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Old 07-11-2022, 11:21 AM   #41
Sexan
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Should multiple selections work?
Found some bug while playing with pre

This does not work if you make selection from left to right, but if you do it from right to left then it works fine and everything is selected
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Old 07-11-2022, 11:59 AM   #42
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Ok, since I have the script I can test things out and have fun .

So I've implemented edit cursor based approach (idea by user fuseburn in his multitrack editing feature request)

(To avoid any confusion sometimes multiple groups are selected because script cannot properly deselect previously selected items if bottom part of the item is clicked)
ENCAPSULATED + EDIT CURSOR


So it acts encapsulated but if overlap is under edit cursor its also selected

EDIT CURSOR ONLY


Only select items that overlap with edit cursor

Any thoughts about that? With this approach you can select overlaps that you want or avoid them

(Of course should be a mode)

Last edited by Sexan; 07-11-2022 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 07-11-2022, 12:36 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Sorry but I can't find that option "select one group item selects group" in the menus. I can see the action.
It's in main toolbar grouping icon, rightclick.

Last edited by nofish; 07-11-2022 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 07-11-2022, 02:31 PM   #44
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@sexan

"But my biggest problem here is that if we have crossfades (which is overlap) then everything will move together you cannot move ANY segment individually any more (if default is encapsulated + overlap (any)). Even worse if you want to delete any segment now you delete everything".

Using the 'ignore group/selection' left-drag modifier makes that sort of edit in multiple groups easy. Though it only works with single items.

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Old 07-11-2022, 03:42 PM   #45
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When you have over 100 cuts and crossfadeing is enabled by default on split, having to use that for every operation (move,delete,slip,copy,trim,adjust fade) is not good for default behavior.

Even when you do the first cut when you get 2 separate items you cant adjust just 1 side.
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Old 07-11-2022, 04:34 PM   #46
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Ah, sorry, I've been using the mod 'Alt+click'(Item: Split item under mouse, ignore grouping). Different (better) group behaviour from 'S' or time-select cut.

One of those 'been using so long, I forgot' ones.
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Old 07-12-2022, 02:34 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sexan View Post
Ok, since I have the script I can test things out and have fun .

So I've implemented edit cursor based approach (idea by user fuseburn in his multitrack editing feature request)

ENCAPSULATED + EDIT CURSOR


So it acts encapsulated but if overlap is under edit cursor its also selected

...

(Of course should be a mode)
So I tried Sexan's scripted version of this (and I'm a little ashamed to be so interested in how this feature turns out) and it is superbly dumb, predictable and natural-feeling. I guess there are users who want to select without moving the edit cursor, and this offers no advantages for them, but I really love this implementation.

In a multiple-leader scenario, I would want the clicked-on item to determine the enclosure boundary. Beyond that, it's fairly self-explanatory.
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Old 07-12-2022, 07:01 AM   #48
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A side note but important to editing large areas overall with razor edits. It would be amazing if we could get (at some point) mouse modifier options for razor edits that when copying a razor edit area, it can pool midi items and automation items if we require it.

Right now we don't seem to be able to choose if the items in the razor edit are to be pooled or not when copied.
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Old 07-12-2022, 08:40 AM   #49
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* Includes feature branch: track media/razor edit grouping
No one has really explained this feature yet.

I see the new Media/Razor column in the Track Grouping Matrix and how track media grouping moves overlapping items in tandem, really cool.

But how exactly do Razor Areas play into the feature?
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Old 07-12-2022, 08:57 AM   #50
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No one has really explained this feature yet.

I see the new Media/Razor column in the Track Grouping Matrix and how track media grouping moves overlapping items in tandem, really cool.

But how exactly do Razor Areas play into the feature?
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Old 07-12-2022, 09:21 AM   #51
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Thanks sockmonkey! So any razor selection on a (lead?) track will automatically add to the razor selection on the grouped (follower?) tracks. Cool!
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Old 07-12-2022, 10:18 AM   #52
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Fixed media lanes FR:

Add ability (e.g. in right-click menu) for each fixed media lane to have default output channels.

Some flexibility in how this feature could be implemented whether it overrides or is overridden by take channel settings: perhaps just a Boolean that defines whether fixed lane channel setting or take channel setting takes precedence should they differ.
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:15 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sockmonkey72 View Post
So I tried Sexan's scripted version of this (and I'm a little ashamed to be so interested in how this feature turns out) and it is superbly dumb, predictable and natural-feeling. I guess there are users who want to select without moving the edit cursor, and this offers no advantages for them, but I really love this implementation.

In a multiple-leader scenario, I would want the clicked-on item to determine the enclosure boundary. Beyond that, it's fairly self-explanatory.
So, I was also able to try out Sexan's scripted version and Sockmonkey also made a quick adaption so that this works based off of mouse cursor as I don't move edit cursor with selection in my daily workflow.

After trying out different modes, I have the same opinion that sockmonkey does. I really think this is the way to go. The rule I'm using is select overlapping follower items at mouse cursor + enclosed items. So, if I click on an item of the lead track, any item in the grouped tracks that overlaps at the mouse cursor will be selected. Also, any items which are fully enclosed/encapsulated within the lead item bounds are also selected.

The beauty of this is that with no changes in modes/modifiers or anything else, I can select a lead track and all tops&tails items. I can select just the tops (heads) items and select everything without the tail items by clicking on just the head. And I can select just the tail items without selecting the tops items by clicking on the tail - based on all tracks being lead+follow. It really is elegant and very simple. Here's an example of the above:



It also solves the issue of selection with splitting and moving. Since the grouping selection is more consistent, it becomes very simple. Everything that is selected splits. Everything that is selected moves. There are no outliers. I think this is a MUCH better solution than the 50 percent rule which involves too much thinking and is hard to determine. Is this item at 50 percent? Is it below 50 percent? And zooming in/out which you do constantly editing is only going to exacerbate that.

I'm voting for group selection based off of overlap follower items at mouse/edit cursor + enclosed items.
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:32 AM   #54
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I appreciate the thought people are putting into this, but there are some significant challenges with action-position based grouping. In addition to some technical implementation problems (not problems like "it's hard" but problems like "many scenarios with not well defined behavior"), there is the basic user interaction problem that if you don't know what the rules are supposed to be, the behavior is hard to understand.

I wouldn't completely rule out something action-position based in the future but I don't think this is the best out of the box behavior.
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:43 AM   #55
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I appreciate the thought people are putting into this, but there are some significant challenges with action-position based grouping. In addition to some technical implementation problems (not problems like "it's hard" but problems like "many scenarios with not well defined behavior"), there is the basic user interaction problem that if you don't know what the rules are supposed to be, the behavior is hard to understand.

I wouldn't completely rule out something action-position based in the future but I don't think this is the best out of the box behavior.
More confusing than trying to eyeball an arbitrary 50 percent?
Which is easier to explain in the user manual. Group-based edit selection is WYSIWYG or hey, if the item isn't selecting as expected just make it overlap by at least 50% ??
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Old 07-12-2022, 11:48 AM   #56
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I don't think the +dev0710 behavior will be the default either.
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Old 07-12-2022, 12:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I appreciate the thought people are putting into this, but there are some significant challenges with action-position based grouping. In addition to some technical implementation problems (not problems like "it's hard" but problems like "many scenarios with not well defined behavior"), there is the basic user interaction problem that if you don't know what the rules are supposed to be, the behavior is hard to understand.

I wouldn't completely rule out something action-position based in the future but I don't think this is the best out of the box behavior.
Thanks for the explanation. Looking forward to the next iteration.
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Old 07-12-2022, 04:12 PM   #58
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I guess some multi daw users might be able to chime in on how they behave in these situations? might be useful (might not)
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Old 07-13-2022, 04:01 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
So, I was also able to try out Sexan's scripted version and Sockmonkey also made a quick adaption so that this works based off of mouse cursor.
...
I'm voting for group selection based off of overlap follower items at mouse/edit cursor + enclosed items.
It's interesting idea to solve tails by mouse cursor placement.
But it still require zooming/ scrolling, even more aggressively to match needed zone.
And selections not always made by mouse.
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Old 07-14-2022, 12:56 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post

I appreciate the thought people are putting into this, but there are some significant challenges with action-position based grouping.
... There is the basic user interaction problem that if you don't know what the rules are supposed to be, the behavior is hard to
understand.
If I'm allowed to think about the future, it comes to my mind:
One topic (here) is:

1. Which items should be selected by razor-edit?

A subsequent topic is:

2. How can a grouping be visualized?

And then even more interesting:

3. Can a group be copied by reference (pooling)?
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Old 07-14-2022, 02:01 AM   #61
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question regarding groups visual feedback:

Tracks are in groups 1,2,3:

Group 1 Red - all tracks
Group 2 Green - tracks 3,4
Group 2 Blue - tracks 1,1

Since little ribbons or lines are very hard to see:


But we have grouping outlines (in most cases "select one selects all" is enabled) so we dont see them, would it make sense to have outline by group color (while unselected)?

Top group takes priority over coloring:

Group 1,2,3 is enabled


Group 1 disabled, Group 2,3 are enabled,


just to get little better visual feedback whats in groups since toggling groups on/off its hard to see with ribbons or lines is the group on or off without clicking on the items to see are multiple items are going to be selected.

Or any other solution just to have better visual is the group or or off. (In my case I dont see the little green ribbon event its there)

EDIT: Maybe visually this would be a little too much in a busy project, so maybe just something bit different thicker on/by the track

Last edited by Sexan; 07-14-2022 at 02:24 AM.
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