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Old 04-20-2012, 06:45 PM   #41
Kenny Gioia
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Originally Posted by run, megalodon View Post
you create a climate in which the negative opinions get massaged so you don't have as open and honest of a discussion as you could have had.
I don't think what is necessary is an open and honest discussion here.

It's a theme. Not everyone is going to like it or use it.

I've seen many Reaper Theme threads where I thought, "my gawd that theme is ugly and I'll never use it". So guess what I do? Absolutely nothing.

I let others who do mostly like that theme, discuss improvements for it.

What you and that avatar guy have done is offer criticism that will only end in WT giving less to our community.

It doesn't improve the theme in any way. I don't recall WT asking what we think of his personality or his ability to have a thick skin.

Even if he does have a thin skin or is a bit too sensitive, what do you accomplish by pointing it out?

Just telling it like it is?

Most of us would prefer that you didn't.

And when you take the time to offer up something creative or constructive for this forum, I'll be sure to show you the same respect we expect of you.

Thanks
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:56 PM   #42
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I think the problem with certain negative posts is the following:

We have an option to say: "I don't like the green color on this" and that would be fine. We'd all either agree or disagree.

However, there are some of us here who, for reasons of a truly caustic personality I must assume, will instead say:

"Green sucks and if you morons can't see that then go back to you opium dens, you bunch of pansy liberal fakes. Just telling it like it is"

How does the second statement do as effectively as the first? It doesn't and is covered in too much of that person's psychic slime to ever do the job. That's how I see these posts.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:01 PM   #43
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I can't believe how much drama this is causing, good lord.

All I care about is whether it's going to fit on my HD monitor.
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:48 PM   #44
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Just a quick thanks. I can't write as eloquently as you I'm not well educated but I understand your sentiment. I don't post much either, (most questions are already answered somewhere) but I do remember your 1000th post and loved what you said.I was new to reaper then and found it to be such a positive program and community. I think there is a little to much "farting or nose blowing" at times now but life goes on the program rocks and all those clever givers I do thank.
For me I picked up reaper at a very shit time in my life and it's ethos and just brilliance helped me through this.
Anyway sorry if I'm a troll just being inspired by some of this community
peace and good luck
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Old 04-20-2012, 11:50 PM   #45
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Have to say the entertainment value of this thread has improved since I "ignored" Avatar44, though....
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Old 04-21-2012, 12:43 AM   #46
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What Kenny said...
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Old 04-21-2012, 02:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by kidz biz View Post
Just a quick thanks. I can't write as eloquently as you I'm not well educated but I understand your sentiment. I don't post much either, (most questions are already answered somewhere) but I do remember your 1000th post and loved what you said.I was new to reaper then and found it to be such a positive program and community. I think there is a little to much "farting or nose blowing" at times now but life goes on the program rocks and all those clever givers I do thank.
For me I picked up reaper at a very shit time in my life and it's ethos and just brilliance helped me through this.
Anyway sorry if I'm a troll just being inspired by some of this community
peace and good luck
You sir are "No Troll" this is the kind of inspiring sentiment that you'd find common place round hear. It seems there are people out there who want to pull this forum down. All I can suggest is adding them to your ignore list.

If everyone ignores them there is no debate.

Go spread some love .....

Hippie2000.... lol
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Old 04-21-2012, 02:45 AM   #48
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Ill tell you what, I'm getting pretty thin-skinned about being called thin-skinned. Would it help if I got a bunch of my colleagues to join the Reaper forum and leave posts explaining that they would never, ever, ever put up with even a fraction of the crap I let just run off my back without comment? Are you so self assured in your grasp of what it is I have to put up with from time to time? Or maybe you could just take my word for it, given that I have a better understanding of being me.

What you are saying is that I have to put up with anything and everything without complaint, that there cannot be a line past which I say "OK, that's enough of that bullshit." And its not like I dropped a 'goodbye cruel world'. I just took a step back. As it happens, you haven't understood why I closed the thread. You have generated a scenario where one guy made a post and then I spat the dummy. You are so assured that is what happened, so confident in your 'correctness' that you are now repeatedly lambasting me about it. But you are wrong about the cause, wrong about how you responded to it, your assuredness with which you criticise me is built on conjecture. What is real is that you are distracting me from my work. Let it go.

I'm an constantly trying to tempt others to come here and do what I do. I am constantly trying to encourage dormant themers to start up again. I am constantly trying to encourage active themers to stick with it. I have a good grasp of what is going on, there are consequences to everyone's actions, you just don't get to see it because people just ...drift away. What you see as me throwing a hissy fit is, in fact, quite the opposite. Its me sacking up and saying what a lot of people are thinking, people we all value. I suggest you pipe down, stop trying to be right, and listen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by run, megalodon View Post
you create a climate in which the negative opinions get massaged so you don't have as open and honest of a discussion as you could have had.
...and so we come to it. Am I to assume that you make no effort to choose your words when communicating negative opinion to your partner? Your family? Your Friends? Your band? Have you never worked in any creative unit? Seriously?? Because yes, this is exactly what I'm asking for and no - it leads to greater openness and honesty. Its one of the pillars of a professional creative environment. Source : we all do this stuff every day, and this is how we do it.

I posted some pictures. I went back and edited them out. Is it the very fact that the pictures were popular that makes me such a bad person? Eh? What? If you work for an abusive boss, and you have no problem getting a job elsewhere, you quit. If I work for an abusive client (there's been one or two over the years!), I fire him. There's no drama, no slamming of doors, no tantrums. Just an 'I'm sorry, that's not acceptable to me.' What happened here is even less than that: I took a step away. I locked the thread (no drama - one drop down at the bottom of the thread, one button click) because it was generating abuse to another user (me, as it happens) and took the pictures down because I guessed someone would just start a new thread about them (rightly, wouldn't you say?) I didn't delete the thread. I censored no one but myself. How on earth can you argue with me that is not OK?

Right now I perceive (perhaps wrongly, but perhaps not) a worrying trend of people slightly backing away from their communication with the forum. Not just me. Not just themers. Read between the lines of what I'm saying. We need to get this stuff right, and that is why I am speaking up.
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Old 04-21-2012, 03:21 AM   #49
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Right now I perceive (perhaps wrongly, but perhaps not) a worrying trend of people slightly backing away from their communication with the forum. Not just me. Not just themers. Read between the lines of what I'm saying. We need to get this stuff right, and that is why I am speaking up.
What we need is firm and decisive action from Moderators to ban trolls and those that make personal attacks on others. Simple as that. This should not have got out of hand.
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:06 AM   #50
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Very sad to read such posts again on this forum, especially in this thread.
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:19 AM   #51
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look I think it sucks that people say stuff just to get a rise, but they think it works for them and that's just the way it is. We have a saying "the squeaky wheel gets all the attention". There's that awesome thread called "Why do your recordings sound like ass" or something like that, where one guy would write posts that would take 5 a4 pages worth that would start all sorts of bitching back and forth, now to get the gold from that thread you have sift through a whole lotta.....

One of the main reasons these people have any power is that you engage with them. It started off with some joker setting himself up as some lone voice of reason cause we were all giddy over a BLOODY GOOD THEME. Generally I read the first sentence and if I think the guy is a wanker, I move on to the next post. Purely subjective I know, but nine times out of ten you're right(I had the stats done)
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Old 04-21-2012, 04:40 AM   #52
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pffff, what a great idea to open this tread again, it took less than 48 hours to turn a very productive topic in a stupid flame war again.

Sound likes the whole reaper comunity need a group therapy

Come on white tie, your theme is awesome, and I understand the goal of this tread is to make it even more awesome, but it's 70% of "I cant' wait", 20% of free angryness, 9% of dogs wearing sunglasses pictures and maybe 1% of actually moving forward comments. You are wasting your precuious time to answer to attaking comment, and the more you aswer the more you get attacked.

I don't think this tread is reaching an helpfull goal right now
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:23 AM   #53
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Generally I read the first sentence and if I think the guy is a wanker, I move on to the next post.
But that's because you have nothing invested in it.

Post some pictures of your family or your kids and watch the insults fly and see if you can just move on to the next post.

I can only speak from my perspective but when I'm mid-project, I definitely NEED positive voices in my ear.

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Old 04-21-2012, 06:28 AM   #54
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Well put, WT.

How about adding a StackExchange powered part to the forum where all the best stuff floats to the top, dumb stuff drops to the bottom or evaporates, but dumb people asking great questions still are rewarded as much as the smart people providing smart answers? It's pretty troll-proof imho. I also like the browsing experience: "Oh I think this is stupid. Let me downvote it so others don't have to see this crap." Much better than just: "Oh I think this is stupid. I should probably just ignore it."
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:50 AM   #55
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Well put, WT.

How about adding a StackExchange powered part to the forum where all the best stuff floats to the top, dumb stuff drops to the bottom or evaporates, but dumb people asking great questions still are rewarded as much as the smart people providing smart answers? It's pretty troll-proof imho. I also like the browsing experience: "Oh I think this is stupid. Let me downvote it so others don't have to see this crap." Much better than just: "Oh I think this is stupid. I should probably just ignore it."
Like Reddit?
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:43 AM   #56
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Like Reddit?
Like Stack Overflow (most programmers would be able to tell you how awesome it is).

Also see the Audio & Video Production site, focused a bit more on 'our' field of expertise.
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:28 AM   #57
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Like Stack Overflow (most programmers would be able to tell you how awesome it is).
YES! That would indeed be a useful view for this forum!
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:19 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But that's because you have nothing invested in it.

Post some pictures of your family or your kids and watch the insults fly and see if you can just move on to the next post.

I can only speak from my perspective but when I'm mid-project, I definitely NEED positive voices in my ear.
Well put Kenny. It doesn't matter who you are and what level of music (or any trade or craft) that a person is at, having support and positivity can be a huge deciding factor determining not only how it gets completed, but also whether it even gets completed at all.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:20 AM   #59
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Or just ban the troublemakers. Who needs their crap?

Freedom of speech only applies to limiting the government's ability to control you. There is no requirement that any of us have to guarantee the free speech of some creep who just wants to throw Molotov cocktails.

I'm staying out of here for a while (not that anyone would or should care). While there are some very friendly and helpful people on this forum, the nasty folk that are indulged and tolerated drag it down for me.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:39 AM   #60
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Or just ban the troublemakers. Who needs their crap?

Freedom of speech only applies to limiting the government's ability to control you. [...]
As a legal opinion, such an extreme position is somewhat outdated.

You're right in pointing out that the principal applicability of constitutional rights is 'vertical', i.e. between a state and its subjects.

However, most modern theories of constitutional rights also recognize some 'horizontal' applicability for many fundamental / constitutional rights, meaning that a state has a duty to ensure that such rights apply in relations between legal entities like citizens and corporations.

The principles of proportionality and subsidiarity imply that when censorship (banning people) is considered to be a more extreme measure than e.g. a system like StackExchange, OR a less effective one (as I certainly think it is), a government would not be allowed to censor/ban. While this forum is certainly not a government, the same logic does apply here to a large extent as a matter of common sense (although indeed not so much as a matter of constitutional law).
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Right now I perceive (perhaps wrongly, but perhaps not) a worrying trend of people slightly backing away from their communication with the forum. Not just me. Not just themers. Read between the lines of what I'm saying. We need to get this stuff right, and that is why I am speaking up.
Oh you're not wrong, I've been feeling this for awhile and it sucks! This forum is evolving into 'just another forum', with all the crap that comes with it.

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Old 04-21-2012, 10:49 AM   #62
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I agree.

There are plenty of forums out there like Topix etc. to air divergent views and prejudices.

We're all guilty from time to time of going off topic but I really enjoy the threads when they are, at least in some manner, music and music production oriented.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:52 AM   #63
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"be the change you want to see in the world [forum]"

...or something
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:59 AM   #64
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While this forum is certainly not a government, the same logic does apply here to a large extent as a matter of common sense (although indeed not so much as a matter of constitutional law).
Yeah, but this forum functions in a civil law manner, and one of the main principles of civil law is the principle of disposition: parties can arrange their obligations in any way they see fit, unless it is something strictly prohibited (for example, a contract with a hitman )
Cockos made an open offer to anybody to join the forum and anybody who accepts it, accepts their conditions.

Or at least that`s how it works in Europe but I guess the fundamental principles are the same for any western capitalist country.

Of course, I agree with your post, but the question here is definitely not the the one of legal nature, but questions of moral, which has no strict rules and it all deepens on us as a society, what will we deem fair.

Sorry, for the spam. The point is: let`s all be nice to each other
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Old 04-21-2012, 03:45 PM   #65
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But that's because you have nothing invested in it.

Post some pictures of your family or your kids and watch the insults fly and see if you can just move on to the next post.

I can only speak from my perspective but when I'm mid-project, I definitely NEED positive voices in my ear.
True I wouldn't find it easy at all. But anything of artistic merit from Dali to Beatles had their detractors
but also shit stirrers. They are two distinct types of people, one might have valid criticism, the other are just craving for attention.
A lot of art is made in the smelting pot of these pressures.
It's pretty easy to tell whether someone is been a critic or a low brow brawler getting cheap frills.
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Old 04-21-2012, 06:22 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Right now I perceive (perhaps wrongly, but perhaps not) a worrying trend of people slightly backing away from their communication with the forum. Not just me. Not just themers. Read between the lines of what I'm saying. We need to get this stuff right, and that is why I am speaking up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluzkat View Post
Oh you're not wrong, I've been feeling this for awhile and it sucks! This forum is evolving into 'just another forum', with all the crap that comes with it.
I can confirm this because I feel that you have just described me.

But *damnit* I do keep checking back, not only to check on the progress of this theme (and WT has created some of the coolest GUI interfaces that I have ever seen), but there are some really cool people here as well.


Disclaimer: The above is stated as a truly honest opinion from the poster. No balls were licked before, during, after, or as a result of the aforementioned post.
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:19 PM   #67
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"be the change you want to see in the world [forum]"
Yes! Absolutely.
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Old 04-21-2012, 07:53 PM   #68
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True I wouldn't find it easy at all. But anything of artistic merit from Dali to Beatles had their detractors
but also shit stirrers. They are two distinct types of people, one might have valid criticism, the other are just craving for attention.
A lot of art is made in the smelting pot of these pressures.
It's pretty easy to tell whether someone is been a critic or a low brow brawler getting cheap frills.
It is easy to tell when you step away and think about it.

But in the heat of the moment when you're creating and you're just about to give up, the last things you need is some anonymous wanker telling you how much you suck.

Which is why most artists don't even read the criticism.

But when you invite people into the beta process, you're giving them a privilege.

Imagine if you were interning at Abbey Road and the Beatles asked you what you thought of the snare sound on "Come Together".

And you said "It doesn't really matter. The song sucks".

How long do you think you'll be interning at that studio?

And how often will they be asking for outside opinions or letting people in on the process?
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Old 04-21-2012, 08:00 PM   #69
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...I do keep [coming] back, ...[because] there are some really cool people here as well.
Amen, Syd! I am an optimist and won't give up hope since this forum has proven to be a great thing on so many occasions.
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Old 04-21-2012, 09:54 PM   #70
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Yep lots of cool people here and always best to ignore the trolls but they do pile up like Saruman's Uruks at Helm's Deep, only without the moderators cleaning house by the first light of the third day.

Learning to give criticism with a polite tone is a one of those skills that betters you in life. It's not lying or brown nosing.

People often mistakenly believe that honesty is blurting out whatever unbiased nonsense happens to be in the queue and it's hurtful. So if your definition of honesty is such, it would be wise to re-evaluate that.

Of course then there are plenty of people here who use these spaces to hurt others.

And to that, keep it up WhiteTie don't let em bring you down.

-robo
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:02 PM   #71
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Yep lots of cool people here and always best to ignore the trolls but they do pile up like Saruman's Uruks at Helm's Deep, only without the moderators cleaning house by the first light of the third day.

Learning to give criticism with a polite tone is a one of those skills that betters you in life. It's not lying or brown nosing.

People often mistakenly believe that honesty is blurting out whatever unbiased nonsense happens to be in the queue and it's hurtful. So if your definition of honesty is such, it would be wise to re-evaluate that.

Of course then there are plenty of people here who use these spaces to hurt others.

And to that, keep it up WhiteTie don't let em bring you down.

-robo
Amen!!!
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Old 04-21-2012, 11:12 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
It is easy to tell when you step away and think about it.

But in the heat of the moment when you're creating and you're just about to give up, the last things you need is some anonymous wanker telling you how much you suck.

Which is why most artists don't even read the criticism.

But when you invite people into the beta process, you're giving them a privilege.

Imagine if you were interning at Abbey Road and the Beatles asked you what you thought of the snare sound on "Come Together".

And you said "It doesn't really matter. The song sucks".

How long do you think you'll be interning at that studio?

And how often will they be asking for outside opinions or letting people in on the process?
Yer fair point
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Old 04-22-2012, 04:37 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

Imagine if you were interning at Abbey Road and the Beatles asked you what you thought of the snare sound on "Come Together".

And you said "It doesn't really matter. The song sucks".
Yes but you'd be right......it does suck.

Ok can't we all just shake hands, put the past behind us and move on?

White Tie is obviously a very talented Artist and Imperial is obviously a very popular project. Let's just lend our moral support and see what happens in the future......
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Old 04-22-2012, 06:42 AM   #74
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[...] Ok can't we all just shake hands, put the past behind us and move on?

White Tie is obviously a very talented Artist and Imperial is obviously a very popular project. Let's just lend our moral support and see what happens in the future......
I'm all for smoking peace pipes. But I also figure there have always been a fair number of people lending moral support to his (imho awesome) work-in-progress, right? So I don't think that's what he meant in his conclusion:
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[...] We need to get this stuff right, and that is why I am speaking up.
I'm still interested to hear what White Tie himself thinks about my suggestion re: a StackExchange type of system. I figure he would be the type of user with a *massive* reputation score. 'All of us' know that WT is *the* authority on theming REAPER, don't we? StackExchange shows that a forum platform can simply be trained to use such collective knowledge.

Such a system is probably best at 'getting things right' for question/answer threads where answers can be judged with some measure of objectivity (and we do have many of those in the REAPER forum, don't we?), but what I don't know, is whether such a system could also 'get things right' for the type of work-in-progress + feedback discussion threads that WT has been posting on. But perhaps simply improving the constructive/troll-ration in some parts of the forum may also have a significant spill-over effect throughout the entire forum / community.
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Old 04-22-2012, 07:58 AM   #75
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smile! you're posting in an historic thread!

Never before has there been such an explosion over a theme. This thread just may well get a mention in a documentary someday.

i support WT for doing whatever he wants.

i really wish WT would set up a donate button for the theme so people could put their money where their mouths are.

and one question for WT, if you did have a design office with attractive assistants who unquestionably do your bidding, would that open up your work flow?
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Old 04-22-2012, 08:36 AM   #76
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I'm all for smoking peace pipes. But I also figure there have always been a fair number of people lending moral support to his (imho awesome) work-in-progress, right? So I don't think that's what he meant in his conclusion:

I'm still interested to hear what White Tie himself thinks about my suggestion re: a StackExchange type of system. I figure he would be the type of user with a *massive* reputation score. 'All of us' know that WT is *the* authority on theming REAPER, don't we? StackExchange shows that a forum platform can simply be trained to use such collective knowledge.

Such a system is probably best at 'getting things right' for question/answer threads where answers can be judged with some measure of objectivity (and we do have many of those in the REAPER forum, don't we?), but what I don't know, is whether such a system could also 'get things right' for the type of work-in-progress + feedback discussion threads that WT has been posting on. But perhaps simply improving the constructive/troll-ration in some parts of the forum may also have a significant spill-over effect throughout the entire forum / community.
I don't even know if such a system is possible here using this software.

I think when WT says he wants to get it right he means with the theme.

IOW - If there is some type of real specific issue that someone sees being a problem for workflow, he'd like to know about.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:00 AM   #77
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I think this could all be fixed with a gross application of bass traps, 16/44.1 conversion, and science.


When a forum reaches a certain critical population point, the fact that people are different and strange comes to the fore. People are generally happy being blithely unaware of this, because it stifles creativity contemplating just how different people think and consider things, and how alienating that difference is.

Facebook does this to me, because it has made me finally accept the notion that "there really is a lot of dumb people in the world, incredibly dumb, as well as misguided and delusional people". They really are the majority.

That, having become palpable, is shocking to your creative senses, because the nature of subtlety as an art suddenly becomes less piquant when you realize *most people don't have a very cultured point of view*. Whether it's the nuance of the edge of a shadow blending to a certain luminosity, or the pick attack of a note, when you figure out that it's not universal to recognize such things it becomes demotivating.

Making the step to become completely 100% armored against a dilution of one's taste is a trick, IMO.
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Old 04-22-2012, 09:45 AM   #78
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^^^^^^^^^^^ If I could upvote this, I would.

Indeed, 'twas was a big surprise to me as well.
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Old 04-22-2012, 05:33 PM   #79
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I don't even know if such a system is possible here using this software.
Probably not. That's why I mentioned it could be StackExchange powered. But I wouldn't worry much about technical feasibility issues, I'm sure Cockos could somehow make it work if they would decide that it is what they really want to do.

Also, I don't see much need for integration anyway, apart from linking (unique) user names. I don't really need to see the number of forum posts any user has made - but I would like to see some objective measure of how valuable some user is to some user community. StackExchange is just an example that of a different way of doing things than we're used to over here.
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I think when WT says he wants to get it right he means with the theme. [...]
Are you sure about that? Let me quote that phrase again with a little more context:
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[...] Right now I perceive (perhaps wrongly, but perhaps not) a worrying trend of people slightly backing away from their communication with the forum. Not just me. Not just themers. Read between the lines of what I'm saying. We need to get this stuff right, and that is why I am speaking up.
I *really* don't think WT is talking about getting his *theme* right there, nor soliciting workflow-related comments. I think it is about the general atmosphere on this forum. But only the good man himself knows, of course.
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Old 04-22-2012, 05:45 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
I think this could all be fixed with a gross application of bass traps, 16/44.1 conversion, and science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chip mcdonald View Post
[...] Facebook does this to me, because it has made me finally accept the notion that "there really is a lot of dumb people in the world, incredibly dumb, as well as misguided and delusional people". They really are the majority.[...]
While I agree completely with your point here, I do find it a bit odd that you mention a social network like Facebook. I mean, you chose to become 'friends' with every single one of them yourself? A forum doesn't really work well when people would routinely block most other users, but aren't social networks designed to work that way? Even while I have some pretty dumb friends (don't we all... ), I still find that I have relatively interesting feeds on my Facebook or Twitter accounts, compared to the average noise/signal ratio on the open interwebs. Especially when using a dedicated account for some academic or technical field of expertise, I can even get a pretty high quality of communication on social networks in some cases.
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