Recording acoustic with dynamic microphone, any ideas
Hi there,
I`ve been playing with Reaper for a couple of months, trying to make decent recordings of my own material.
I basically play a range of string instruments - nylon acoustic guitar, mandolin, among others - and want to record them with the best possible quality. Same to my own voice.
What I have is a Scarlett 2i2 audio interface and a Samson Q7 microphone. Until now this is what I`ve achieved with that gear:
It would be great if someone could go there, listen and give me any feedback. I`m mostly concerned with recording my acoustic instruments without having them sounding like plastic.
It would be good to record my voice with some ambiance too.
Thanks a lot for reading this. I`ll be awaiting for some feedback.
As stated, everything sounds to be very close, so placing mics a bit farther away from source will help. I am also hearing quite a lot of low-mid buildup, so in addition to mic placement you may need to do some eq work.
In all but the last recording I am hearing 50~60 cycle hum, so you may have a ground loop somewhere in your recording path.
All sounds good to me but you could stand to back off the vocal mic a little - too much proximity effect on the bottom end at present.
And that is on a set of decent monitors that tend, if anything, towards bass lightness.
Hi, ivansc.
Thank you. I`ll try to step back from the mic a little but the problem is, when I do that, the signal tend to be very low. I only seem to get a nice signal if I sing very close to the mic.
Maybe that's an issue from the Samson Q7, I don't know yet.
As stated, everything sounds to be very close, so placing mics a bit farther away from source will help. I am also hearing quite a lot of low-mid buildup, so in addition to mic placement you may need to do some eq work.
In all but the last recording I am hearing 50~60 cycle hum, so you may have a ground loop somewhere in your recording path.
Loved the music!
Hi ronmac, I`m glad that you enjoyed the songs. That's the purpose of it all, in the end.
The closeness problem was noticed by other people here so that`s definitely will be something that I`ll try to improve on the next recordings. I`m also thinking about getting another mic...
Your Samson mic is not a good mic and one can hear that. But good enough for song sketches, demo sketches.
If you want a good mic for a fair price and a mic that can be used for almost all instruments and if you prefer a dynamic mic
Beyerdynamic M201TG
maybe one of the best mics in the world,
I usually do not like Beyerdynamic very much, but this mic is an exception.
Hi, Lord Marceaux,
Thanks for the indication. I did a little research and looks like this brand is not available here in Brazil... Maybe there would be something from another brand?
Thanks for the indication. I did a little research and looks like this brand is not available here in Brazil... Maybe there would be something from another brand?
Sure SM 57 or Sennheiser MD 421 - MD 421 is one of the best dynamic allround mics in this price category (< 500 $)!
Last edited by Lord Marceaux de Champs; 02-11-2015 at 11:09 AM.
Recording acoustic string instruments is as much about the space you are recording in and how you use that (if it is a nice space) or try to minimize it effects (if it is not such a nice space) and no less important than the equipment you use. It is unlikely that buying another dynamic mic is going to yield much better results.
From what I heard in the recordings there are a few issues that you can work on to improve the sound without needing to buy another mic:
1) find out where the constant low frequency hum is coming from
2) vary the micing distance until you find a spot that gives you a solid fundamental sound with a bit of "air" from the room
3) experiment with eq on your tracks to make them feel more alive
Although there are dynamic mics that can do an OK job of capturing the richness of acoustic music, it is more often the case that a small diameter condensor is better suited to the job.
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdechery
Hi, ivansc.
Thank you. I`ll try to step back from the mic a little but the problem is, when I do that, the signal tend to be very low. I only seem to get a nice signal if I sing very close to the mic.
Maybe that's an issue from the Samson Q7, I don't know yet.
Hopefully you are not trying to record the guitar and the vocal in one pass. Doesnt sound like it.
It really isnt worth walking away from your existing mic and spending more money indiscriminately before you figure out how to get the best possible results from what you have.
Part of the vocal sound thang is that you have to learn to sing correctly into a mic, which means being the "right" distance away from it to get a good balance between tone and volume. I can tell from listening to your recordings that you ARE too close, to the point that you are causing mic distortion when you sing.
The best way to deal with this is to use the gain controls both on your interface AND within reaper to get a happy medium. (grin) and back off a little.
There is a HUGE thread on here packed with useful information on how to do this, started and kept alive by member Yep.
Called something like "why your recordings sound like ass"
Read that & also have a look at some of the online "how to record yourself singing" stuff on youtube. Bur do remember any advice you get on the internet is only ever worth what you paid for it!
When I only had dynamic mics I would crank up the gain and back away from the mic. It really helps the mic from sounding "boomy". Of course, then your recording space comes into play.
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If you are going to look at SM57s, why not try something like an MXL v67g? It's not your normal cheap condensor mic... sounds very nice, especially when you can usually find them (in the USA, not Brazil), for $90-$120.
Although there are dynamic mics that can do an OK job of capturing the richness of acoustic music, it is more often the case that a small diameter condensor is better suited to the job.
Hi,ronmac.
Thanks for the tips. I`m already experimenting with the space and I think the results were quite good with the singing. I think I forgot to say that in my recordings all acoustic guitar tracks were done in line, not mic.
I`m beggining to explore recording these tracks with my mic, and I liked what I heard. I guess the line approach for that job is pretty much useless, isn`t it?
Hopefully you are not trying to record the guitar and the vocal in one pass. Doesnt sound like it.
There is a HUGE thread on here packed with useful information on how to do this, started and kept alive by member Yep.
Called something like "why your recordings sound like ass"
Hi ivansc,
In fact in the voice-guitar recordings were done in 'one pass', that being do the singing and playing at the same time, and recording the guitar in LINE channel.
I`m a newbie on all of this, so I`m aware there's a lot to learn!
Thanks for pointing that thread, I`ll take a look.
When I only had dynamic mics I would crank up the gain and back away from the mic. It really helps the mic from sounding "boomy". Of course, then your recording space comes into play.
Hi partonkevin,
With my mic I found the only way was that you just told. You can record voice and acoustic guitar nicely that way.
How the room sounds is more important than the mic.
Nothing wrong with recording a live performance with one mic, either! You can always reinforce with overdubs, or even use it as a scratch track and replace the original recording. I do think, for acoustic singer/songwriter types, that it is important to get the subtle interplay of timing between instrument and voice.
I completely agree that there's no point buying a new mic yet. Try different mic distances in different spaces first. Get in the habit of clapping everywhere you go, just to listen to the high frequency reflections. Try dead spaces (like out in the countryside!) try spaces with lots of natural reverberation, and try everything in between.
I tend to record acoustic instruments in stereo with two mics. Usually a large diaphragm condenser towards the body of the instrument, and a small cap condenser towards the neck joint, and if the room is bad (as noted, space matters a lot) then I bring the mics as close as possible.
If you want a quick lesson in why this works, just strum a chord and then get your ear very close to the resonating top board and move it around. You will get a very different tone depending on where your ear is. So the goal is to capture as much of the sound as possible and mix it in to taste.
I also almost always drop a parametric cut at about 250hz in pretty much every acoustic guitar track I do. There is a whole lot of harmonic activity around there so it gets to be a little boomy, and a cut there really helps clear it up.
I want to encourage our friend to get the best recordings he can. Or at the very least, since he isn't using the mic to record the guitar, appropriately title his threads.
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
pdechery: Just occurred to me that you are also going to be picking up a fair amount of your guitar acoustically on that mic.
This unfortunately opens up a bunch of other issues, but probably not really important to address until you are getting a vocal sound you like.
One possibility would be to do what I tend to do myself. Lay down the guitar and voice in one hit and then just use either or both as a guide track.
re-record your vocal on another track with the original vocal muted, so you can pay attention to getting the best vocal sound you can without having to worry about the guitar.
To get an idea of just how much spill you are getting onto the vocal track at present, try muting the guitar track and seeing how much of it is present on the vocal track.
Your Samson mic is not a good mic and one can hear that. But good enough for song sketches, demo sketches.
If you want a good mic for a fair price and a mic that can be used for almost all instruments and if you prefer a dynamic mic
Beyerdynamic M201TG
maybe one of the best mics in the world,
I usually do not like Beyerdynamic very much, but this mic is an exception.
I own several Samson Q7, they are fine mics. Excellent on lower octave wind instruments.
There is a hype that makes them unsuitable for acoustic guitar and higher instruments with lots of harmonics, but can be utilized to bring a great sizzle to bass cab recordings for example and are excellent on some voices.
They are hypercardioid so not at all the right choice for an acoustic guitar.
But they are not bad mics whatsoever. A bad mic is only bad because it wasn't matched to the source, there are next to no commercially available full-scale microphones (i.e. not designed to be very small or make other compromises) nowadays that won't deliver fine sound quality, but they are all very different and work better on certain sources than on others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Marceaux de Champs
Sure SM 57 or Sennheiser MD 421 - MD 421 is one of the best dynamic allround mics in this price category (< 500 $)!
Completely disagree on the 57 (and it's Shure not Sure), that has even more high end hype than the Q7. Acoustic guitars and hyped dynamics just don't go together well, the pick noise, screetches, etc get unpleasently focused on and EQ can only tame it so far.
I would pick up a cheap flat condensor microphone such as the CAD M179, MXL Drum cube, MXL V63M, or Rode NT 1 A
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 22,754
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
He isn't using the mic on the guitar. Voice only.
Yeah I caught that. Don't care.
I want to encourage our friend to get the best recordings he can. Or at the very least, since he isn't using the mic to record the guitar, appropriately title his threads.
I own several Samson Q7, they are fine mics. Excellent on lower octave wind instruments.
There is a hype that makes them unsuitable for acoustic guitar and higher instruments with lots of harmonics, but can be utilized to bring a great sizzle to bass cab recordings for example and are excellent on some voices.
They are hypercardioid so not at all the right choice for an acoustic guitar.
But they are not bad mics whatsoever. A bad mic is only bad because it wasn't matched to the source, there are next to no commercially available full-scale microphones (i.e. not designed to be very small or make other compromises) nowadays that won't deliver fine sound quality, but they are all very different and work better on certain sources than on others.
Completely disagree on the 57 (and it's Shure not Sure), that has even more high end hype than the Q7. Acoustic guitars and hyped dynamics just don't go together well, the pick noise, screetches, etc get unpleasently focused on and EQ can only tame it so far.
I would pick up a cheap flat condensor microphone such as the CAD M179, MXL Drum cube, MXL V63M, or Rode NT 1 A
He complained about plastic sound, and the plastic sound is caused by the micīs plastic sound ! Although Shure 57 is not the best choice for guitar, it is also used by profs for acoustic guitar and sometimes for vocals and as far as I understand the OP he wants a dynamic mic !
We have bought just to check a Samson Q7 mic two days ago and pluggged it to Avalon V5 and Tubetech MP 2A and finally to X-Logic Alpha VHD, well, sound is plastic,
thatīs what it is - cheap mic and high end pre-amp = cheap result.
Condenser Mic for guitar AND voice there are only two brands if you want highend quality results:
1. DPA
2. Neumann
and for good results Rode, too.
Of course a good mic pre-amp would be great, too and a perfect recording room
You could also use AKG, Sennheiser or other mics to get satisfactory quality !
But I talked about highend
I see, you belong to the guitarists who want to hide pick noises, on the other side there y a plusieurs
guitarists who love this noise and would never try to delete or attenuate it. A matter of taste !
By the way, itīs "screeches", not screetches !
Last edited by Lord Marceaux de Champs; 02-14-2015 at 04:57 AM.
To the OP:
- I can't listen to the sample right now, but a little general advice on your situation
- if you want your guitar to sound natural, don't use the built-in pickup, use a mic
- dynamuc mics almost always produce a fairly low output
- condenser mics produce a fairly high output
- preamps tend to distort the signal. Better preamps distort less and sound "nicer" and more detailed. Worse preamps - just the opposite
- the extent to which a bad preamp will distort the signal is proportional to the gain. The more gain, the lesser recorded quality
- good preamps are standalone preamps. That is not to say every standalone preamp is good.
- high-end audio interfaces have "ok" preamps
- low-end audio interfaces, such as Scarlett, have bad preamps
- combining the aforementioned information, you can deduce that you need a condenser mic in order to get a better quality recording from your Scarlett. Since with condenser mic, you will need to crank the preamp much less. Or a better preamp.
- the factors that influence the outcome of a recording are these, in the order of importance(frome more to less important):
1) the quality of performance
2) correct mic placement (and correct singing-to-the-mic technique for vocals)
3) the quality of acoustical space (room)
3) the quality of the instrument or the vocal
4) microphone choice
5) preamp choice
6) correct technique for post-processing (EQ, compression, effects)
As to mic choice, if you go with another dynamic mic, compare them by sensitivity. Generally higher sensitivity in microphones does not correlate with sound quality, and some of the better dynamic mics have a very low sensitivity (Shure SM7). But in the case of a low-end preamp, higher sensitivity will translate to higher quality recording. Of course, the sound of the mic should not be neglected either. SM57, for this case, is not best choice neither for vocal nor for classical guitar. I would suggest you to go with an inexpensive large-diaphragm condenser (LDC) microphone, which is generally better suited for both uses. You will need a pop-filter to use it with vocal. Rode produce some inexpensive but fairly good LDC's. AKG are said to also have fairly-good sounding low-end mics, though I don't have enough experience with them to judge.
I've got two AKG 420 Precisions, and get really good results with them. That model has been discontinued, but I'm sure there is something else out there in that price range.
He complained about plastic sound, and the plastic sound is caused by the micīs plastic sound ! Although Shure 57 is not the best choice for guitar, it is also used by profs for acoustic guitar and sometimes for vocals and as far as I understand the OP he wants a dynamic mic !
We have bought just to check a Samson Q7 mic two days ago and pluggged it to Avalon V5 and Tubetech MP 2A and finally to X-Logic Alpha VHD, well, sound is plastic,
thatīs what it is - cheap mic and high end pre-amp = cheap result.
I suggest you return your Samson Q7 as defective model, because mine sounds very similar (in timbre) to my 57. The only difference between these mics, that I own anyway, is a tiny difference in the high end (the hype is in a different place on both mics) and of course sounds become drastically more unrealistic off-axis on the Q7 than on the 57 - which is, of course, the entire point. It's not a good mic for using along with other mics such as on a drum kit, and it's not good for close micing acoustic instruments that produce their sound from a large volume of space, but it does work great for micing it from a further distance while rejecting other things like the room reflections.
If I had to choose a dynamic mic from my arsenal to mic an acoustic guitar in say, a church, I would pick the Q7 over the 57 and place it probably 3-5 feet away at least. Pushing it, and aimed at the 12 fret but on an angle towards the body, maybe as close as 2 feet.
But I wouldn't use either mic because I have a flat response CAD M179 with a more natural sounding hypercardioid setting that I'd do the same thing with.
I think everyone should check this out btw:
The Audix om5 clearly demonstrates an excellent balance of hypercarioid pattern with natural sounding off-axis (just quieter). I would agree that the Q7 doesn't even come close. But it's not a bad mic whatsoever - one can use this off-axis sound to your advantage for example to adjust the tonality of a guitar cabinet (I already mentioned loving the Q7 on cabinets).
Listen and watch this recording and video, quite a lot of different instruments miked. "Tu verano mi invierno" starts at 9:36
************************************************** *****************
The second singer uses a Shure mic and on other tracks as lead singer,
it works very well.
************************************************** **********************
The quality of this recording is top-notch, one reason is the mics and some more reasons I can not tell all.. Superb musicians.
************************************************** *************************** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N-tsr_DU5s
************************************************** ***********************************
If you like Kanaku y El Tigre, maybe think about supporting them, skilled musicians are rare and need money
to survive !
Last edited by Lord Marceaux de Champs; 02-18-2015 at 02:39 AM.
I want to encourage our friend to get the best recordings he can. Or at the very least, since he isn't using the mic to record the guitar, appropriately title his threads.
Hi Jerome,
You're right about the wrong title (sorry about that ), but after the beginning of this thread I'm actually recording my string instruments with the mic, and I think I never will record with line again.
You're right about the wrong title (sorry about that ), but after the beginning of this thread I'm actually recording my string instruments with the mic, and I think I never will record with line again.
No worries, mate. You've done the right thing. Acoustic instruments provide a rich package of harmonics that are difficult enough to capture with multiple mics, but impossible to catch with DI.
You don't have to spend a ton of money on high end mics, particularly if you don't have a great space to record in. Any midrange consumer condenser mic will serve you well. Long term, look to get a bit of a collection of various types going, and learn the nuances of each one.
The only real education with this kind of thing is experience, so don't be afraid to experiment.
Recording acoustic with dynamic microphone, any ideas
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