cursor" and "Media item top half Left Drag" set to "Draw area selection". With snap turned off, one might try to click but accidentally drag a tiny distance, creating a very small area selection rather than simply moving the edit cursor to the intended location. I've run into this issue many times, since that is currently how I have my Reaper config set, except with time selections rather than area selections. If I leave looping on, I sometimes get blasted with an infernal buzzing noise, or accidentally split a tiny time selection rather than a single point since I can't tell when zoomed out!
Samplitude remedies this by having a "Minimum area selection size" to prevent accidental tiny area selections while clicking. I believe it is set as a certain number of pixels. Is such a feature planned, to prevent accidentally creating tiny area selections when clicking around? It's quite a convenient addition.
I have same problem. It happens a number of times every day. A minimum selection size in milliseconds would help me a LOT as well. I wonder whether this can damage my speakers significantly enough.
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Old 05-30-2020, 09:47 AM   #33
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Alt + right-click drag for single area and alt + shift + right click drag to add another area to the selection - multiple.
Why is it different from every other selection in Reaper and everywhere else in the world? If I’m trying to select multiple non-contiguous anything anywhere, I’m going to grab Ctrl, and if I grab Shift, I expect is going to select everything in between. Not sure how that last would play out in this context, but...

Edit - and that’s ignoring my longstanding complaint that right click is the wrong click for marquee selection. These are the things that annoy me. I don’t necessarily care what other DAWs do, but when basic functions are different from every piece of software I’ve used the last 30 years for no good reason at all, it freaks me out.

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 05-30-2020 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 05-30-2020, 10:38 AM   #34
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Why is it different from every other selection in Reaper and everywhere else in the world? If I’m trying to select multiple non-contiguous anything anywhere, I’m going to grab Ctrl,
^Sure for items and objects generally.

But there are many apps that use ALT+Drag for a non-contiguous "area" (Excel, Word, Notepad++, VS code and a good number of others) and CTRL+ALT+Drag for multiple non-contiguous areas.

I'm only mentioning because with AS, I would try CTRL+ALT+Drag by habit because it's exactly that in other apps where non-contiguous "areas" are the selection criteria not non-contiguous objects. I'm sure reaper won't follow the standard I'm used to but the OPs point does have some value.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:22 AM   #35
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Yeah sorry, I understand that it’s going to be Alt+ something. My objection was to using Shift where it should be Ctrl.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:52 AM   #36
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Yea, agree.
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Old 05-30-2020, 11:54 AM   #37
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By Default AS should be Left-Drag, no modifier except when it select multiple time and places.

I always thought AS is like text selection on word processor, hence the cursor (at least in a lot of popular DAW).
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Old 05-30-2020, 12:41 PM   #38
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To be clear, I'm perfectly confident and content with the item+time selection method we have now, and don't really need it to change for anything I ever do.

I do however agree that if area selection is going to be a thing, we should be able to do with it anything that we could do to within a time selection. Just cut and copy is nowhere near enough.
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Old 05-30-2020, 04:06 PM   #39
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Insofar as the script you mentioned... That doesn't ring a bell. I have done so many scripts I may just be forgetting. Maybe you can explain more?
It was a year to 2 years ago we were discussing that while switching grouped mutes, it helped to mute the Master in between. Later you mentioned you created a script that made it so that you didn't have to mute the master.

Don't worry about it Andrew, I've got it working well enough.
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Old 05-30-2020, 05:23 PM   #40
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Yeah... I've seen that Cohler Classical 4 point editing video and found it very interesting. Not really what I need though... but very cool nonetheless.
Agreed, its great to see some motion in this area, but we found it unsuitable as it takes over the entire workflow of Reaper, forcing operators to have to work in CC's way and not theirs.
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