Old 11-14-2010, 07:13 PM   #1
coucou
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Default Kind of Midi Apple Loops in Reaper

Hi all,


I wonder whether there is in Reaper something similar to Midi Apple loops?.

A file that consists of a midi file + virtual instrument + fx plugins, with autoplay preview from the media explorer, and confronts to tempo.

In Reaper, the tracktemplates do it all except the autoplay preview prior importing, which is crucial in the process IMO.


Anyone has a workaround to create this kind of loops in Reaper?

Last edited by coucou; 11-14-2010 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:04 AM   #2
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Nope. The only ways to save MIDI data together with the instrument playing it are a track template (as coucou said) or a Reaper project file. But Reaper's media explorer can't preview any of both, so this method is not serving the purpose coucou is after.

I'm afraid there is currently no way to do what he is after in Reaper - apart from a more experimental method which involves enabling an incomplete Reaper feature called PIP (project in project). This can be done by adding a line to reaper.ini, but is not recommended, as the feature is not really ready for prime time.
Basically you would save the single track as a Reaper project. The PIP feature (among other uses) allows to preview Reaper project files (*.rpp) from the media explorer.

Hopefully this will change in the future.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:42 AM   #3
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Thanks for your replies. Yep it would be great to see this feauture implemented in the near future in Reaper. It is actually the only thing that keeps me on using both Logic and Reaper, otherwise I would only use Reaper probably. it is fundamental for my workflow to have inmediate access to the preview of my processed midi files, samples and loops.
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Old 11-16-2010, 09:35 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coucou View Post
Thanks for your replies. Yep it would be great to see this feauture implemented in the near future in Reaper. It is actually the only thing that keeps me on using both Logic and Reaper, otherwise I would only use Reaper probably. it is fundamental for my workflow to have inmediate access to the preview of my processed midi files, samples and loops.
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This is unique to Logic / Garage Band. While it doesn't provide for linkage with a given instrument as delivered, but for the love of Mike, I can't understand why Twiddly Bits seems to be the only independent vendor of instrument specific MIDI performances (and they have a limited amount of data). I guess Band In A Box would be another way to generate this type of MIDI performance data - which is actually more flexible. (note to self...)

As a guitarist, when starting out composing a tune, it would be nice to have a genre specific B3, Rhodes, or Clav bed to help flesh out a tune. For me, I wouldn't have any problem assigning my own instrument to the MIDI performance. And then because it's MIDI, you could tweak notes, etc.

And as your tune progresses, you could replace the music beds with actual human performances.
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:02 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by pbognar View Post

And as your tune progresses, you could replace the music beds with actual human performances.
I think this is one of the beauties of "midi apple loops" the other would be that you can create your own midi processed loops and use them in different projects so you can have access to your custom made drums, pianos, strings etc and since it is midi you can confront to tempo and change it to the feeling of the project. It is ideal to make remixes as well.

Not being an IT guy, I don't think it should be difficult for Justin to implement a realtime audio preview of the "track templates". I will send a note to the "feature request" forum.
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Old 11-17-2010, 07:30 AM   #6
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Well I tried to explain it as best as I could and left the request here:

http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=3078

Hope we can see this in the future!
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:10 AM   #7
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This is unique to Logic / Garage Band.
Not really. Just for clarity / methodology / usability of the request... not that I need it in Reaper, I don't.

Cubase / Sequel have midi loops which are previewed with their instrument and audio insert FX on them. You can also save any midi range as a new loop with those things attached. But when you preview a loop you hear it just like it would sound in arrange, with the correct instrument and FX.

Obviously, they do take a little longer to load (the previews) than audio loops because the plugs have to load.
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Old 11-17-2010, 09:55 AM   #8
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MIDI loops can also be previewed in Studio One when you have a VI-enabled track selected. (It previews both Type 0 and Type 1 MIDI which flexibility you need when working with Twiddly Bits). This works very well for every usage I would need.

As mentioned, difference in Logic is that these instruments are already set up with the VI and FX, e.g. Sax. But with Studio One, you can just use an instrument that you want to use with the MIDI loop and preview it.
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:15 AM   #9
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I am curious, can you have multiple tracks in a Logic apple loop?
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Old 11-17-2010, 11:56 AM   #10
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I think Live does it as well.

We had a discussion (when it came to PIP and project preview) that it would perhaps be cool to save a render, so plugins wouldn't need to be loaded and preview could be instant. Maybe this could be a way to go? I'd think waiting for a plug and maybe samples to be loaded can turn out to be more annoying than useful.

@ bitrate:
Reaper does it the same way. MIDI file preview in the media explorer is routed through the instrument on the selected track.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:06 PM   #11
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We had a discussion (when it came to PIP and project preview) that it would perhaps be cool to save a render, so plugins wouldn't need to be loaded and preview could be instant. Maybe this could be a way to go? I'd think waiting for a plug and maybe samples to be loaded can turn out to be more annoying than useful.
Yeah, it's a bit slower than previewing audio loops but really no slower than loading track presets in arrange to do the same thing once you drop a midi loop into arrange and start looking for sounds to use for any midi part.

In reality it's just a track preset (fx, instrument, settings) with midi data (the midi loop) so if the track settings are null, no FX or instruments loaded when you save it, the loop preset will be null with just the midi loop data and will play faster. So if the delay is annoying, just don't save any loops (in that case) with instruments or FX on the track.

But, in Cubase at least, it's just an instrument track preset with a midi clip.
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Old 11-17-2010, 04:32 PM   #12
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Reaper does it the same way. MIDI file preview in the media explorer is routed through the instrument on the selected track.
Yes, for the Type 0; I didn't think REAPER can preview Type 1 MIDI files? That would be nice; since Twiddly Bits was mentioned, they are most all Type 1 which have to be previewed individually. Studio One has a little drop down arrow on the MIDI file to reveal the nested files within it for previewing.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:08 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Not really. Just for clarity / methodology / usability of the request... not that I need it in Reaper, I don't.

Cubase / Sequel have midi loops which are previewed with their instrument and audio insert FX on them. You can also save any midi range as a new loop with those things attached. But when you preview a loop you hear it just like it would sound in arrange, with the correct instrument and FX.

Obviously, they do take a little longer to load (the previews) than audio loops because the plugs have to load.
Just my own clarification: Is it Sequel MIDI loops you are referring to and Cubase's ability to handle them, or does the "MIDI loop with instrument and FX" concept exist natively in Cubase?
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:29 PM   #14
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Just my own clarification: Is it Sequel MIDI loops you are referring to and Cubase's ability to handle them, or does the "MIDI loop with instrument and FX" concept exist natively in Cubase?
Those are Steinberg midi loops. The same kind that come with Sequel, you can also create them from any midi data on the timeline.

A midi loop is a midi loop. You can create a midi loop with any sequencer by exporting 8 bars of a midi track or whatever. In Cubendo they're also tied to track templates so you can attach VI's and FX to specific loops. You can see below when you drag in a midi loop it comes with the instrument and any FX that was inserted.

The one selected has a comp and some EQ engaged. You'd hear it that way in preview.



So if you made changes to the instrument or FX you select the clip and save a new midi loop... if you want to keep it for later...



The graphics are for clarity re: your questions, not that I personally need that in Reaper. The "midi loop" container format is just a template with a midi clip and all the FX and instrument data. Sequel comes with a large collection of midi loops. I use them in Cubase, never really launching Sequel.

I use them more for auditioning sounds as relates to particular styles than the actual loop data.

Last edited by Lawrence; 11-18-2010 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:48 PM   #15
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Just to be clear, you can do this now in Reaper, save a track template with the items and instrument and FX on the track. The only differences are...

1. It takes all of the track data so if you only want one clip, no way to just take the one clip.

2. You can't preview data from track templates in Reaper yet, afaik. You have to import to hear it with the FX or have a track on the timeline with the instrument to hear it with the instrument.

3. Obviously, except for drums, previewing midi loops isn't that useful if they aren't transposed into the same musical key as the project so auditioning a bass loop in G won't tell you much if the project is in F, unless the preview player knows to transpose the preview of the midi data and how far.


Last edited by Lawrence; 11-18-2010 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:57 PM   #16
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Those are Steinberg midi loops. The same kind that come with Sequel, you can also create them from any midi data on the timeline.

A midi loop is a midi loop. You can create a midi loop with any sequencer by exporting 8 bars of a midi track or whatever. In Cubendo they're also tied to track templates so you can attack VI's and FX to specific loops. You can see below when you drag in a midi loop it comes with the instrument and any FX that was inserted.

The one selected has a comp and some EQ engaged. You'd hear it that way in preview.



So if you made changes to the instrument or FX you select the clip and save a new midi loop... if you want to keep it for later...



The graphics are for clarity re: your questions, not that I personally need that in Reaper. The "midi loop" container format is just a template with a midi clip and all the FX and instrument data. Sequel comes with a large collection of midi loops. I use them in Cubase, never really launching Sequel.

I use them more for auditioning sounds as relates to particular styles than the actual loop data.
(sorry - I see you posted more information as I was replying)

You don't have to defend your use of MIDI loops. ;-)

So if I'm understanding you correctly, in Logic, the Green Apple Loops are nothing more than a MIDI loop, with additional meta data designating which instrument and FX Logic should use to play the loop at the time it is dragged into the program? Makes sense.

So I suspect that as delivered, these Green Apple Loops are assigned to "lightweight" VI's which are always present (probably similar to GM) in Logic. Otherwise, there would be some delay, waiting for one of the larger VI's to instantiate before playback could begin?
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:03 PM   #17
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You don't have to defend your use of MIDI loops. ;-)
Yeah, not defending per se but that's what they're really useful for (musically besides drums). If you load certain loops in certain styles you think "yeah, that's a good patch (instrument sound + fx) for my song part..." and load the loop, delete the clip and just use the track.

So for auditioning sounds, midi loops are great. I mean, if you're looking for a good banjo patch you want the loops to play banjo sounds and banjo type notes, not jazz guitar sounds/notes so the loops are categorized by style and help you locate "patches" to use even if you don't use the actual loop data.

But again, if it's not conforming to the song pitch in preview it's pointless... for anything but drums.

Quote:
So if I'm understanding you correctly, in Logic, the Green Apple Loops are nothing more than a MIDI loop, with additional meta data designating which instrument and FX Logic should use to play the loop at the time it is dragged into the program? Makes sense.

So I suspect that as delivered, these Green Apple Loops are assigned to "lightweight" VI's which are always present (probably similar to GM) in Logic. Otherwise, there would be some delay, waiting for one of the larger VI's to instantiate before playback could begin?
Seemed that way to me in Logic / Garagband. They really have no choice but to tie their factory loops to instruments that come with the application since they have no way to know what other instrument you may have.

But you can change that instrument if you want after the import of course.

Last edited by Lawrence; 11-18-2010 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:17 PM   #18
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Can Sequel content be used in hosts other than Cubase? Or is it a proprietary format? 5000 loops for $99 seems like a deal. Is there any decent jazz or fusion keyboard content?

It appears that Sequel comes with VI's as well as the MIDI loops themselves.

I suppose you could just fire up Sequel app and export generic MIDI files.
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:24 PM   #19
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Can Sequel content be used in hosts other than Cubase? Or is it a proprietary format?
They're packaged in a proprietary *.Soundframe format so (IIRC) you need Sequel or Cubendo to access them and I'm pretty sure Sequel doesn't export midi files.

Quote:
It appears that Sequel comes with VI's as well as the MIDI loops themselves.
I think it uses the Halion One synth for everything.
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:25 PM   #20
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Yes, for the Type 0; I didn't think REAPER can preview Type 1 MIDI files? That would be nice; since Twiddly Bits was mentioned, they are most all Type 1 which have to be previewed individually. Studio One has a little drop down arrow on the MIDI file to reveal the nested files within it for previewing.
Works here. You need a multitimbral instrument on the selected track and it will play a multitrack *.mid saved as MIDI Type 1 correctly as far as I tested (that's not very far, I admit . I am not so much into that stuff). Up to 16 channels, that is. I don't have Twiddly bits and don't really know what they are, but I think you should give it a try.

Could be that you mean something different there. But it will eg preview a GM MIDI Type 1 through a GM instrument as expected.

Last edited by gofer; 11-18-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:32 PM   #21
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Works here too in Reaper. ^^^
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:36 PM   #22
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They're packaged in a proprietary *.Soundframe format so (IIRC) you need Sequel or Cubendo to access them and I'm pretty sure Sequel doesn't export midi files.



I think it uses the Halion One synth for everything.
Hmmm... Figured there had to be a catch. It's a closed system, unless you bring it into Cubase and then export.

Did some checking - seems like Sequel 2 is also discontinued.
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Old 11-18-2010, 04:41 PM   #23
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Hmmm... Figured there had to be a catch. It's a closed system, unless you bring it into Cubase and then export.

Did some checking - seems like Sequel 2 is also discontinued.
Yeah, I think most daws that give you loops try to protect them in some fashion or people would be giving them away. Having said that, even though they're also packaged in a proprietary container, it's pretty easy to "convert" Studio One's audio loops.

You can convert Garageband Loops right in the Apple OS with Compressor, but you lose all of the helpful tags.
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