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Old 06-16-2022, 12:05 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
(GRIN) But I have a life besides Reaper!

Thanks for refreshing my 78 year-old memory, though.
You're welcome...and I was just being ironic - hence the smiley (certainly no offense meant).
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Old 06-16-2022, 12:12 PM   #82
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Well that's quite a conceptual leap... That's what licenses are generally for (or to prevent). I wasn't thinking of it in terms of doing something "just because you can" more about having the ability to achieve something with whatever you have available.

The original phrase is a joke at the expense of those who perhaps tell others how to do things, rather than (maybe through lack of ability) doing it themselves. I'm done with over-analysing this now


But hey, just as long the "borrowers" put an improved GUI on it so it will automatically sound better
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Old 06-16-2022, 10:20 PM   #83
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AFAIU, there is no licensing problem with VST3 (other than with VST2).
-Michael
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:28 PM   #84
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So far, I'm getting the following: CLAP is good but existing LV2 is also good. But...CLAP.

No good logic as yet as to why we are not sticking with LV2 and improving it as an open source audio community.
'We', as sometimes users of lv2 plugins, are a miniscule minority of the plugin user totality, whether freeware, or those buying commercial plugins. Coders, whether working commercially, or on freeware projects, all need paychecks. All need more efficiency to maximise their next 24 hours.

The situation is that both excellent commercial and freeware coders are participating in creating an open-source format, as a new standard to replace the one owned by Yamaha, and managed by Steinberg.

In street team parlance, 'Whooz gots da bestest coderz?' My money is on clap.
I've read that it's simple for coders to implement, so I hope that soon we'll see and use Yoshimi, the V-One Suite, Calf, and Guitarix, along with the already clapified Surge XT, Odin2, and Dexed.

The convergence of clap and pipewire can make a significant impact on the number of linux musicians. Part of that will flow naturally from friendships established among coders using diverse operating systems, and sharing their discoveries as things progress. Down the road, fewer people will have reason to mock or distrust linux users, if we keep a smile, and helping hand available 24-7.
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Old 06-16-2022, 11:32 PM   #85
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AFAIU, there is no licensing problem with VST3 (other than with VST2).
-Michael
AFAIU, there is no licensing problem with that bear over there (other than it plans to eat my children).
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Old 06-17-2022, 12:36 AM   #86
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Down the road, fewer people will have reason to mock or distrust linux users, if we keep a smile, and helping hand available 24-7.
Mi dos centavos
I don't think I've ever been mocked or distrusted for being a Linux user If anything it's the opposite.

Call me a skeptic about CLAP. I'm sure the coding is absolutely brilliant but so is the code of LV2. It feels like companies with money throwing their weight around. Isn't that why people are rebelling against Steinberg? It's the way the world works, I guess.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:37 AM   #87
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I don't think I've ever been mocked or distrusted for being a Linux user If anything it's the opposite.

Call me a skeptic about CLAP. I'm sure the coding is absolutely brilliant but so is the code of LV2. It feels like companies with money throwing their weight around. Isn't that why people are rebelling against Steinberg? It's the way the world works, I guess.
It's not about CLAP Vs LV2, more CLAP vs VST. The success will be measured by how well it's taken up on Windows. There is already an open source standard on Linux with hundreds of plugins that one company can't pull the rug from under. It's just users of the backwards Microsoft OS need to catch up.
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Old 06-17-2022, 06:48 AM   #88
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I think the guys behind CLAP have more momentum going on and more "screening time" due to their platforms popularity. Coding is one thing but the marketing aspect can make the whole difference.
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Old 06-17-2022, 07:46 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by BethHarmon View Post
Call me a skeptic about CLAP. I'm sure the coding is absolutely brilliant but so is the code of LV2.
It's not about code quality, it's about how simple it is to use. LV2 has had quite a few headscratchers, really, from what evidence could be found online.

From my perspective, LV2 has failed to attract developers and has sorta languished in a very similar way to VST3, which had a horrifically slow adoption rate (and even over a decade later, still has all sorts of issues and in some cases pure defiance from Steinberg's side regarding often requested features). And now it's probably too late for things to happen for LV2. Sure, JUCE 7 support for it might help a bit so that we see more LV2 plugins out there from bigger vendors, but somehow I doubt it. Supporting Linux is a minefield for most bigger companies, it seems.

So I'm actually really curious, why is this. No major cross-platform DAW supported it before Cockos decided to (and even that took a long long while to materialize), to my knowledge. Why is that? Is it because of "L" in the name, so everyone thought it was primarily a Linux format? Maybe, although that seems petty.

All of this is super curious to me. LV2 had every chance to work out, but somehow it didn't. So I'd pose a question: how come AVID didn't come and pick LV2? How come Epic didn't come and pick LV2? It's similarly open license. This is not about marketing at all either - neither AVID nor Epic were contacted by CLAP team and asking them if they're interested and want to be a part of the initial announcement - those companies decided to approach the CLAP team of their own accord! This is huge. Who can explain why this happened with CLAP and not with LV2 which was there for quite a while already? I can't, but I'm all ears/eyes.
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:07 AM   #90
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Who can explain why this happened with CLAP and not with LV2 which was there for quite a while already? I can't, but I'm all ears/eyes.
As I already said, I believe it is because of company "weight" and re-inventing the wheel in order to introduce the next "shiny" thing. With a reasonable logo, an audio-related acronym, a well-crafted video and the names Bitwig and U-He behind it, it's bound to attract some attention. So actually, I do believe it is mainly marketing.

I appreciate that this isn't so much CLAP vs LV2 and more CLAP vs evil empire/VST3. However, LV2 is the one that no doubt suffers here as a result. Why continue to make LV2 when CLAP is essentially doing the same thing?

What I'm pushing back against regarding coding is when people say CLAP is amazing because of liberal license, made by plugin devs etc they are conveniently forgetting that LV2 already has that to its name. I too would love to hear from Bitwig and U-He why they chose to re-invent the wheel.
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:41 AM   #91
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It's not about code quality, it's about how simple it is to use. LV2 has had quite a few headscratchers, really, from what evidence could be found online.

From my perspective, LV2 has failed to attract developers and has sorta languished in a very similar way to VST3, which had a horrifically slow adoption rate (and even over a decade later, still has all sorts of issues and in some cases pure defiance from Steinberg's side regarding often requested features). And now it's probably too late for things to happen for LV2. Sure, JUCE 7 support for it might help a bit so that we see more LV2 plugins out there from bigger vendors, but somehow I doubt it. Supporting Linux is a minefield for most bigger companies, it seems.

So I'm actually really curious, why is this. No major cross-platform DAW supported it before Cockos decided to (and even that took a long long while to materialize), to my knowledge. Why is that? Is it because of "L" in the name, so everyone thought it was primarily a Linux format? Maybe, although that seems petty.

All of this is super curious to me. LV2 had every chance to work out, but somehow it didn't. So I'd pose a question: how come AVID didn't come and pick LV2? How come Epic didn't come and pick LV2? It's similarly open license. This is not about marketing at all either - neither AVID nor Epic were contacted by CLAP team and asking them if they're interested and want to be a part of the initial announcement - those companies decided to approach the CLAP team of their own accord! This is huge. Who can explain why this happened with CLAP and not with LV2 which was there for quite a while already? I can't, but I'm all ears/eyes.
here's a list of 1200+ lv2 plugins https://gist.github.com/mxmilkiib/86...8147d97f6ea0c7 Defining something project as "not working out" because it wasn't used by a "big company" is just meh. For a start it assumes the people who made LV2 actually care whether that happens or not.
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:45 AM   #92
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Wow, that's like cable teevee!!!

A jillion channels, and 5-10 of them are worth watching.
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:46 AM   #93
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Enough of this nonsense already While you were all fussing about plug-in formats I wrote a new plug-in, its free - enjoy

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=267896
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Old 06-17-2022, 08:51 AM   #94
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Enough of this nonsense already While you were all fussing about plug-in formats I wrote a new plug-in, its free - enjoy

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=267896
But it's not CLAP (or LV2)

Seriously, nice one! A welcome antidote to CLAP talk aka claptrap.
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Old 06-17-2022, 11:08 AM   #95
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I don't think I've ever been mocked or distrusted for being a Linux user If anything it's the opposite.

Call me a skeptic about CLAP. I'm sure the coding is absolutely brilliant but so is the code of LV2. It feels like companies with money throwing their weight around. Isn't that why people are rebelling against Steinberg? It's the way the world works, I guess.
If lv2 was brilliant, it would have been picked up and used by the brilliant plugin producers. Those same producers were stuck using vst2, and have oft pointed out the pains of coding for that format, so neither is brilliant, both offer their own PITA's to coders, and vst3 was not exactly lightning striking gold

Have you studied the origens of clap? certainly not big companies, but Bitwig and U-he in the same town, know the originators, and have employed one of them quite successfully, and are free to invest their time and expertise to help things along, and they do that because it will SAVE them time at the coding screen, and time is money. Not thrown, but accurately invested.

Yamsteinaha should be making great products, not great restrictions on competitors products.

I'm glad you've never been mocked or distrusted. Not knowing how long and how active you've been in other forums, things are much better today 'out in public', than they were two years ago. But even now, if you go to giant windows or mac uber-alles musician forums, and start a topic about how great linux is for audio/video, you'll get a lot of opposing viewpoints. With varying amounts of civility. And sometimes, they are...wait for it...

"right".

Cheers
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Old 06-17-2022, 11:15 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by BethHarmon View Post
I too would love to hear from Bitwig and U-He why they chose to re-invent the wheel.
So you can ask abique directly why he started it back in 2014, before he was working at Bitwig, and way before u-he had any interest in CLAP. He's on this forums too. Original thread from back in the day: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=152746

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Old 06-17-2022, 11:18 AM   #97
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For a start it assumes the people who made LV2 actually care whether that happens or not.
OK so that explains it then. If they didn't care if that happened or not, that's why it didn't happen. Cool.
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Old 06-17-2022, 11:52 AM   #98
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Who can explain why this happened with CLAP and not with LV2 which was there for quite a while already? I can't, but I'm all ears/eyes.
It simply comes down to the state of presets in 'ladspa version 2' only plugins, those that don't offer cross-platform vst counterparts.

1. saving and loading presets is cumbersome
2. the pool of great quality lv2 plugins is tiny
3. The pool of great looking lv2 plugins is tiny
4. The pool of musicians able to exploit the possibilities is tiny
5. The number of pro sound designers for those few excellent lv2-only plugins...probably around 0

There may be a thousand lv2-only plugins, but we find they are often built by the coder for the coder, and shared after the fact. That's fine, but commercial quality gui's and ease of use are not always the highest need for such personal projects.

Again, a lot of these negatives don't apply to cross-platform plugins,
like Dexed, Odin2, and Surge.

Not being a coder, I trust coders that have proven their integrity and skill, and clap will succeed based on those two characteristics.

A great synth I use, that I'd love to see in clap format is Yoshimi, but that
inherited it's preset handling from zynaddsubfx. I also hope to see (hear!)
Guitarix in clap format, as some great ampsim examples exist in somewhat veiled locations. But it's preset selection is severely lacking in a field where 'tone snobs' often rule the roost.
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Old 06-17-2022, 02:53 PM   #99
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I'm glad you've never been mocked or distrusted. Not knowing how long and how active you've been in other forums, things are much better today 'out in public', than they were two years ago. But even now, if you go to giant windows or mac uber-alles musician forums, and start a topic about how great linux is for audio/video, you'll get a lot of opposing viewpoints. With varying amounts of civility. And sometimes, they are...wait for it...

"right".

Cheers
On the Cakewalk By Bandlab forum, one thread was titled "The Delusional World Of Linux."

Yeah, the ridicule is still out there. And, I would bet those who have never tried it are the biggest loudmouths in that respect.
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Old 06-17-2022, 03:17 PM   #100
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OK so that explains it then. If they didn't care if that happened or not, that's why it didn't happen. Cool.
It's almost like you were challenged to write the stupidest take of what I said.
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Old 06-17-2022, 03:34 PM   #101
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Did I have to put an emoji so that it reads as being tongue-in-cheek?
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Old 06-17-2022, 04:42 PM   #102
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We linux musicians finally get an open-source plugin format with great industry support, and it's a handful of linux supremacists who object and/or project failure? Even the perfect emoji won't cut through the cult like adherence to ladspa (lv1) and lv2 which haven't exactly set the music studios on fire, be they bedroom or board-room.

Clap provides a minimalist cost-free platform, quite easily extensible based on daw and plugin developer needs, without Yamastein's ever-escalating legal
trickery, that as one dev puts it,

"The "standard" that thousands of companies rely on is in a state of legal flux, without any reliable communication in respect to whatever it's going to be, or when."

Clap will end this, with a short release on the adsr
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Old 06-17-2022, 04:47 PM   #103
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We linux musicians finally get an open-source plugin format with great industry support, and it's a handful linux supremacists who object and/or project failure? Even the perfect emoji won't cut through the cult like adherence to ladspa (lv1) and lv2 which haven't exactly set the music studios on fire, be they bedroom or board-room.
Ouch. I'll assume I'm being lumped in as one of the "supremacists" and members of the "cult". Never been called that before FYI, I use ladspa, LV2, yabridged vst2 and vst3 plugins as well as a healthy dose of jsfx and built-in Reaplugins. Until recently I was running Win11 on another partition. I'd hardly call that cult-like behavior and I'm not sure why I'm even justifying myself What's a forum without some respectful back-and-forth about the issues at hand? Forgive me for my skeptical outlook. Would you rather I fall into line and put on my fangirl tee?
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Old 06-17-2022, 05:20 PM   #104
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We've got more in common, than not. Using all those formats has freed you from the cult! I'm also one of the supremacists, but I've seen the flaws in that position since the days of Caldera. Decisions and attitudes that have helped isolate linux based musicians are hard to reverse.
Clap is a golden opportunity to get out on the mainstream dance floor, and also magnify your own fine efforts to make linux a more viable option.
If this were a football game, linux would trail 21 to 3 at halftime, but clap offers the hope of starting the second half with a touchdown, that benefits the teams, coaches, players, and even hard working fangirls in cool T-shirts

One dev considered linux sales, said along the lines of 'we counted sales by the dozens, not the thousands'. That's the larger 'ouch' in our 'supreme' little corner of the market

Cheers
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Old 06-17-2022, 05:34 PM   #105
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On the Cakewalk By Bandlab forum, one thread was titled "The Delusional World Of Linux."

Yeah, the ridicule is still out there. And, I would bet those who have never tried it are the biggest loudmouths in that respect.
I've posted few examples of Bandlab working in linux, there was an odd vertical line in the screen on the earlier versions. Based on other plugins working better, I bet that Bandlab will work good enough in wine-staging 7.9 and later, to be a cozy entry point to linux, for a few Cakewalk diehards.
The Cake's drum-replacer and reverb plugins are pretty nice.
Cheers
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Old 06-17-2022, 05:53 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by michael diemer View Post
On the Cakewalk By Bandlab forum, one thread was titled "The Delusional World Of Linux."

Yeah, the ridicule is still out there. And, I would bet those who have never tried it are the biggest loudmouths in that respect.
Hehe, they would be saying the same thing about REAPER too.

"I tried it for ten minutes, and I can tell you it sucks!!!".

Like you could evaluate a program as deep as REAPER in ten minutes. I remember seeing stuff like that when it was the CakeGibsonRolandwalk Sonar forum and I was moving toward REAPER.
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Old 06-17-2022, 05:58 PM   #107
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So here's last nights first success at loading a clap plugin, in a clap-aware daw, Bitwig 4.3 beta 6 with U-he Hive 13207. I love the preset that is loaded, a user contribution by Julian Ray, and when I heard and played it, decided Hive was a no brainer purchase.



(Just below the preset title, and to the right, in tiny light gray text,
you'll squint to see the plugin version label is clap). The placement of the
version info varies among the U-he plugins, based on available gui space)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hive-claps33.jpg (129.4 KB, 487 views)
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Old 06-17-2022, 06:32 PM   #108
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A recent video about clap:

https://youtu.be/ANJkeeyBv18
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Old 06-17-2022, 09:17 PM   #109
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Here is the clapified Surge, with a fun e-piano sound from Claes, who open-sourced his Surge plugin, which quickly fell into excellent hands!




Here's hoping that nearby daw makers will have a clapified beta for us to test in the coming days!
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File Type: jpg Surge-claps22.jpg (149.0 KB, 472 views)
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Old 06-17-2022, 09:32 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn View Post
So here's last nights first success at loading a clap plugin, in a clap-aware daw, Bitwig 4.3 beta 6 with U-he Hive 13207. I love the preset that is loaded, a user contribution by Julian Ray, and when I heard and played it, decided Hive was a no brainer purchase.

(Just below the preset title, and to the right, in tiny light gray text,
you'll squint to see the plugin version label is clap). The placement of the
version info varies among the U-he plugins, based on available gui space)
While this is running on a new protocol, is it really any different than the native linux vsti version, or is it just running on a different protocol?

"Polyphonic Modulation" is a feature I've seen touted for CLAP.

Does it have that?
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Old 06-17-2022, 10:12 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn View Post
We linux musicians finally get an open-source plugin format
What do you mean by " open-source format" ?

An API definition needs to be "open-sourc" by definition.

AFAIU, there is a supported VST3 API definition for Linux (which does not have explicit "Polyphonic Modulation" but does not seem to prevent MPE).

BTW.: I don't believe that it would be an easy and obvious task to provide "Polyphonic Modulation" in Reaper.

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Last edited by mschnell; 06-17-2022 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 06-18-2022, 01:36 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
BTW.: I don't believe that it would be an easy and obvious task to provide "Polyphonic Modulation" in Reaper.
Do you have so little faith in our fearless devs?
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Old 06-18-2022, 01:40 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn View Post
We've got more in common, than not. Using all those formats has freed you from the cult! I'm also one of the supremacists, but I've seen the flaws in that position since the days of Caldera. Decisions and attitudes that have helped isolate linux based musicians are hard to reverse.
Clap is a golden opportunity to get out on the mainstream dance floor, and also magnify your own fine efforts to make linux a more viable option.
If this were a football game, linux would trail 21 to 3 at halftime, but clap offers the hope of starting the second half with a touchdown, that benefits the teams, coaches, players, and even hard working fangirls in cool T-shirts

One dev considered linux sales, said along the lines of 'we counted sales by the dozens, not the thousands'. That's the larger 'ouch' in our 'supreme' little corner of the market

Cheers
But...but....I was never in a cult. And, I don't dance Neither do I cheer (certainly not involving clapping) from the sidelines in a branded t-shirt. If you must think of me in some role, please think of me more as the owner of the franchise

CLAP will not magically increase sales of Linux plugins or make Linux users' lives better/easier. It may give Bitwig, U-He etc a boost in Windows plugin sales though ("but it's CLAP...so it looks and sounds better"). Success!
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Old 06-18-2022, 01:46 AM   #114
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So, hypothetically, if I did want to port a plug-in to CLAP would that mean I had to buy Bitwig just to test it?
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Old 06-18-2022, 02:08 AM   #115
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Well no, there's MultitrackStudio as well which can be used too. There's also an example host which you can use to test if things load and so on.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...53581#p8453581
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Old 06-18-2022, 02:16 AM   #116
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You can also wait for the release of Bitwig 4.3 and use the demo without limitation except saving.
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Old 06-18-2022, 10:20 AM   #117
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Let's just see what is what, i don't get off on ruining release-parties.
If CLAP is a baby then i'm sure it goes, ahhhHH humans critics!! ahhhHH let me back in!!

"Too much?" oki sowwy

Ps, does not at least CLAP "promise" that This will be the last time for devs/programmers to learn/port/adapt new stuff? with respect for how much they payed for their education?

Yeah, Bitwig is on beta 7, surely it is around the corner for curious humans (with or without feelings)

new video (sonic talk special - with devs) https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....39#post2570239
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Old 06-18-2022, 11:08 AM   #118
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Quote:
new video (sonic talk special - with devs) https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....39#post2570239
Alexandre Bique: "It was difficult for me to understand how LV2 was working".

So instead of taking time to figure it out, he made CLAP. So it really is CLAP vs both LV2 and VST3. I wonder what he was struggling to understand and whether through the process of coding CLAP it is now transparent to him?

The three people being interviewed seem like decent people.
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Old 06-18-2022, 11:24 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BethHarmon View Post
Alexandre Bique: "It was difficult for me to understand how LV2 was working".
Wow you are fast, the video is 40:22
If CLAP is so open, what say that LV2 or any other format can not use code from CLAP if they see something good if they please?
But hey, i'm just a civilian enjoying "progress", no programmer, SO wish i was
"A new standard", better be good, yep
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Old 06-18-2022, 11:25 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmajjL View Post
Wow you are fast, the video is 40:22
If CLAP is so open, what say that LV2 or any other format can not use code from CLAP if they see something good if they please?
But hey, i'm just a civilian enjoying "progress", no programmer, SO wish i was
As is often the case, I come across these resources before they are posted on the REAPER forums

Also, I can see why synth users are excited by the polyphonic modulation:

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