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Old 08-27-2020, 08:46 PM   #41
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Looks like about 6 nodes difference.
For that one test, yes. Try that same test multiple times. I bet that number will be quite variable. With a larger buffer for the audio device, it enters into the realm of "it might be a concern". With a small buffer it's probably fine though. Being out as much as a couple ms isn't a big deal.

I appreciate learning about this anyway, and that it's not "a Linux thing" so much as "a USB thing".
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Old 08-27-2020, 09:41 PM   #42
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For that one test, yes. Try that same test multiple times. I bet that number will be quite variable. With a larger buffer for the audio device, it enters into the realm of "it might be a concern". With a small buffer it's probably fine though. Being out as much as a couple ms isn't a big deal.

I appreciate learning about this anyway, and that it's not "a Linux thing" so much as "a USB thing".
From what Jack said, it's different every time REAPER connects to the audio device, so if I repeated the test it would likely be different, but hopefully similar. I just went with the first test to show me what he was referring to.
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Old 08-28-2020, 06:09 AM   #43
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For that one test, yes. Try that same test multiple times. I bet that number will be quite variable. With a larger buffer for the audio device, it enters into the realm of "it might be a concern". With a small buffer it's probably fine though. Being out as much as a couple ms isn't a big deal.

I appreciate learning about this anyway, and that it's not "a Linux thing" so much as "a USB thing".
Yes, that was my experience. Still the last tests I did weren't all that bad, maybe kernel or alsa fixed something. The best would be if alsa could return the actual latency, instead of just buffersize/period on USB, but don't know if that's possible..

I think it happens on windows too if you use a generic USB driver, while some sound cards apparently have a driver that reports the actual latency so that reaper is aware of it and can properly compensate.
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Old 08-28-2020, 06:18 AM   #44
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From what Jack said, it's different every time REAPER connects to the audio device, so if I repeated the test it would likely be different, but hopefully similar. I just went with the first test to show me what he was referring to.
If you look at my latest test it wasn't as bad as I remembered. Still to me personally it's annoying

I'd like something like that to always be the same, and for the over dubbed material to align perfectly down to the sample. Still it's not a deal breaker and most people won't even notice it.
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Old 08-28-2020, 06:51 AM   #45
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If you look at my latest test it wasn't as bad as I remembered. Still to me personally it's annoying

I'd like something like that to always be the same, and for the over dubbed material to align perfectly down to the sample. Still it's not a deal breaker and most people won't even notice it.
I do time align my drums by hand, but that's to address phase issues introduced by the speed of sound. I would hand align the two tracks I posted in my last test if they were say the snare or kick and the difference being an overhead that's 3 feet from the drum vs. a mic that's 1/4" from it.

I didn't keep or even playback my metronome test, but since the peaks and valleys were inverse on that last test, I'd bet that it would have sounded real phased, and that's exactly the kind of differences for kick and snare that I fix by hand with my mic'd drums.

It might be interesting if a song had a metronome count in that got recorded at the start of each track like I did in my tests. Then you could zoom the four click count in on each of the tracks, align that, and playback from that point would be dead on the money sample wise, unless there is some additional drift variation once REAPER has locked on to the USB sound device.
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Old 08-28-2020, 09:40 AM   #46
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...playback from that point would be dead on the money sample wise, unless there is some additional drift variation once REAPER has locked on to the USB sound device.
I don't see how that could happen without xruns being reported in Reaper. So even if that problem were possible, you would know about it.
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Old 08-28-2020, 02:55 PM   #47
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Yeah, I also align the phase on multiple mic recordings. But this won't affect the alignment between the mics on a single recording. Unrelated, but using an ADAT converter will probably result in slightly more latency on the ADAT tracks, due to the extra buffering in the ADAT and soundcard.

This is more along the lines that the guitarist will hear the drums slightly later than reaper means for it to happen, and what he plays will again be slightly delayed once recorded. Or the inverse, everything will be early instead of late.

And no, I don't see there being any way that there could be additional drift.
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Old 08-28-2020, 03:34 PM   #48
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Yeah, I also align the phase on multiple mic recordings. But this won't affect the alignment between the mics on a single recording. Unrelated, but using an ADAT converter will probably result in slightly more latency on the ADAT tracks, due to the extra buffering in the ADAT and soundcard.

This is more along the lines that the guitarist will hear the drums slightly later than reaper means for it to happen, and what he plays will again be slightly delayed once recorded. Or the inverse, everything will be early instead of late.

And no, I don't see there being any way that there could be additional drift.
So where in REAPER would you enter an offset value? I might try plugging in the 196 samples that the loopback cable test came back with, and see if overdubbing feels or sounds any different.
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Old 08-28-2020, 06:37 PM   #49
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Preferences -> Audio -> Recording -> (bottom of page) manual offsets.

That's explained in Jon's video here. He just enters the difference into the "output" latency box (not dividing it in two and putting it in both input and output boxes).
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Old 08-29-2020, 07:31 AM   #50
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Preferences -> Audio -> Recording -> (bottom of page) manual offsets.

That's explained in Jon's video here. He just enters the difference into the "output" latency box (not dividing it in two and putting it in both input and output boxes).
Cool, thanks James. I put 200 in each box (close enough to 196 for rock-n-roll) and will see what effect it has over the next few days.
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Old 08-29-2020, 05:28 PM   #51
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I played with getting my PC3200 DDR4 to overclock and run at 3200Mhz, but it was a no go. I updated the bios and still no go, so I clicked it down to the next slower speed of 3133Mhz and it booted.
Got the latest updated bios from a few days ago and now it boots fine with the RAM running 3200Mhz. Only had to select it on a dropdown menu for DOCP. No hand setting of any values.

Edit: I turned Core Boost back on, and of course my CPU fan instantly started speeding up and slowing down with an annoying whine, so I ran the Asus Qfan analysis which increased the RPMs on the big and quiet 120mm front and rear fans in my case and it slowed the CPU fan down to silent even with REAPER playing a project in the background as I type this in. Core temperature only rose to 42C while that was happening.

Loading up the system running FlightGear across two 1080p monitors with every rendering option turned up to their maximums got me up to 56C, but the fans were still silent until I exited, and then the CPU fan spun up for a few seconds, then almost instantly throttled back down to silent.
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Old 08-29-2020, 06:50 PM   #52
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I figured I might be able to change my CPU fan profile such that I can leave the "turbo boost" on or whatever it's called, and not have the fan throttle that much. But I realized without that feature on, this system is still so much more powerful than my previous one (which is still a capable computer for most tasks) that I just don't care about that extra power.
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Old 08-29-2020, 07:09 PM   #53
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Since I just loaded a new bios from a few days ago, I wanted to shake it out, and see what items I might get away with enabling. Specifically I wanted to see if they got my Corsair Vengence PC3200 DDR4 tuned correctly so I could just pick it off a list, and they did indeed fix that.

Then I thought while I'm poking around in the bios I'll see if enabling Core Boost still is super noisy. It was, but they have improved the fan control in this newest bios also, so I ran their Qfan tool and unlike before, I'm getting silent performance with REAPER running big projects, but the extra juice is there if I were to work on a video project, or fly a plane like the one I used to heat the CPU up for testing.
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Old 09-04-2020, 04:40 PM   #54
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[...]

And no, I don't see there being any way that there could be additional drift.
So I decided to switch from 44.1kHz to 48kHz @ 64 samples and 3 periods, which REAPER displays as 1.3/2.6ms.

Then I re-ran the loopback latency test and got a very consistent 197 samples on every ping test so I added that as an offset.

If I'm running 48k, then the hidden latency would be another 4.10ms? 197/48=4.10416666667 Is this correct?

If so, then would you add the 4.10ms to the displayed latency of 1.3/2.6ms for a grand total of 8ms for a full round trip time including hidden latency?
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Old 09-05-2020, 04:11 PM   #55
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I'd add 99 samples on the input and 98 on the output (or the reverse), then your latency compensation ought to work perfectly. If you add it to Audio->recording->output/input manual offset, then reaper will show the right latency, and it will also know what to do.
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Old 09-06-2020, 07:01 AM   #56
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I'd add 99 samples on the input and 98 on the output (or the reverse), then your latency compensation ought to work perfectly. If you add it to Audio->recording->output/input manual offset, then reaper will show the right latency, and it will also know what to do.
Veddy cool! So does this look like what you would expect?

I un-ticked Use Driver Reported Latency, plugged in the 1.3/2.6ms that was the reported latency, and added the 99/98 in the additional boxes.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:54 PM   #57
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So Kenny has a video of how to do a loopback test recording the output of one track to a new track and then letting REAPER count the samples of difference. Doing this test I am now seeing the second track line up within a few samples from one test to the next, closing REAPER each time so it has to re-connect to the USB audio device for each run of the test.

Here's the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZcX...ature=youtu.be
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:02 PM   #58
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You mean the video I linked to in post 36?
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Old 09-09-2020, 10:37 PM   #59
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You mean the video I linked to in post 36?
Hehe, yep! I'm just getting my head wrapped around this, and am seeing variation from one test to the next as well. After about twenty tests in a row, I think I have it set in the middle of the variations I'm seeing, so it's only a handful of samples early or late now.
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Old 09-10-2020, 08:26 AM   #60
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I figured that would happen, since it happened on my system when using a USB audio device. At least we know how to avoid that, if we want (not allowing Reaper to release the audio device)...at least for the duration of a recording session, which is ultimately the most important consideration. If that value changes from one recording session so the next, it's not a big deal. Consistency within a recording session is more important. If the offsets are consistent for a session (assuming a player's timing is perfect), it's likely everything will be aligned properly.
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:06 PM   #61
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So Glennbo, what kind of CPU usage are you seeing on an average sized project on your new 16 core rocket?
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:31 PM   #62
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So Glennbo, what kind of CPU usage are you seeing on an average sized project on your new 16 core rocket?
Here's a grab of REAPER's Performance Meter while playing back my most recent project and downloading a huge game on Steam that my kid bought for me, plus I have my web browser open keying this in and have email being checked every so often in the background.

REAPER is set for 64 samples and 3 periods @ 48/24 for about 8ms full round trip latency including the hidden latency. No hiccups.
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Old 09-11-2020, 08:09 PM   #63
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Wow - 12%! And that's an 8 core CPU! I thought the 3700x was 16 cores, but when I looked it up to price it, I saw it's "only" 8 cores. I'm a little concerned about the number of PCIe lanes, though. Granted, it's PCIe4, so it's the same bandwidth as PCIe3 with twice as many lanes... I've been reading up on Ryzen motherboard specs since you started posting about your new machine.

I've been thinking about building a 16 core EPYC based machine, and I still might. I plan to utilize Reaper's video features to add some visuals to my music, maybe even do some live sound & video at a local venue when Covid lets up.. and post the results on youtube.

I have to do some more research on the bandwidth requirements for video.

Thanks for the info!
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Old 09-11-2020, 09:15 PM   #64
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Wow - 12%! And that's an 8 core CPU! I thought the 3700x was 16 cores, but when I looked it up to price it, I saw it's "only" 8 cores.
Quote:
I'm a little concerned about the number of PCIe lanes, though. Granted, it's PCIe4, so it's the same bandwidth as PCIe3 with twice as many lanes... I've been reading up on Ryzen motherboard specs since you started posting about your new machine.
I held out for months to get a board with the B550 chipset specifically because I wanted PCIe 4.0 NVMe M.2 support. I'm using two SSDs right now, but will pop for a bigger NVMe M.2 that is Gen4 in the near future.

Quote:
I've been thinking about building a 16 core EPYC based machine, and I still might. I plan to utilize Reaper's video features to add some visuals to my music, maybe even do some live sound & video at a local venue when Covid lets up.. and post the results on youtube.

I have to do some more research on the bandwidth requirements for video.

Thanks for the info!
Good luck in your adventures! I've been putting multiple instances of Kontakt on their own tracks, and the 8 cores and 16 threads seem to be real happy with that arrangement.
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Old 09-12-2020, 11:27 AM   #65
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Veddy cool! So does this look like what you would expect?

I un-ticked Use Driver Reported Latency, plugged in the 1.3/2.6ms that was the reported latency, and added the 99/98 in the additional boxes.

No!

I'd leave the use the reported latency and then add the additional latency in samples. And you'd have to redo it if you changed samplerate, buffersize, etc.

Reaper knows the latency given by buffersize and periods, but it doesn't know the additional latency incurred by the usb stack, hardware buffers, converters, etc.
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Old 09-12-2020, 01:10 PM   #66
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No!

I'd leave the use the reported latency and then add the additional latency in samples. And you'd have to redo it if you changed samplerate, buffersize, etc.

Reaper knows the latency given by buffersize and periods, but it doesn't know the additional latency incurred by the usb stack, hardware buffers, converters, etc.
I do have it now set to use reported latency, and only have the additional entered into the input manual offset box.

Recording a single kick on track 1 then playing it back into track 2's input and recording that now shows the two waves lined up. It does however change by a few samples on every fresh test, so I did the test about 20 times to find the sweet spot number for the offset, and on most tests now, the second track is only ahead or behind by 2 or 3 samples. I can live with that!
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:46 AM   #67
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Yes that will do!

It's when it's a couple of ms off that concerns me. A few samples won't make any difference at all. In fact it's just paranoia on my part, but I prefer to prepare and take care of all technical aspects that I can. There are enough surprises to deal with all the time anyways!
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