Please help with my kontakt template

-R- · 06-28-2010, 03:13 PM

Ok, I'm gonna try to make it short.

I had my Kontakt template well set. However, as I want to use my Novation controller more efficiently, the number of tracks was annoying. I had one track for the midi data of each instruments, and tracks for the different outputs, in order to put different effets, etc.. for differents instruments.
Then I tried, for each Kontakt instrument, to have the midi data and the ouput on one single track. Here is what I came up with, hope you can find the mistake:

One main track on wich the Kontakt plugin sits. It has 20 track channels. The next track is routed as followed:
- Send to the main track. No audio. Midi: all to channel 1.
- Receive from main track. No midi. Audio: 1/2 to 1/2.

just to make it clear, the next track is routed as followed:
- Send to the main track. No audio. Midi: all to channel 2.
- Receive from main track. No midi. Audio: 3/4 to 1/2.

Only half of this works. It sends the midi correctly, but volume changes and fx on the other tracks has no effect on the instrument.

In Kontakt, I have many outputs. For convenience, I'd like to have one for each instrument. First output use kontakt's output 1 and 2, second output uses K.'s output 3/4 etc..
If I untick Master/parent send of the main track, no sound anymore. I have a routing problem but the way I set it up seems totally logical to me.

I attached the template in case you want to check it. Doooh! It's called KontaktPerfect...

Thanks

Tod · 06-28-2010, 03:52 PM

I don't have K4 so I of course can't see the VSTi. However the main K4 track looks good as far as the routing goes except on the Sends to the outputs, I would switch the Midi to "Midi: None".

The part that don't look right is the Routing for the outputs themselves. You've got the sends to send to the Midi tracks and from my litmited experiece with Reaper this send shouldn't be there. In other wards delete it. The receives are okay, don't delete them however you might want to change the "Midi: All => All" to "Midi: None".

Also I usually don't have the "Masert/Parent" checked on the main VSTi track but not sure if it makes a difference. I don't use the main VSTi tracks as a Parent but that's my way of doing things.

-R- · 06-28-2010, 04:44 PM

Thanks for the super fast reply.

Actually, what I want to do is to use the same track to send the midi to kontakt and to receive audio from it. That way I could, on a single track, Put my midi data ( with mouse, keyboard or whatever ) and set level and fx for the same instrument. That is why I have sends and receive.
The sends works ok. I put my midi data and it sends it only to the instrument it is supposed to. But apparently it doesn't get audio back from Kontakt. This is the weak thing here.

Thanks again

Tod · 06-28-2010, 05:09 PM

Okay -R-, I know there are a lot of Reaper users who do put their midi and audio tracks together and I've never done that. Actually I don't have a clue how that works or why you would want to do it that way but I know there must be a reason unbeknowist to me.

I don't have K4, but i do have K2 (K4 is on it's way) and I don't have any problems with that as far as sending and receiving. However my midi and audio tracks are separate.

Maybe try separateing them to see what happens. Or click off the "Master/Parent" on the main K4 track although I dobt that will help.

Good luck, I hope you get it figured out.

chrisharbin · 06-28-2010, 05:27 PM

R,

are you trying to simply eliminate the "midi" tracks and have midi/audio on one track? If so, I'm pretty sure you can't.

stratman · 06-28-2010, 10:52 PM

I don't have time to check your post at the moment, so I'll just quickly post a link below, which might help. In particular see post 10 at the link below. Hopefully I'm not missing the point.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...edback+kontakt

To combine midi and audio on the same track I've had to enable feedback routing (FBR). But I've since found out it's not a good idea to use FBR (as explained in post 10 in the link above) so now I always use separate tracks for the midi send and audio return.

Pete

EvilDragon · 06-29-2010, 02:36 AM

I think -R- wants one MIDI track for each instrument he has loaded in that Kontakt instance.

Well, in that case, you need to know that in plugin version you can use only 16 MIDI channels. Here's a template for you which is made like this:

- Folder track
- track with Kontakt 4 loaded
- 16 stereo output tracks (including auxes), each track has its own MIDI item, which sends all its 16 MIDI channels to ONE MIDI channel used in Kontakt. So, 1st stereo out sends over channel 1, 2nd stereo out sends over channel 2, etc.

Does this help?

Attachment 8359

-R- · 06-29-2010, 06:40 AM

stratman: What you did in your pdf is exactly what I was trying to do. What I was missing was "allow feedback routing". It's a pity that the manual doensn't say anything about it, apart from the fact that it can be dangerous. You're also right in that to avoid the noise it introduces you need a folder.

In short: Thanks a bucking lot!!

chrisarbin: Yes I can, I just did it! It's much better to have your midi data and the audio processing for its instrument on one track, especially when you have many!

evildragon: Always here to help. Your support is highly appreciated by many people here. For some reason,your template didn't do it for me. I haven't checked it for a long time, and it looks a lot like mine. Who knows?

Ok, seems like I can finally play some music. See ya gentlemen!

I have attached my perfect Kontakt template. If you want to check it, remember, as stratman said, you need "allow feedback routing" ticked. You also need to route the midi channel and audio output for each of your instruments in Kontakt. I hope I didn't left any mistake.

Great Forum here!

EvilDragon · 06-29-2010, 06:42 AM

My template works over here :/

-R- · 06-29-2010, 06:44 AM

Do you also need the "allow feedback routing" thing?

EvilDragon · 06-29-2010, 06:45 AM

Nope.

OH WAIT MY ERROR!

ACTIVATE Master parent send on the "Plugin" track!!! It works then, you can arm any of the "Out" tracks to play the respective MIDI channel from 1 to 16. No need for feedback routing!

EDIT: I'm completely wrong, sorry. Yes, my template works even without activating Master parent send on Plugin track, but needs Allow feedback routing to be activated. Sorry again.

-R- · 06-29-2010, 06:56 AM

Your template works for me if I tick "feedback routing". I must be missing something but 'm so fed up with it right now I don't want to check why. Will do.
Thanks again

chrisharbin · 06-29-2010, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -R-

chrisarbin: Yes I can, I just did it! It's much better to have your midi data and the audio processing for its instrument on one track, especially when you have many!

I'm stoked! Glad I'm wrong and look forward to trying this myself!!!!!!!!!!

stratman · 06-29-2010, 12:53 PM

Note that enabling feedback routing (FBR) will defeat Plugin Delay Compensation (PDC). See links below.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...edback+routing
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=50934

I don't use the technique of midi and audio on a single track anymore. I use separate midi and audio tracks, then hide the midi tracks if I want to make things look tidier.

Pete

EvilDragon · 06-29-2010, 12:59 PM

I hope that behavior gets changed, though.

Having audio sent to one track which receives MIDI from that send is not exactly a feedback loop, it's not the same data type.

chrisharbin · 06-29-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratman

Note that enabling feedback routing (FBR) will defeat Plugin Delay Compensation (PDC). See links below.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...edback+routing
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=50934

I don't use the technique of midi and audio on a single track anymore. I use separate midi and audio tracks, then hide the midi tracks if I want to make things look tidier.

Pete

Dangit! Now I'm bummed.....

-R- · 06-29-2010, 04:00 PM

So am I... I tought i had it all figured out. As Evildragon said, this routing is not a feedback loop, since it's 2 different data. Or, it should work without FDR ticked.

Tod · 06-29-2010, 04:21 PM

Hi -R-, is this just to save realestate? Useing the Track List I don't have any problems with this. Also I don't think there's much if any difference in CPU usage either way, although I could be wrong.

I like everything separate but then I'm an old fart and not up to date with what some of you youngins are doing. Is there a real advantage to haveing them on the same track other then realestate?

Just wondering.

EvilDragon · 06-29-2010, 04:22 PM

Pretty much just real estate and less visual clutter. It's all in one.

Tod · 06-29-2010, 04:56 PM

Humm OK, but then you have to basically have them both in the TCP and the MPC right? That is if you want to access the midi and the Audio tracks at the same time. I guess you could eliminate the MPC alltogether?

Basically I have my Midi tracks in the TCP only and Audio tracks in the MPC. That way my Midi tracks are lined up with the time line, easily accessable for the Midi Editor and my Audio tracks are in the Mixer. No need for the Audio track to be in the TCP because they only need routing and FX to be applied. On those rare occasions that I need volume, pan, etc envelopes on the outputs then I can put them in the TCP.

Oh well, I know you guys are way ahead of me on this so I digress.

EvilDragon · 06-29-2010, 05:00 PM

No, your way of doing it also makes sense.

stratman · 06-30-2010, 12:02 PM

If it's mainly about real estate why not just hide the tracks you don't want to see at any given time.

Very basic example below:-

Download and install the SWS extension from the link below.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=29640

Load up the Kontakt VSTi on a track.

In the track Fx window click on Options
Select "Build multichannel routing..." and answer Yes
Then "Build 16 channels of midi routing..." and answer Yes

Click on View from the Reaper menu and select "SWS Tracklist"
In the SWS Tracklist window, put ticks in the boxes at the bottom left labelled "Hide Filtered Tracks" and "Link TCP and MCP vis"

Type M in the filter box to see the Midi tracks. Because they will begin with an M for Kontakt
Type k in the filter box to see the audio tracks. Because they begin with a k for Kontakt.
Remove the letters if you want to see all the tracks.

Obviously that's a very simple example and you can do much cleverer things if you read the SWS Extensions manual.

Pete

-R- · 06-30-2010, 02:02 PM

Thanks for he tip Stratman, I bookmark this page and will try it tomorow. It's really time for me to go the sws route anyway.
The advantage of my template, if FDR was not needed, is of course to save space, which is important, because if you have to scroll the screen to find back the audio of the instrument every time, you loose a lot of focus.

And:

To save time as well. You load your template, and nothing else is needed. I'm tryin' to have that convenience for all my stuff.

Other advantage would be to use my novation controller more easily. It actually doesn't care if two tracks refer to the same instrument ( stupid controller! ) so 2 of its knobs are used. I know I can find a workaround with Padre's csurf, but haven't read the manual yet. Anyway, if I do, i will still need a little more time and concentration to have it set than If I just had to load a template.

So I'll have a workaround for this, but having been so close to the goal, I still wish FDR was not needed to get it. It's not impossible that I start a feature request withn some days.

Anyway, thanks for having been so responsive, as always!

R