Old 05-06-2008, 12:42 PM   #1
mikebuzz2
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Default Will there EVER be an Automation upgrade ??

As it says

We have all kinds of bells and whistles but very little real automation ????

Later
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PS: I have been VERY patient !!sppelll chexhk
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Old 05-06-2008, 12:58 PM   #2
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Would be nice - we've been patient
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Old 05-06-2008, 01:43 PM   #3
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+1 I would find it lots more useable if when you go into write mode, the fader automation does not automatically write a point at -inf, but instead starts writing from wherever the channel fader is set when the project is stopped at its beginning. As it stands, I set up a mix, and as soon as I start automating, so that I can make changes as the project plays, the mix is messed up.

Or am I doing something wrong? Cheers
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Old 05-06-2008, 07:16 PM   #4
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The design Reaper has for Automation has a lot to be desired IMO it's not intuitive at all to me ??, and the help file really does not explaining the functions and how they work very well.

I don't think this has been thought out very well at all again IMO

Justin has done a great job with so many other parts of Reaper that it KILLS me to see the automation in the state it is.

Later
Buzz
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:04 PM   #5
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Rocket did an excellent job of explaining using automation in Reaper in a video, here's the link to the thread:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12274
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Old 05-06-2008, 08:10 PM   #6
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The Not So Good: It has some practical limitations that (imo) can't be overcome within that current design .. things that go beyond subjective opinion. The Vegas automation model it kinda emulates is really outdated compared to many other systems.

The Good: It's very usable and people that really love the daw, the company ethic and the Reaper community won't really care too much so it's all good... they'll automate what they need to automate and get on with their lives.

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Old 05-06-2008, 08:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebuzz2 View Post
Justin has done a great job with so many other parts of Reaper that it KILLS me to see the automation in the state it is.
I think Justin is Killing himself trying to bring that Mac build up to this state. I am sure that once that has been accomplished... and once the other things Cockos has on its plate have been accomplished... automation will get some love.

hooray! for in-line editing & amalgamation parts

.t
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Old 05-06-2008, 09:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
The Not So Good: It has some practical limitations that (imo) can't be overcome within that current design .. things that go beyond subjective opinion. The Vegas automation model it kinda emulates is really outdated compared to many other systems.
do you have another post on this somewhere?

what is not possible within the current design? I would like to hear more about this.
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Old 05-06-2008, 10:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Will there EVER be an Automation upgrade ??
The answer: yes.
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Old 05-07-2008, 01:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
The answer: yes.
That's about THE most to the point answer you can get
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Old 05-07-2008, 02:53 AM   #11
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And I'm glad to get a confirmation that it is important. That's all I needed to hear for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
do you have another post on this somewhere?

what is not possible within the current design? I would like to hear more about this.
I only need to draw comparisons. A simple one. Say I wish to use two reverbs(or EQs or Chorus FX etc.) on two different tracks to alternatly have different settings on sixteen bars each(or one scene for a film or TV series).

I accomplish this with the current automation modes by setting up the fx to WRITE mode, or LATCH mode first. Then I set up the parameters. The sends are already set up. Then I do a manual pass for the sixteen bars/scene with some preroll and a lot of postroll for reverb fadeout(or other fx).

The other way to accomplish this is to suspend readout of automation on the FX track, set up the parameters and then make a time selection just on that track(selection cursor needed for track-localized selection) and hit a shortcut/button/menu function that "Writes the current setting to the time selection".

I save vast amounts of time doing exactly that in Protools every day. Transferring settings from one point of the session to another needs several time consuming workarounds in Reaper at this time, which in themselves work, but take anywhere from twice to a hundred times longer, so nobody is going to achieve in Reaper what they'll achieve in Protools, Nuendo or any Harrison or Neve console. They are what Reaper is going up against.

The underlying system is there. We will simply need more optimal ways to work with the data. That's what Nuendo has done in V4, and to some degree Protools always has always done for almost ten years since v5.1.

It'll be cool.
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Last edited by airon; 05-07-2008 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 05-07-2008, 03:22 AM   #12
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And worth remembering here, that the long termers in the DAW field took YEARS to build up their particular components to a usable state (with notation STILL needing a stack of work in all the usual suspects). The components and tools we've seen implemented in Reaper in the last 12 months alone have staggered my imagination in the speed and efficiency of build and use. There a few things we'd like to see added now, but personally i'd rather Justin and the team got it right, even with the extra time needed, and not succumb to the relentless pressure to get it done .....yesterday.

History tells us there's been plenty of disasters in the commercial daw field, as companies implement new 'features' (and old ones tarted up to sell more copies, with the companies assuming the average user is thick enough to go for it), take a LOT longer doing it, and with more people. (did i mention notation?)

I'm pleased to see a yes from the skipper regarding automation, but if it takes another month or a year, i still reckon we're going to be well in front with the final result.
Mike, i'm not telling you to shut up here, on the contrary, i admire your enthusiasm, but simply trying to maintain a wider perspective, and continue to appreciate how fortunate we are to get so much already, in such a short time.

Just two patient roubles worth..

Alex.

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Old 05-07-2008, 08:27 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post

The underlying system is there.
and that is the important part -- nothing is truly impossible --
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:52 AM   #14
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Thank you JUSTIN !!!!!

Thats all I was looking for

Later
Buzz


PS: you have done a great job !!!
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Old 05-07-2008, 09:58 AM   #15
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I love the auto(prob because it's the first one I have ever used)

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Old 05-07-2008, 10:09 AM   #16
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WOW.... so cool to have had a YES from Justin !!

Just imagine how the CockOS vision on this will be!!!

thank you!
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Old 05-07-2008, 10:17 AM   #17
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IT would be nice if it's tied in with one of the touch control Hardware devices(euphonics) so it could work like a real console.



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Old 05-07-2008, 12:37 PM   #18
Lawrence
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
what is not possible within the current design? I would like to hear more about this.
I'll try to explain as best as I can in detail.

Most of the stuff that people talk about re the automation system are subjective things they'd like to see added and that certainly can be added onto the current system. But there are a couple of non-subjective things that I don't think are technically feasible with the current design.

Of course you can still automate everything you need to so it's very usable and in the end it all gets done.

But to the point ...

The lack of a master module in the automation system design is a clear functional limitation when using control surfaces. I don't see a way to code around what amounts to a universally standard and accepted way of addressing automation modes from a hardware controller. They're built to do x, Reaper does y.

They're built to control a master section that doesn't exist in Reaper.

This also (coincidentally) crosses over to track classes. You can't control a master bus send level from a hardware controller's master FX section when there are no defined send busses. So those controls also sit idle. Like automation, each channel has it's own send levels... then each send bus has a master send level control.

Anyway...

Basic Read/Write, and switching individual tracks in/out of those basic modes are local/individual functions and are presented as such on the individual hardware channels. The actual modes of writing or editing realtime automation (trim etc), in my personal experience, are global.

There are no trim/latch/touch/crossover buttons on individual channels. Those are master module functions for good reason. On a standard automation system, engaging the write button literally means "..write automation in whatever the current mode is...".

It's a local toggle switch just like a track audio record button. On off, write or not it doesn't care what it just tells the system to write. In much the same way as when you hit a record button for audio, the master audio system (the audio engine) tells the track (all tracks get told the same thing) what you're currently doing... i.e. recording wav or mp3 or ogg. You just hit record and record whatever the master has set as the current format.

Automation systems should (imo) behave that same way with clear demarcation between the currently active "ready to go" function mode/format/what you want to do, and the engaging of that function for individual channels where and when you want to do it.

But as I said...

Quote:
Of course you can still automate everything you need to so it's very usable and in the end it all gets done.

P.S. This might be a *really* good reason for Justin to fund development of a proprietary control surface for Reaper? To take advantage of all of it's new pardigms? Might be really, really cool.

Last edited by Lawrence; 05-07-2008 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 05-09-2008, 12:12 AM   #19
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I just find it has too many options and over complicated (as with too many things in Reaper). I don't care about recording mixer automation - I just want, when I play a VSTi (which I always do in realtime) for it to faithfuly record every knob movement, aftertouch etc I make and to be able to easily edit it afterwards (ideally with options to smooth curves and eliminate too many points - something aftertouch in particular can add). Ideally I would prefer not to have to press any additional buttons to do this - if I press record in a midi track it should mean it records all I play, not just the notes. This is why I like the implementation in Podium that does exactly this and also has spline editing of automation curves which is very effective. At most something like in Sonar and Tracktion where you have a read and a write button but tbh I think even those are too much.

At the moment whatever I do in Reaper with automation turned on it just seems to make a mess of so I won't bother with it till it has a more user friendly implementation.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:10 AM   #20
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I agree with Lawrence. Time will tell.
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Old 05-09-2008, 07:48 AM   #21
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Well this is exciting. I love everything about Reaper except the automation, so this is great news. It is true that the automation is very robust. My complaints have always been about the actual usability of it.
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Old 05-09-2008, 08:29 AM   #22
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+1 for the automation upgrade.
Definitely would like to see WYSIWYG control over volume envelopes as described here:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthre...t=20184&page=2

Lets hope that the Dev. team get a chance soon.

*I*
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