Old 05-29-2021, 11:53 AM   #1
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Default v6.29+dev0529 - May 29 2021

v6.29+dev0529 - May 29 2021
  • * Includes feature branch: render normalization
  • * Includes feature branch: MIDI editor note reordering
  • * Includes feature branch: EEL2 x86_64/SSE
  • * Includes feature branch: VST3 bridging
  • * Includes feature branch: media item lanes
  • + ReaScript: add GetSetMediaTrackInfo() B_SOLO_DEFEAT and B_AUTO_RECARM
  • + Render: ignore preference to auto-close render dialog if normalizing or dummy rendering
  • + Render: support optional LUFS handling of LFE and surround channels when normalizing
  • # JSFX: add LUFS-M histogram support
  • # JSFX: add short-term LUFS to loudness meter
  • # JSFX: fix loudness peak meter channel order
  • # JSFX: improve loudness meter layout at small sizes, hide RMS by default
  • # JSFX: loudness meter is LUFS-multichannel-aware
  • # Render: fix dummy render of multichannel files
This thread is for pre-release features discussion. Use the Feature Requests forum for other requests.

Changelog - Pre-Releases

Generated by X-Raym's REAPER ChangeLog to BBCode
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Old 05-29-2021, 11:59 AM   #2
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Just after posting I noticed that the JSFX loudness meter has the current and maximum value display reversed for LUFS-M -- the numbers are correct, but they are displayed in the wrong place. It's fixed for the next build, but if anyone wants to change it locally, you can swap ylo and yhi in lines 451 and 462.

Last edited by schwa; 05-29-2021 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 05-29-2021, 12:03 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Just after posting I noticed that the JSFX loudness meter has the current and maximum value display reversed for LUFS-M. It's fixed for the next build, but if anyone wants to change it locally, you can swap ylo and yhi in lines 451 and 462.
is 529a already the fixed one then?

Thanks,
Mario
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:05 PM   #4
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Did some quick tests with the 5.1 mixes.

I have deviations from 0 to 0.4 dB. Pretty damn close, especially since the deviations are all positive, so there's never an overshoot.

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Old 05-29-2021, 01:34 PM   #5
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The right LUFS number to compare to the render is LUFS-I, which looks like it was -20.4 when the item looped.

The peak difference could be caused by FX on the track after the JSFX meter, or a track volume or pan setting. If there is no FX after the JSFX meter and the track settings are untouched, can you share the project cropped down to just that track?
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:43 PM   #6
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Thanks, can you share the "tabla 02" file as well?
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:51 PM   #7
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Thanks for sharing the project. The track volume is set to +0.36dB which accounts for the difference. Please note that the dry-render action is called "Calculate loudness of selected items, including take and track FX and settings, via dry run render".
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:52 PM   #8
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+1 for incorporating LUFS metering into the master track metering.
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Thanks for sharing the project. The track volume is set to +0.36dB which accounts for the difference. Please note that the dry-render action is called "Calculate loudness of selected items, including take and track FX and settings, via dry run render".
Oh, yeah... Sorry, didn't notice the change on the track... Then everything is correct. I think I should delete my messages.
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Old 05-29-2021, 02:13 PM   #10
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No, it's ok, it's helpful to have the conversation. Thanks!
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Old 05-29-2021, 02:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
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No, it's ok, it's helpful to have the conversation. Thanks!
Thank you for doing a great job. I would like not to forget about item lanes))))
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Old 05-29-2021, 03:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I get -27.8 with the reaper action. The REAPER JSFX will show -24.8 unless the media item is set to play back on only one track channel. If you're seeing something different, maybe that's something that got corrected since the +dev build, so please check back when the next +dev is posted.
Tested again. Indeed now it works also for mono files.

Love how all the render normalization and loudness features are turning out!
So far all seems to work great for me. Can't test multichannel but I am sure airon has done that thoroughly. Only thing I would still have liked to see (as said a few times) is having normalization outside of the popup and in the main render window (like in this mockup: https://i.ibb.co/6PVcNWD/Render-Options.png), or at least the checkbox to activate/deactivate it. But those are details, important is that it works reliably and quickly and it does that now

Regarding embedded meters I have another request.. given that embedding metering plugins such as the loudness JSFX on the master becomes more and more common, would it be possible to have a way to flag plugins to not be processed on render? Currently in my template I have 4 metering plugins embedded on the master which considerably reduce render speed and thus I have to switch them off before each render to maximize speed. I surely am not the only one that would benefit from it?

Btw I also agree with bFooz, would be nice to have an option to switch the master RMS meter to a LUFS meter.

Sorry for all the requests.. you have implemented so many of them already in the last few dev cycles, I am super grateful!
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Old 05-29-2021, 09:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
+1 for incorporating LUFS metering into the master track metering.
First of all, thanks for all the LUFS goodies, devs! And then, I have to say that I fully agree with this...
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Old 05-29-2021, 11:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
+1 for incorporating LUFS metering into the master track metering.
Definitely!)
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Old 05-30-2021, 01:00 AM   #15
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@Phazma
For FX not processed at render, current solution is the the global MonitorFX chain, a nice place for scopes and analyzer plugins. (but not integrated in a project as it is global).
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Old 05-30-2021, 02:21 AM   #16
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@Phazma
For FX not processed at render, current solution is the the global MonitorFX chain, a nice place for scopes and analyzer plugins. (but not integrated in a project as it is global).
I know about MonitorFX but the problem is that the UIs can not be embedded on the Master. I even made a FR about adding a MonitorFX section to the Master MCP (https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=253883), so that UIs can be embedded, but I guess that would be way more complicated to do than just add an option to not render a specific instance of a plugin (or a specific type of plugin that never needs to render anyway).

I thought it was a way more common approach to save screen real estate by embedding metering plugins in the master, which would make my request valid. But if this is not as widespread as I thought then I can understand the devs not wanting to add such an option..

Just to be sure to understand each other, this is how the Master FX chain looks on my default template (and for faster render I always have to remember to switch the meters off and later on):

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Old 05-30-2021, 04:30 AM   #17
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Hi Schwa,

While you are working on JS loudness meter..can you pls add LEQ-m also to it ? LEQ-m is still used for theatrical formats. Pls..Also An Option to horizontal metering in the loudness meter so that we can dock it in a part of our window pls
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Old 05-30-2021, 05:52 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazma View Post

Schwa, is it possible to add a new layout for the master track to accomodate the Loudness Meter and make it look like this when embedded in MCP? That looks simple and good!
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Old 05-30-2021, 07:00 AM   #19
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While we are talking about embedded UI. Is it possible that someday somehow we can change background color? I made an example how this might look:


Full black (0,0,0) looks like an alien in any theme
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Old 05-30-2021, 07:04 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Schwa, is it possible to add a new layout for the master track to accomodate the Loudness Meter and make it look like this when embedded in MCP? That looks simple and good!
I think I should mention that this is not the default theme (in this one the master MCP is as narrow as the mixer MCP) and not the Cockos Loudness Meter (it is the Tiny Ebu by TBProAudio). For me this works well because I only need to see the LUFS Int value and for others who only need that I can recommend it wholeheartedly.

Reaper's loudness meter is a bit less minimalistic and probably should also stay that way for those who want to see more than just the value. I think for the embedded version it would ideally show only one meter (which you can choose by disabling the others), but show it fully and use multiple instances for different meters. Ideally it would look somewhat like this (but I guess it would take too much dev-time to make):

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Old 05-30-2021, 07:05 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Daodan View Post
While we are talking about embedded UI. Is it possible that someday somehow we can change background color?
+1! I was just browsing the other day, hoping to find out how to change it, but seems not possible.. perhaps by allowing to set something like gfx_bg in the jsfx @gfx section?
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:19 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
I think I should mention that this is not the default theme (in this one the master MCP is as narrow as the mixer MCP) and not the Cockos Loudness Meter (it is the Tiny Ebu by TBProAudio). For me this works well because I only need to see the LUFS Int value and for others who only need that I can recommend it wholeheartedly.

Reaper's loudness meter is a bit less minimalistic and probably should also stay that way for those who want to see more than just the value. I think for the embedded version it would ideally show only one meter (which you can choose by disabling the others), but show it fully and use multiple instances for different meters. Ideally it would look somewhat like this (but I guess it would take too much dev-time to make):

This is how it looks like when the JSFX is floating (which is good enough to me):

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?c...TzvoAE2QzLPOtV

And this is how it looks like when it's not floating (looks terrible):

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?c...xlyW0SMfl5Eney
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:35 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
This is how it looks like when the JSFX is floating (which is good enough to me):

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?c...TzvoAE2QzLPOtV
The way it looks here actually is perfect. Haven’t noticed that on my system (probably didn’t try floating on default theme)) and thought there was no space for all meters when embedded.

Anyway the way it looks on this image is how it should look also when the window is not floating.
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Old 05-30-2021, 08:51 AM   #24
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Wow, very nice work on the new 'multi' Meter, loudness Norm. and other new features!
– I think the jsfx is great for building a native suite of embedded meters and analyzers, for mixing duties and finalizing tasks.

Here on mac/retina, I made some experimental tweaking, only to see if I could fit in the js with 3 full meters and readout when embedded in mcp and mixer master. Changed the labels, colors, u-value and also @gfx-size. Below an example using u=6*gfx_ext_retina and @gfx 300 400, the original js is also showed on top. Perhaps useful for the development,



Wishes for the rt meter:
– would be nice to be able to set a reference level, a horz. line in a different color.
– when measuring material in Mono, a Mid-option would be convenient for correct reading.


Mixer Master, loudness meter
For the sake of simplicity, a big +1 for LUFS on the mixer master, optional to RMS.
On mixer master meter, the image meter_strip_v_rms does not make use of the last four blocks: e,f,g and h. If implemented like RMS, it can be an opportunity for themers to create custom meter graphics to display with loudness.

0dBFS clip indication
@Phazma, as observed by you and others, the meters in Reaper show clip at 0dBFS even when there's no full scale overs. Me too wonder if this is by design, a consequence of summing math, or perhaps a bug(?) My other DAWs do not indicate clip at zero, and I find it useful for checking plugins and trans-coded material.

Also I wish we could have a Preference to set X consecutive FS samples for OVER, to let the user decide when it should light up
.

Last edited by PhelixK; 05-30-2021 at 09:37 AM. Reason: @
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Old 05-30-2021, 09:23 AM   #25
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0dBFS clip indication
@Thonex, as observed by you and others, the meters in Reaper show clip at 0dBFS even when there's no full scale overs. Me too wonder if this is by design, a consequence of summing math, or perhaps a bug(?) My other DAWs do not indicate clip at zero, and I find it useful for checking plugins and trans-coded material.

Also I wish we could have a Preference to set X consecutive FS samples for OVER, to let the user decide when it should light up
.
Can’t find any post by Thonex but I pointed that out too in the v6.29+dev0528 thread.
I agree that user customizable treshold for overs would be nice but I can see devs hesitate about that as it can lead to trouble for inexperienced users. Anyway setting the overs to above 0.0 rather than at 0.0 would be great certainly!

Btw very nice work on the meters! Would love to see them like this
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Old 05-30-2021, 09:33 AM   #26
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Hi, I'm so sorry -mixed up your user-name I certainly meant to address you Phazma!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazma View Post
Can’t find any post by Thonex but I pointed that out too in the v6.29+dev0528 thread.
I agree that user customizable treshold for overs would be nice but I can see devs hesitate about that as it can lead to trouble for inexperienced users. Anyway setting the overs to above 0.0 rather than at 0.0 would be great certainly!

Btw very nice work on the meters! Would love to see them like this
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Old 05-30-2021, 09:54 AM   #27
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thanks for these great new loudness measurements developments !

Please find my remarks below.

We would need an "auto" option ON or OFF to cumulate the Loudness values when playing different items. For now, every time we play, the fx reset the values. Also a reset knob to reset the values whenever we want.

Maybe add a way to show more clearly the max true peak value considering all the channels so that we can quickly read the digital value. Same for Max short term loudness value, it is just a question of reading. Maybe add (could be an option) digital values showing the results under the graphs with bigger digits (Max True peak, Max Short Term, Max Momentary)
Max true peak value becomes red if it goes above our max true peak target value (-3 dBTP or -1 dBTP for example).

We also need to read the LRA value.

A different color like red that would be linked to the loudness target when showing the loudness metering. When the meter goes above -23.0, the blue color becomes red so that we easily read the values. The target loudness value could be in another color in the metering scale so we can identify our target.

In the render process, would be nice to add also the Max True peak -3 dBTP or - 1 dBTP (depends the target) normalize option
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:20 AM   #28
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Quote:
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In the render process, would be nice to add also the Max True peak -3 dBTP or - 1 dBTP (depends the target) normalize option
Agreed. This would require a default transparent limiter and/or the option to select an alternative for personal preference e.g. Loudmax, x42-limiter, Fabfilter etc.


Also +1 to the rest of your response. Option to reset readings or accumulate is excellent and definitely an LRA value is required. Color changes for when going above target would be the icing on the cake.
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:28 AM   #29
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Devs, Thanks for all the Loudness things, much appreciated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
+1 for incorporating LUFS metering into the master track metering.
+1 for that.
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:30 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Schwa, is it possible to add a new layout for the master track to accomodate the Loudness Meter and make it look like this when embedded in MCP? That looks simple and good!
+1 for that too!
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:35 AM   #31
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One other feature request that would be epic for loudness workflow is a normalize button on the JSFX meter to add or remove gain to hit a chosen target.

e.g. Set the target in the meter to -18 LUFS integrated and then after play-through press "normalize" to automatically add or remove gain (knob/slider next to normalize button to show by how much). Klangfreund Multimeter does this brilliantly and works for all the loudness types and true peak targets. Often it is good to get all of this done as part of the mixing/mastering instead of blindly normalizing as part of the export.
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Berg View Post
In the render process, would be nice to add also the Max True peak -3 dBTP or - 1 dBTP (depends the target) normalize option
Better would be (like for the other normalization targets) a textbox where the user could type any value and not just -1 or -3. I agree with BethHarmon too, I can’t see the point in true peak normalization if not in conjunction with loudness normalization and to reliably meet both loudness and true peak targets a limiter would be needed.
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Old 05-30-2021, 10:42 AM   #33
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Just tried the JSFX loudness meter and noticed an immediate problem. The peak hold values across the various meters are not consistent in terms of position above or below the meters. I would argue strongly that the held values should be on the bottom nearest the labels and the constantly changing "live" values at the top.

EDIT: I have also found that compared to other meter plugins it doesn't feel optimized as I get quite a few audio drop-outs when running it. I can run the x42 ebu r128 meter and others at 64 samples / 2 buffers with no problems. Even at 512 I get the odd one or two. Seems to happen randomly but repeatable when I click on the meter to reset (and only the first time).

Last edited by chmaha; 05-30-2021 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 05-30-2021, 12:47 PM   #34
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Default Random question on LUFS multichannel

Random question: I haven't been able to find literature on how LUFS for multichannel works... I've found a couple of links talking about it, especially when dialog anchor comes into play (a Program LUFS of -27 on program material may result in a dialog LUFS of -24 on a romatic comedy, while a Program LUFS of -27 on program material may result in a dialog LUFS of -28 in an action-packed movie with gunfire, car chases, and explosions)

Loudness for Broadcast
https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/the...broadcast.html
https://film-mixing.com/2016/05/02/m...cast-loudness/
https://partnerhelp.netflixstudios.c...R6W2QRCDABGS4Z

Real-time Loudness control in multichannel car audio application
https://www.aes.org/conferences/2017...ive_ENpp_s.pdf


But how does that all work together when you start getting into things like 7.1, or Dolby Atmos that could have up to 128 channels? Do you first measure the relevant LUFS of each individual channel and then apply some sort of weighted algorithm based on the number of channels, where those channels are, the dialog channel, and the individual other channels?
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Old 05-30-2021, 01:09 PM   #35
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^ The official spec is here:
https://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r...0-I!!PDF-E.pdf
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:55 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Oh, yea I feel dumb now haha. I forgot I already had the specs downloaded for EBU and ITU-R. For anyone with the link above not working, here is a link for optimized versions of the following:

AESTD1004_1_15_10
Digitaldistortion
EBU Tech 3341
EBU Tech 3342
EBU Tech 3343
EBU Tech 3344
ITU-R BS.1770-0
ITU-R BS.1770-1
ITU-R BS.1770-2
ITU-R BS.1770-3
ITU-R BS.1770-4
Level_paper_AES109
R-REC-BS.1770-0-200607-S!!PDF-E
R-REC-BS.1770-1-200709-S!!PDF-E
R-REC-BS.1770-2-201103-S!!PDF-E
R-REC-BS.1770-3-201208-S!!PDF-E
R-REC-BS.1770-4-201510-I!!PDF-E
understanding_microphone_sensitivity

(obviously, there are some duplicates in there)

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aoz5nDzevbl1mK1F...e163Q?e=9xQVHf

Full versions here:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aoz5nDzevbl1l4cQ...GH9Yw?e=KYCbs2
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