06-16-2022, 12:05 PM | #81 |
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06-16-2022, 12:12 PM | #82 | |
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But hey, just as long the "borrowers" put an improved GUI on it so it will automatically sound better ps "I think therefore I am." // René Descartes Yeah, coffee and treats time (i.e) the Exact mathematical correct calculation of what time it is *watt?*
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06-16-2022, 10:20 PM | #83 |
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AFAIU, there is no licensing problem with VST3 (other than with VST2).
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06-16-2022, 11:28 PM | #84 | |
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The situation is that both excellent commercial and freeware coders are participating in creating an open-source format, as a new standard to replace the one owned by Yamaha, and managed by Steinberg. In street team parlance, 'Whooz gots da bestest coderz?' My money is on clap. I've read that it's simple for coders to implement, so I hope that soon we'll see and use Yoshimi, the V-One Suite, Calf, and Guitarix, along with the already clapified Surge XT, Odin2, and Dexed. The convergence of clap and pipewire can make a significant impact on the number of linux musicians. Part of that will flow naturally from friendships established among coders using diverse operating systems, and sharing their discoveries as things progress. Down the road, fewer people will have reason to mock or distrust linux users, if we keep a smile, and helping hand available 24-7. Mi dos centavos
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06-16-2022, 11:32 PM | #85 |
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AFAIU, there is no licensing problem with that bear over there (other than it plans to eat my children).
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06-17-2022, 12:36 AM | #86 | |
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Call me a skeptic about CLAP. I'm sure the coding is absolutely brilliant but so is the code of LV2. It feels like companies with money throwing their weight around. Isn't that why people are rebelling against Steinberg? It's the way the world works, I guess.
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06-17-2022, 02:37 AM | #87 | |
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06-17-2022, 06:48 AM | #88 |
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I think the guys behind CLAP have more momentum going on and more "screening time" due to their platforms popularity. Coding is one thing but the marketing aspect can make the whole difference.
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06-17-2022, 07:46 AM | #89 | |
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From my perspective, LV2 has failed to attract developers and has sorta languished in a very similar way to VST3, which had a horrifically slow adoption rate (and even over a decade later, still has all sorts of issues and in some cases pure defiance from Steinberg's side regarding often requested features). And now it's probably too late for things to happen for LV2. Sure, JUCE 7 support for it might help a bit so that we see more LV2 plugins out there from bigger vendors, but somehow I doubt it. Supporting Linux is a minefield for most bigger companies, it seems. So I'm actually really curious, why is this. No major cross-platform DAW supported it before Cockos decided to (and even that took a long long while to materialize), to my knowledge. Why is that? Is it because of "L" in the name, so everyone thought it was primarily a Linux format? Maybe, although that seems petty. All of this is super curious to me. LV2 had every chance to work out, but somehow it didn't. So I'd pose a question: how come AVID didn't come and pick LV2? How come Epic didn't come and pick LV2? It's similarly open license. This is not about marketing at all either - neither AVID nor Epic were contacted by CLAP team and asking them if they're interested and want to be a part of the initial announcement - those companies decided to approach the CLAP team of their own accord! This is huge. Who can explain why this happened with CLAP and not with LV2 which was there for quite a while already? I can't, but I'm all ears/eyes.
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06-17-2022, 08:07 AM | #90 | |
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I appreciate that this isn't so much CLAP vs LV2 and more CLAP vs evil empire/VST3. However, LV2 is the one that no doubt suffers here as a result. Why continue to make LV2 when CLAP is essentially doing the same thing? What I'm pushing back against regarding coding is when people say CLAP is amazing because of liberal license, made by plugin devs etc they are conveniently forgetting that LV2 already has that to its name. I too would love to hear from Bitwig and U-He why they chose to re-invent the wheel.
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06-17-2022, 08:41 AM | #91 | |
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06-17-2022, 08:45 AM | #92 | |
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A jillion channels, and 5-10 of them are worth watching. |
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06-17-2022, 08:46 AM | #93 |
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Enough of this nonsense already While you were all fussing about plug-in formats I wrote a new plug-in, its free - enjoy
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=267896
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06-17-2022, 08:51 AM | #94 | |
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Seriously, nice one! A welcome antidote to CLAP talk aka claptrap.
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06-17-2022, 11:08 AM | #95 | |
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Have you studied the origens of clap? certainly not big companies, but Bitwig and U-he in the same town, know the originators, and have employed one of them quite successfully, and are free to invest their time and expertise to help things along, and they do that because it will SAVE them time at the coding screen, and time is money. Not thrown, but accurately invested. Yamsteinaha should be making great products, not great restrictions on competitors products. I'm glad you've never been mocked or distrusted. Not knowing how long and how active you've been in other forums, things are much better today 'out in public', than they were two years ago. But even now, if you go to giant windows or mac uber-alles musician forums, and start a topic about how great linux is for audio/video, you'll get a lot of opposing viewpoints. With varying amounts of civility. And sometimes, they are...wait for it... "right". Cheers
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06-17-2022, 11:15 AM | #96 | |
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06-17-2022, 11:18 AM | #97 |
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OK so that explains it then. If they didn't care if that happened or not, that's why it didn't happen. Cool.
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06-17-2022, 11:52 AM | #98 | |
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1. saving and loading presets is cumbersome 2. the pool of great quality lv2 plugins is tiny 3. The pool of great looking lv2 plugins is tiny 4. The pool of musicians able to exploit the possibilities is tiny 5. The number of pro sound designers for those few excellent lv2-only plugins...probably around 0 There may be a thousand lv2-only plugins, but we find they are often built by the coder for the coder, and shared after the fact. That's fine, but commercial quality gui's and ease of use are not always the highest need for such personal projects. Again, a lot of these negatives don't apply to cross-platform plugins, like Dexed, Odin2, and Surge. Not being a coder, I trust coders that have proven their integrity and skill, and clap will succeed based on those two characteristics. A great synth I use, that I'd love to see in clap format is Yoshimi, but that inherited it's preset handling from zynaddsubfx. I also hope to see (hear!) Guitarix in clap format, as some great ampsim examples exist in somewhat veiled locations. But it's preset selection is severely lacking in a field where 'tone snobs' often rule the roost.
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06-17-2022, 02:53 PM | #99 | |
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Yeah, the ridicule is still out there. And, I would bet those who have never tried it are the biggest loudmouths in that respect. |
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06-17-2022, 03:17 PM | #100 |
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06-17-2022, 03:34 PM | #101 |
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Did I have to put an emoji so that it reads as being tongue-in-cheek?
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06-17-2022, 04:42 PM | #102 |
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We linux musicians finally get an open-source plugin format with great industry support, and it's a handful of linux supremacists who object and/or project failure? Even the perfect emoji won't cut through the cult like adherence to ladspa (lv1) and lv2 which haven't exactly set the music studios on fire, be they bedroom or board-room.
Clap provides a minimalist cost-free platform, quite easily extensible based on daw and plugin developer needs, without Yamastein's ever-escalating legal trickery, that as one dev puts it, "The "standard" that thousands of companies rely on is in a state of legal flux, without any reliable communication in respect to whatever it's going to be, or when." Clap will end this, with a short release on the adsr
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06-17-2022, 04:47 PM | #103 | |
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06-17-2022, 05:20 PM | #104 |
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We've got more in common, than not. Using all those formats has freed you from the cult! I'm also one of the supremacists, but I've seen the flaws in that position since the days of Caldera. Decisions and attitudes that have helped isolate linux based musicians are hard to reverse.
Clap is a golden opportunity to get out on the mainstream dance floor, and also magnify your own fine efforts to make linux a more viable option. If this were a football game, linux would trail 21 to 3 at halftime, but clap offers the hope of starting the second half with a touchdown, that benefits the teams, coaches, players, and even hard working fangirls in cool T-shirts One dev considered linux sales, said along the lines of 'we counted sales by the dozens, not the thousands'. That's the larger 'ouch' in our 'supreme' little corner of the market Cheers
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06-17-2022, 05:34 PM | #105 | |
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The Cake's drum-replacer and reverb plugins are pretty nice. Cheers
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06-17-2022, 05:53 PM | #106 | |
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"I tried it for ten minutes, and I can tell you it sucks!!!". Like you could evaluate a program as deep as REAPER in ten minutes. I remember seeing stuff like that when it was the CakeGibsonRolandwalk Sonar forum and I was moving toward REAPER. |
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06-17-2022, 05:58 PM | #107 |
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So here's last nights first success at loading a clap plugin, in a clap-aware daw, Bitwig 4.3 beta 6 with U-he Hive 13207. I love the preset that is loaded, a user contribution by Julian Ray, and when I heard and played it, decided Hive was a no brainer purchase.
(Just below the preset title, and to the right, in tiny light gray text, you'll squint to see the plugin version label is clap). The placement of the version info varies among the U-he plugins, based on available gui space)
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06-17-2022, 06:32 PM | #108 |
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06-17-2022, 09:17 PM | #109 |
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Here is the clapified Surge, with a fun e-piano sound from Claes, who open-sourced his Surge plugin, which quickly fell into excellent hands!
Here's hoping that nearby daw makers will have a clapified beta for us to test in the coming days!
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06-17-2022, 09:32 PM | #110 | |
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"Polyphonic Modulation" is a feature I've seen touted for CLAP. Does it have that? |
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06-17-2022, 10:12 PM | #111 |
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What do you mean by " open-source format" ?
An API definition needs to be "open-sourc" by definition. AFAIU, there is a supported VST3 API definition for Linux (which does not have explicit "Polyphonic Modulation" but does not seem to prevent MPE). BTW.: I don't believe that it would be an easy and obvious task to provide "Polyphonic Modulation" in Reaper. -Michael Last edited by mschnell; 06-17-2022 at 10:19 PM. |
06-18-2022, 01:36 AM | #112 |
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Do you have so little faith in our fearless devs?
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06-18-2022, 01:40 AM | #113 | |
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CLAP will not magically increase sales of Linux plugins or make Linux users' lives better/easier. It may give Bitwig, U-He etc a boost in Windows plugin sales though ("but it's CLAP...so it looks and sounds better"). Success!
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06-18-2022, 01:46 AM | #114 |
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So, hypothetically, if I did want to port a plug-in to CLAP would that mean I had to buy Bitwig just to test it?
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06-18-2022, 02:08 AM | #115 |
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Well no, there's MultitrackStudio as well which can be used too. There's also an example host which you can use to test if things load and so on.
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...53581#p8453581
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06-18-2022, 02:16 AM | #116 |
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You can also wait for the release of Bitwig 4.3 and use the demo without limitation except saving.
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06-18-2022, 10:20 AM | #117 |
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Let's just see what is what, i don't get off on ruining release-parties.
If CLAP is a baby then i'm sure it goes, ahhhHH humans critics!! ahhhHH let me back in!! "Too much?" oki sowwy Ps, does not at least CLAP "promise" that This will be the last time for devs/programmers to learn/port/adapt new stuff? with respect for how much they payed for their education? Yeah, Bitwig is on beta 7, surely it is around the corner for curious humans (with or without feelings) new video (sonic talk special - with devs) https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....39#post2570239
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06-18-2022, 11:08 AM | #118 | |
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So instead of taking time to figure it out, he made CLAP. So it really is CLAP vs both LV2 and VST3. I wonder what he was struggling to understand and whether through the process of coding CLAP it is now transparent to him? The three people being interviewed seem like decent people.
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06-18-2022, 11:24 AM | #119 | |
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If CLAP is so open, what say that LV2 or any other format can not use code from CLAP if they see something good if they please? But hey, i'm just a civilian enjoying "progress", no programmer, SO wish i was "A new standard", better be good, yep
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06-18-2022, 11:25 AM | #120 | |
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Also, I can see why synth users are excited by the polyphonic modulation:
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