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Old 08-27-2019, 09:55 AM   #1
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Default Take System Revamped!

Did some careful consideration of how to improve the current Takes system.
I think the biggest issues come from the use of Splits as active-take boundaries, for a task that Splits really are not intended for.

I present...


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EDIT - 2021-02-15
-added refinement on how to deal with overlaps, effectively eliminating the "split overlap" issue


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In short, my (still item-based) Zones proposal:

ZONES
1. Takes get Dedicated (soloable) lanes inside items. They are independently movable/sizable within their lane.
2. The active take is comped not by splits, but by something internal to an item I called Zones. Zone Markers get created by punch-ins or manually.
3. Choosing the active portion would work identically - just click on the pieces you want to make active. What would change is using Zone Markers instead of Splits to decide the boundaries for active-takes.

There's still the issue of overlaps, and having though a lot about it this is what I'd propose:

DEALING WITH OVERLAPS
1. A punch-in would create Zone Markers, and become the new active take.

Original.


First punch-in.


2. 2nd punch-in -- IF that punch-in overlapped with other zone markers, it would delete those zone markers. This solves the trillion splits/markers issue.

Overlapped Zone Markers get deleted within the confines of a new Punch In.


If say, you want to hear Take 2 in it's entirety, SOLO the lane. It will play just that lane, regardless of zones. No touching the comp, no messing around, just listen to what you wanna hear.


OK great you've decided you like Take 2. Either:

a. click the pieces like we're used to (okay)

b. DELETE some Zone Markers and click Take 2 (cleaner! better!)

c. have an action "Create Zone Markers for take under mouse cursor, delete overlapping Zone Markers, make active" (Best!). Example, if you want the entirety of T1 made active, use that action - it'll delete all the inclusive zone markers and make T1 active. Single click.


The ability to just create Zone Markers at any time gets us the best elements of swipe comping (Cubase, S1) while keeping the best parts of Reaper (punch-ins become active, just click to make active take) while FIXING the terrible overlaps/million-splits issue. Want a single word from Take 1? Create Razor Edit, have an action "Create Zone Markers from Razor Edit, delete overlapping ZM, make take under mouse cursor active". Done, swipe-comping.

TAKES STAY UNTOUCHED! AND NO SPLITS, let splits be used for splitting! Use splits INSIDE an item in one of the independent lanes to split a take without splitting all the other takes! Item stays whole.


Collapsed. Beautiful.

Last edited by ferropop; 02-15-2021 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:58 AM   #2
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...in short, instead of Splits determining the bounds for active takes, introducing a new thing called Zone Markers or Virtual Splits (whatever!) that act at the Item level rather than at the Take level. They can be added/deleted/moved at will without ever affecting the contiguity of the underlying takes.

It would be SO much cleaner, and gives us the benefits of both the current brilliant Take system (click click click, crossfade, done!) but without the obvious drawbacks of splitting/destroying our precious takes and creating these monstrosities that happen when doing overdubs/punch-ins.

I honestly can't think of any drawbacks, and because it leverages the current behaviour in almost every way I can't see it being a crazy programming overhaul either.

Thoughts!?
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Old 08-27-2019, 10:43 AM   #3
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how did you do the font for your Title ?
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Old 08-27-2019, 11:33 AM   #4
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This could actually work!

There are still some UX things which would need to be considered or thought out further but I would vote for this. It's not far distant from current implementation and that means less developing and simple back-compatibility.

Last edited by bFooz; 08-27-2019 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 08-27-2019, 11:36 AM   #5
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UX issues:

1 - how to hande creation of zone splits nicely (let's call them just "take splits" as opposed to current "item splits"?) and assigning takes to the splits.

2 - then when everything is comped and user wants to re-comp, create some new splits and remove some old ones, how would that be handled.

3 - how to audition the whole single take when the comp is done.
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Old 08-27-2019, 11:40 AM   #6
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An alternative to swipe comping could also be done:

1 - select time with mouse & select take (this could be one move)
2 - action to create take split from time selection with the active take
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Old 08-27-2019, 11:41 AM   #7
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I think there would need to be two selection states of takes: "selected take" and "sounding take"
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
how did you do the font for your Title ?
Is this what attractive females deal with daily in the workplace?

http://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:36 PM   #9
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For sure there's some things to be worked out, but definitely have been thinking about all of these.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
UX issues:

1 - how to hande creation of zone splits nicely (let's call them just "take splits" as opposed to current "item splits"?) and assigning takes to the splits.
It would work almost exactly as it currently does. If you click a take in a zone it becomes active. To create Zone Markers If you select a take there could be an action to "Create Zone Markers At Edges Of Selected Take". This could even be automatic (or a Mouse Modifier, Ctrl-Alt-Click or something), and then you just pull in the markers to make them perfect. We'd be doing this with splits anyways (moving the split location then crossfading).


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Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
2 - then when everything is comped and user wants to re-comp, create some new splits and remove some old ones, how would that be handled.
Same thing, my thinking is that the Zone Markers are easily added/deleted seeing that they aren't affecting anything underneath, just defining the active take zones. Just like Stretch Markers, you can Ctrl-Alt-Click to add one (or whatever), and Alt-Click (or whatever) to delete one. And/or there can be an action, "Clear all Zone Markers from Selected Item". All my ideas are (purposely) modeled after stuff that already exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
3 - how to audition the whole single take when the comp is done.
It would work exactly as it already does -- whatever the active takes are is what you hear. When it's all collapsed all you see are the active takes and the Zone Markers, no splits no nonsense, it's a clean Item that can be moved around as a whole entity.
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
An alternative to swipe comping could also be done:

1 - select time with mouse & select take (this could be one move)
2 - action to create take split from time selection with the active take
Totally, both of those could easily be a thing. Actions already exist for similar things, ie "Insert Region from Time Selection", "Split Items at Time Selection" etc.

All of my ideas have are analogous to something that already exists.
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Old 08-27-2019, 01:02 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
Is this what attractive females deal with daily in the workplace?

http://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi
🆃🅷🅰🆃'🆂 🆆🅸🅻🅳 !
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Old 08-27-2019, 01:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
It would work exactly as it already does -- whatever the active takes are is what you hear. When it's all collapsed all you see are the active takes and the Zone Markers, no splits no nonsense, it's a clean Item that can be moved around as a whole entity.
I think this could be implemented - audition a take without zone dependency. Kind of a "zone bypass". It would be a new feature, not just an enhanced old one.
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Old 08-27-2019, 05:58 PM   #13
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here the result should include more 2 zones on take 1 (in both extrems).
since in previous image a zone (and the 2 splits) were created automatically too.
No?
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
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here the result should include more 2 zones on take 1 (in both extrems).
Don't know. They would be basically redundant.
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Old 08-28-2019, 02:10 AM   #15
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There is also a problem how to handle recording.

- if new recorded take is longer/starts earlier than existing take
- if new take overlaps two items
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:38 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post


here the result should include more 2 zones on take 1 (in both extrems).
since in previous image a zone (and the 2 splits) were created automatically too.
No?
I'm thinking rather than it being automatic that it's done with a Mouse Modifier -- like if you Ctrl-Alt click a take it would make Zone Markers. Maybe it shouldn't be automatic.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:40 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
There is also a problem how to handle recording.

- if new recorded take is longer/starts earlier than existing take
- if new take overlaps two items
The way I see it, if there's any overlap happening it just extends the size of the item. It's just recording in lanes anyways, so if there's overlap then wherever the earliest take starts is the Beginning of that item, and wherever the furthest take ends is the End of the item.

If there's no overlap then it's its own item, just like it works currently.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:00 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post
The way I see it, if there's any overlap happening it just extends the size of the item.
And what if the newly recorded take overlaps 3 items?
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:08 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
And what if the newly recorded take overlaps 3 items?
It just adds another lane. I'm confused...more lanes keep getting added just like normal, just there's no splits. If your new take starts before the item and overlaps, the item just becomes longer.

Last edited by ferropop; 08-28-2019 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
And what if the newly recorded take overlaps 3 items?



...if you want to then make that new take active you make it active, just as it works now. Click on it in the zone to make it active, add new zones, move them, whatever you need.

Last edited by ferropop; 08-28-2019 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:48 AM   #21
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I'm confused...
I'm talking about three real separate items. Each of those items have several zones in them with varied comps.

First item is e.g. verse 1, second is chorus and the third one is verse two. They were previously recorded separately. And they overlap, because for some creative reason the final line of the verse 1 sounds at the same time as the first line of the chorus. And now the singer wants to do the whole song in one single take (how he's gonna resolve overlaps in not our business).

How would be those three existing items and their zones handled in this case?
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:54 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferropop View Post

If the take 5 was just recorded into the existing item, the zones should change to accomotade the new take so the whole new take is active at this moment. If there is an existing comp done, it will be removed.

If this will not be the case and the newly recorded take is not activated right away and existing zones are kept as they are, when user wants to audition what he just recorded, he will need to manually activate the new take in each zone separately.

None of the ways above is satisfactory.

The solution would be two selection types - one for comping into zones and one for auditioning take lanes.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:55 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
If the take 5 was just recorded into the existing item, the zones should change to accomotade the new take so the whole new take is active at this moment. If there is an existing comp done, it will be removed.

If this will not be the case and the newly recorded take is not activated right away and existing zones are kept as they are, when user wants to audition what he just recorded, he will need to activate the new take in each zone separately.

None of the ways above is satisfactory.

The solution would be two selection types - one for comping into zones and one for auditioning take lanes.
If it should not activate right away (i think the better behaviour), the ability to Solo a lane solves this, like in Cubase.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:57 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
If the take 5 was just recorded into the existing item, the zones should change to accomotade the new take so the whole new take is active at this moment. If there is an existing comp done, it will be removed.

If this will not be the case and the newly recorded take is not activated right away and existing zones are kept as they are, when user wants to audition what he just recorded, he will need to activate the new take in each zone separately.

None of the ways above is satisfactory.

The solution would be two selection types - one for comping into zones and one for auditioning take lanes.
I understand now. Yeah tricky. In the current system, if you overlap multiple items it just adds the take to whatever it's overlapping. If there's a gap it creates a new item. If there's then a new item, it again adds a take to that item.

It's not pretty, maybe there's a better way to handle it... maybe it would just fuse the items together but retain zone markers so that the comps stay intact.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:57 AM   #25
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And now I'm feeling we are getting way past the ease of use of "typical" track-based comping which at this point seems easier to design and code and use.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:35 AM   #26
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In the first examples gave the only thing which reaper does not allow is to have independent time stretch per take lane.(which would "simply" require a modifier on item edges to do so). Which would be nice but not a huge huge thing in my opinion.

Also seems to me, this request has many similarities with grouped items , or glued items behaviour like in cubase, but with an exclusive lane output. Makes sense?
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
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In the first examples gave the only thing which reaper does not allow is to have independent time stretch per take lane.(which would "simply" require a modifier on item edges to do so). Which would be nice but not a huge huge thing in my opinion.

Also seems to me, this request has many similarities with grouped items , or glued items behaviour like in cubase, but with an exclusive lane output. Makes sense?
Deeb I think the biggest issue with the current Takes implementation is that it relies on Splits, when Splits really are not meant to be used in this way. They are conveniently taken advantage of to create the current Reaper workflow (a very smart thing by the devs) but in reality it is not the purpose of Splits. What this creates is a mess, because every time there is an overlap it is Splitting every other take in the item! This is not the intention of Splits, which is to create two separate items for a very specific purpose.

You're right so much is the same, and that's the point -- all I propose is that instead of Splits determining the boundaries for active takes that it is a new thing...and that the takes are in lanes so they are independent instead of creating crazy crossfades and problems when you try to adjust one.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:10 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
And now I'm feeling we are getting way past the ease of use of "typical" track-based comping which at this point seems easier to design and code and use.
bFooz I'm simply taking the existing system and making it better. If it operates literally exactly the same as the current system but instead of Splits it uses a new Zone Markers thing to determine the active take, then we are already a billion years ahead in my opinion. The mess that splits creates is just terrible --- AND add in the fact that Reaper doesn't have Area Selection, moving and copy/pasting sections of audio that have been comped is CRAZY because you have to make sure all these little pieces copy together and don't get nudged or it'll destroy everything, and if you accidentally move a little tiny split item there's really no way to turn back.

I think it's a very reasonable proposition. And yeah of course there's things to be worked out (which you are helping with by pointing out the things you have) but they can all be overcome. Same thing happened when adding Stretch Markers -- the idea was proposed, universally liked, and then people went to town describing the what/if/but issues, and slowly it got picked through and perfected.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:31 PM   #29
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If I get it right .. seems to me this is not a take thing but more a per track grouping thing. This group can contain takes and new takes and even import media items and then an exclusive output for this group (not polyphonic/single lane).

Personally glue behaviour per track / grouped items per track would be a very welcome addition.

You both know cubase glued items per track behaviour right?

Edit: it seems complex to change the splits by anything by reaper. Reaper would have to allow merging new content in the takes in and offset the remaining of this new content to the available space of their splits or adapting this splits to a new length, so that includes full length of the included content, which maybe would cool?

Last edited by deeb; 08-28-2019 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
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If I get it right .. seems to me this is not a take thing but more a per track grouping thing. This group can contain takes and new takes and even import media items and then an exclusive output for this group (not polyphonic/single lane).

Personally glue behaviour per track / grouped items per track would be a very welcome addition.

You both know cubase glued items per track behaviour right?

Edit: it seems complex to change the splits by anything by reaper. Reaper would have to allow merging new content in the takes in and offset the remaining of this new content to the available space of their splits or adapting this splits to a new length, so that includes full length of the included content, which maybe would cool?
deeb what you're mentioning sounds cool (grouping), but I definitely am proposing it as an alternative to splits for active takes. It could be an option, just like Free Item Positioning, I don't think it would be that crazy. I just think it would improve things So much, even if it simply worked Exactly the same as it currently does but instead of Splits for takes it used a new specialized thing.
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:24 PM   #31
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Default I like the idea.

Ferro,
-I think your idea would be an improvement of the take system for sure.

-I really dislike the autosplitting and the mess it creates. It is very confusing and messy.
Your "zones" seem like a way to create and play back a comp without all the splits and mess they create. I think you could just call them "comps" and they could be named and saved like comp sets. An "overlay" if you will, that defines the section of each take that is currently active but every take stays in it's original lane and position (unless you move it). Makes total sense. It would be much less confusing to have this visual layout of your comp. I don't see how this wouldn't work as a comping system for anyone doing tracking of real instruments and vocals. I assume it would work across tracks if the items were grouped?
And for those who may like the recording in layers, a play all takes option would work for them too.

But couldn't it just not autosplit and let me split where I want later, and leave it at that?
Just a bunch of lanes that aren't split and I decide where to split and choose the active sections by clicking or using keystrokes to cycle through just like it does now? Maybe I am not thinking it through and that creates other problems? Then if I do add a take after splitting other takes, perhaps it splits it where MY splits are-on second that might not be good?

I hope your idea or something similar is implemented some day.
Thanks for your work in proposing this. If the polling function still exists on this board, you should re-post it with a poll to see if people vote for it-not sure if that is still a thing.
John

Last edited by JohnnyMusic; 09-03-2019 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 09-06-2019, 10:28 AM   #32
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Ferro,
-I think your idea would be an improvement of the take system for sure.

-I really dislike the autosplitting and the mess it creates. It is very confusing and messy.
Your "zones" seem like a way to create and play back a comp without all the splits and mess they create. I think you could just call them "comps" and they could be named and saved like comp sets. An "overlay" if you will, that defines the section of each take that is currently active but every take stays in it's original lane and position (unless you move it). Makes total sense. It would be much less confusing to have this visual layout of your comp. I don't see how this wouldn't work as a comping system for anyone doing tracking of real instruments and vocals. I assume it would work across tracks if the items were grouped?
And for those who may like the recording in layers, a play all takes option would work for them too.

But couldn't it just not autosplit and let me split where I want later, and leave it at that?
Just a bunch of lanes that aren't split and I decide where to split and choose the active sections by clicking or using keystrokes to cycle through just like it does now? Maybe I am not thinking it through and that creates other problems? Then if I do add a take after splitting other takes, perhaps it splits it where MY splits are-on second that might not be good?

I hope your idea or something similar is implemented some day.
Thanks for your work in proposing this. If the polling function still exists on this board, you should re-post it with a poll to see if people vote for it-not sure if that is still a thing.
John
Thanks for recognizing the FR Johnny. I really believe it has taken almost all things into consideration, and therefore proposes 99% in improvements and maybe 1% in quirks that need to be fleshed out.

I would love to see this be considered for V6.
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:30 AM   #33
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+1
I pray to the almighty devs for this or similar.
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Old 10-01-2019, 10:45 AM   #34
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Yes!

An option to not auto-split takes would be very very very very welcomed!

And in the case of auto-splitting, please give us an option to crossfade the splits... and not simply fade-in/out or even worse... nothing... which creates clicks.

Thanks
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Old 10-01-2019, 10:47 AM   #35
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Yep, thanks ferropop for taking the time to put this together. This feature would be very welcomed!
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Old 10-01-2019, 03:50 PM   #36
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Yes!

An option to not auto-split takes would be very very very very welcomed!
Absolutely. Autosplitting is a nightmare when punching in multiple spots. I know they come in handy in many situations, so I'm sure some sort of option that keeps past behavior would be welcome.

I like this "Zone" proposal a lot.
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Old 10-09-2019, 03:16 AM   #37
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This FR is looking a lot like Logic's comping, but better. Logic has no slip (move contents - keep item position) option which makes editing comps a nightmare.

Defo +1 for zones here
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Old 02-16-2021, 08:37 AM   #38
nikki5000
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ZONES ZONES ZONES!!!
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Old 07-04-2022, 08:04 PM   #39
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...looks like we got em
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Old 07-05-2022, 07:43 AM   #40
Coachz
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Got what ? What's a zone ?

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