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Old 03-20-2019, 01:11 PM   #1
Cranky Emu
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Default Monitor / Headphone recommendations

Gidday all;
Originally I asked this question in the PLAP Stalkbook group, but have wound up more confused than inspired.
Currently I have Alesis Elevate 6 monitors, which I like, overall they are pretty good for the money. Have no intention of getting rid of them.

I am looking for a way of listening to mixes on something other than the Elevates. Currently that is limited to the Focusrite headphones (more on them later) that I got with the original Solo studio pack. I don't have a mini Hi-Fi, boombox, Ghetto blaster whatever you want to call them, nor do I have a car stereo. The Elevates are it. So I was looking at adding a second set of monitors, which I've narrowed down to:
  • Yamaha HS8
  • Adam T7V
  • JBL LSR308P MkII
Price is the one common denominator here, they all fall within roughly the same price bracket here in Australia. Add to that, a large number of audio/music shops sell them - importing speakers is out of the question due to the cost of freight. Has anyone had experience with any of these models, if so what are your thought's on any or all of them? Why do you like a particular model over the others?
Even though the Adams are a little bit more expensive than the other two, the ribbon tweeter was what drew me to them, as by all accounts they are not as harsh in the top end.

Headphones:
Monitors will be purchased before headphones, although down the track I am looking to upgrade the headphone department as well.
So would like to know peoples thoughts in this area so I can start seeking out the recommended headphones with the vision of listening to them myself.

This is a little more up in the air. I have no candidates narrowed down. Only preference is for closed back (not a deal breaker though, open to all models), headphones. I can't use earbuds just in case anyone is thinking of suggesting them. I have listened to the Bose 35's, although the 'listen' maybe might not be very subjective. It was at a retailers display stand where you had three songs to choose from and no way of playing something on a USB stick you took with in with you. Call me paranoid, but I'm not so convinced these 'three' (very good sounding) tracks have not being mixed/mastered in such a way as to highlight certain aspects of the headphones and hide other not-so desirable aspects. Not even sure if the Bose 35's would rate as a 'studio headphone', just mentioned them as I seen them on display and listened to them.
Whilst the Focusrite's are an okay headphone, they are definitely not stellar in performance. So any thoughts and recommendations on headphones would be great.

Would appreciate any and all feedback. Or even suggestions on other monitors within a similar price bracket you think are worthy - tell me why too. Thanks.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:19 PM   #2
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Kali LP-8

Same price the LSR308 and designed by the same (now former JBL) engineers. IMO they are an improvement over the JBL's.

I have the LP-6 and IMO (and many others) they are by far the best monitors in their price range.


https://www.kaliaudio.com/product-sp...tudio-monitors

https://www.google.com/search?q=kali...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:38 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Kali LP-8

Same price the LSR308 and designed by the same (now former JBL) engineers. IMO they are an improvement over the JBL's.
Unfortunately Kali do not have any distributors in Australia.
Even if I could find a US dealer prepared to ship them to Australia, with the exchange rate and cost of freight that would put them well over $1000 AUD.
Kali themselves also will not send outside of US/Canada according to their website.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:53 PM   #4
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If you have the budget, any of the monitors you mention will serve you extremely well.

You had mentioned you don't have a smaller consumer grade speaker to check mixes on. Is this a factor in your choice? If so, it might not hurt to explore the Avantone Mixcube or the real-deal Auratone 5c. If I were in the market for a second pair of speakers, this would be my choice. YMMV, I'm a home studio enthusiast, nothing more.
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Have no intention of getting rid of them.

…So I was looking at adding a second set of monitors
That might not be a great idea. It's usually best to "learn your monitors" so you can get good mixes. If you start switching between monitors, you'll be 2nd-guessing yourself and you'll probably get inconsistent results.


Most professional mixing/mastering engineers wouldn't want an "upgrade", at least not frequently, because they have to re-learn what a good mix sounds like. (Plus of course, they are already using great monitors.)


If you want to upgrade, it might make more sense to add a subwoofer to your existing monitors. You've got to be a little careful with that... Get a good subwoofer and measure (and possibly treat) your room because inaccurate bass can be as bad (some say worse) than no bass.


I've seen multiple monitors in pictures of pro studios, but they are usually drastically different from each other. You might see some small "home-studio" type monitors along with the bigger super-expensive main monitors, and maybe you'll see some cheaper little speakers.


In the old days there was a popular Yamaha speaker (or Auratones) used to simulate a "cheaper home system". I don't remember what model the Yamaha was*, but I'm pretty sure the modern Yamaha monitors are better and similar to other small monitors.


I don't have a headphone recommendation for you. Pros will tell you not to use headphones as your main monitors. They are good if you need to listen carefully for "little defects" or "little details" and of course, it's good to check your mix on headphones.


There are some really-good frequently-recommended headphones in the $200 - $300 USD range so you probably don't need to spend more than that.


Of course you also need headphones if the performer is listening to a backing-track, but those don't have to be great... They only have to be good-enough for the performer to feel confident.


Quote:
I don't have a mini Hi-Fi, boombox, Ghetto blaster whatever you want to call them, nor do I have a car stereo. The Elevates are it.
How about your TV? Or, do you have a laptop or even a cell phone for a really-downgraded sound? You might consider getting some "average" computer speakers and/or you should be able to find a cheap-used boombox, although you'll probably have to burn a CD to use it.


As with your monitors, it's a good idea to keep a known-good commercial reference recording (in the same genre) so you know what a good recording should sound like on these downgraded systems.


You also need headphones if the performer is listening to a backing-track, but those don't have to be great... They only have to be good-enough for the performer to feel confident.


* P.S.
Yahama NS-10

Last edited by DVDdoug; 03-20-2019 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 03-20-2019, 02:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
If you have the budget, any of the monitors you mention will serve you extremely well.

You had mentioned you don't have a smaller consumer grade speaker to check mixes on. Is this a factor in your choice? If so, it might not hurt to explore the Avantone Mixcube or the real-deal Auratone 5c. If I were in the market for a second pair of speakers, this would be my choice. YMMV, I'm a home studio enthusiast, nothing more.
Well I do have some really cheap and nasty JVC speakers, as for their origin I am not exactly sure, but I do believe they were originally part of a component/bookshelf HI-Fi type system. Eh I picked them up for 10 bucks at a Sunday market - I have issues with collecting speakers

For a truly cheap and nasty sound, probably comparable to what a lot would have going on the local radio station in their kitchen they would fill that bill okay, I have a little 20 watt amp I made that I use to run them. Haven't used them for ages actually.

As for the 5c's they are around $500 in Australia, I might be totally wrong, just seems to be a lot of money for such a small box. Add to it I would have to get a decent amp to run them.

Quote:
I'm a home studio enthusiast, nothing more.
Same boat here - have a local'ish one-man-band that I do a little for and an EDM music girl from Sweden but that is it. None of which covers, or comes close to what I spend on this stuff. One of my biggest problems is I keep finding faults or things to change in a mix - it is rare that I will say "I'm really happy with that".
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
That might not be a great idea. It's usually best to "learn your monitors" so you can get good mixes. If you start switching between monitors, you'll be 2nd-guessing yourself and you'll probably get inconsistent results.
You might be right and I might be better putting money into other areas. Some, maybe even a lot here may not agree with me, but the Elevate 6's are by no means a horrible monitor - in the specs they say the bottom end range is 50Hz, they go lower than that, down to around 40 and start to roll off. The top end can be a bit harsh, depending on the instrument/vocalist. Actually it can get to being (for me) painful.

Quote:
Most professional mixing/mastering engineers wouldn't want an "upgrade", at least not frequently, because they have to re-learn what a good mix sounds like. (Plus of course, they are already using great monitors.)
I did, just for curiosity look at Genelec's after I seen the price I fell right off my rocking chair. Okay, I understand what you are saying about having to learn the sound of the new monitors. What I do not get is, across the Internet, YouTube - everywhere you will hear people say "Listen on as many different speakers as you can". I understand the concept of listening on something in line with what most consumers would have in their house - that I get. In nearly every studio I have gone into, big or small they have at least three pairs of monitors. Their mains, then something along the lines of the NS10/40's which were hugely popular in their day, and those little dinky Auratones - oddly most rarely switched to the Auratones. I've always been left wondering why they even got them.

Quote:
I don't have a headphone recommendation for you. Pros will tell you not to use headphones as your main monitors. They are good if you need to listen carefully for "little defects" or "little details" and of course, it's good to check your mix on headphones.
I wouldn't use them as a main source of monitoring, I've never found a pair of headphones yet that I can wear long-term, more than 30 minutes at a time before they cause me pain - I wear glasses, so a lot of headphones push against the (legs - are they called that?) of the glasses and can get pretty damn uncomfortable and painful. Not in any great hurry to lash out on another set of headphones.

Quote:
Of course you also need headphones if the performer is listening to a backing-track, but those don't have to be great... They only have to be good-enough for the performer to feel confident.
I don't do any recording, only mixing. I've only done recording once for the one-man-band guy I do a bit for now and then, and that was only to replace his acoustic guitar track.

Quote:
How about your TV? Or, do you have a laptop or even a cell phone for a really-downgraded sound? You might consider getting some "average" computer speakers and/or you should be able to find a cheap-used boombox, although you'll probably have to burn a CD to use it.
Would I be better served buying a mid-priced bookshelf stereo system that played wav's (or cd's at worst)?

Quote:
As with your monitors, it's a good idea to keep a known-good commercial reference recording (in the same genre) so you know what a good recording should sound like on these downgraded systems.
In respect to references, I have to admit I am not a big 'reference' fan, I know that goes against the grain with a lot of people. I just prefer to let the song tell it's story and go from there. Obviously I have or develop an idea of what it should sound like in the end, and aim for something professionally recorded that is close to it. I tend (this may be insane) use a lot of Dire Straits stuff as a reference. Main reason is I know it so well and how it sounds on many different playback systems. One of my favourite bands.

As an aside - years ago, not so obvious now, you could tell if a song was mixed in Australia, USA or UK (or engineers from those countries) by the sound. They all had their own unique sound. This wasn't always the case, but with a lot of 'radio played' music you could pick it.

With respect to the NS-10's, I've heard the NS-40's and have been lucky enough to spend time in a studio that had them, so I got to know their sound pretty well. This was one reason of the HS-80's in the pick.
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Old 03-20-2019, 08:17 PM   #8
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I'm going to throw in another recommendation for Auratone 5c cubes. I have eight of them here arranged in a third order Ambisonic cube array and they have been my main monitors now for a few years. I have them paired with four Electrovoice DL15W subs (from a Village Roadshow cinema) and all calibrated with Sonarworks Reference 4 Studio edition. My mixes translate very well now with little effort and they are great to mix on for extended periods.

As for headphones, I purchased a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pros and absolutely love them. When paired with Sonarworks, they sound extremely neutral and very detailed with a bandwidth much wider than any human ear will ever hear.
These are open backed but if you prefer closed back, the DT1770 Pro are the ones.
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Old 03-20-2019, 09:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
I'm going to throw in another recommendation for Auratone 5c cubes.
Stand-alone without subs what are your thoughts on them as a stereo pair?

Quote:
As for headphones, I purchased a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pros and absolutely love them.
Okay thanks, I will see if I can find some to listen to.

Quote:
When paired with Sonarworks
At $400 AUD Sonarworks probably ain't going to be added to my collection, just got Ozone 8 and that was around the same price. Not knocking your suggestion, you are more experienced than I - as I really don't make money from this, it is a bit hard to justify the need/want for additional software. I promised myself I wasn't going to buy anymore software full stop prior to downloading the demo of Ozone, playing around with it for a few days they had me by the cods, there was no escape.

Just looked at your equipment list, holy shit! You are one lucky camper to have some of those vintage keyboards/synths. Very nice.
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Old 03-21-2019, 02:14 AM   #10
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A thought: Before you opt for anything with 8 inch bass drivers, think about the dimensions of your room and you most typical music genre. I made the mistake a few years back of buying a pair of powered 8" Yamahas to go with my old but excellent Tannoy 6 inchers. Kept them for a week. I had bought them to add a little more bottom for when the band was rehearsinfg in my small home studio and the bottom end even with decent treatment on the walls, etc., was uncontrollably boomy.

I have gone in the opposite direction & have a pair of Unity Audio The Rock IIs with FIVE inch drivers in sealed cabinets. In my room, rthey sound great & have all the bottom end I will ever noeed.
Re your choices I would opt for the JBLs too, even though I never liked the full size & midfiled JBLs back in the day. All were very bass light in every studio I heard them. Litlle ones seem to be pretty good.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post
Stand-alone without subs what are your thoughts on them as a stereo pair?
Their imaging and transient response is hard to beat. Frequency response uncorrected is a little peaky in the upper mids but easy to tame. Low end rolloff is quite smooth and they go lower than one would expect from their size. If you are not running them at crazy levels and use them in close proximity, you can add a small amount of low end boost at 40-50Hz and hear quite a respectable amount of low end. Granted, you won't hear wall shaking bass but nor would that be expected.
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Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post
Okay thanks, I will see if I can find some to listen to.
Be prepared to be startled in a good way!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post
At $400 AUD Sonarworks probably ain't going to be added to my collection, just got Ozone 8 and that was around the same price. Not knocking your suggestion, you are more experienced than I - as I really don't make money from this, it is a bit hard to justify the need/want for additional software. I promised myself I wasn't going to buy anymore software full stop prior to downloading the demo of Ozone, playing around with it for a few days they had me by the cods, there was no escape.
I'd be inclined to recommend getting Sonarworks before purchasing headphones. It is a night and day difference for ANY monitoring setup and something I would not want to mix without. Honestly, it is one of the most important and significant investments I've made recently. A total game changer!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post
Just looked at your equipment list, holy shit! You are one lucky camper to have some of those vintage keyboards/synths. Very nice.
Cheers!
It's been a work in progress now for around four decades. There are a few more recent additions to that list and I need to update it.
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Old 03-21-2019, 09:42 AM   #12
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Quote:
Only preference is for closed back (not a deal breaker though, open to all models), headphones.


...I've never found a pair of headphones yet that I can wear long-term, more than 30 minutes at a time before they cause me pain - I wear glasses, so a lot of headphones push against the (legs - are they called that?) of the glasses and can get pretty damn uncomfortable and painful. Not in any great hurry to lash out on another set of headphones.
"Sealed" (closed-back) headphones won't seal and they won't sound like they are supposed to sound. I've got some of the same issues. I wear contact lenses but I'm old-enough that I also need reading glasses when I'm at the computer.


Quote:
What I do not get is, across the Internet, YouTube - everywhere you will hear people say "Listen on as many different speakers as you can".
That should be just a final-check to make sure nothing "sounds wrong" on these systems. I've read about some pro mixing/mastering engineers using their car stereo and their home stereo etc. Not "everywhere"... Just a few alternate setups that they are familiar with.


These guys have really-good monitors and good rooms and lots of experience.


If you are an amateur with a less-than-perfect monitoring set-up and less experience, it's more important to check your mix on several different systems. So, I say "everywhere" for amateurs (like me).


Quote:
In respect to references, I have to admit I am not a big 'reference' fan, I know that goes against the grain with a lot of people.
The main idea is to keep your "ears calibrated". Have you ever added a little EQ or reverb and it sounds better, then you add a little more, then a little more... and then when you listen the next day it doesn't sound so great?


I used to repair audio equipment and once when I was trying to fix some distortion it started sounding normal after awhile and I started questioning what I was hearing. I had to listen to some clean sound to reset my brain. It was a weird experience but I learned something about the brain.


Quote:
I tend (this may be insane) use a lot of Dire Straits stuff as a reference.
Also one of my favorite bands! And the recordings (at least some of them?) sound great! I'm guessing they are not overly-compressed.


Quote:
A thought: Before you opt for anything with 8 inch bass drivers, think about the dimensions of your room and you most typical music genre. I made the mistake a few years back of buying a pair of powered 8" Yamahas to go with my old but excellent Tannoy 6 inchers. Kept them for a week. I had bought them to add a little more bottom for when the band was rehearsinfg in my small home studio and the bottom end even with decent treatment on the walls, etc., was uncontrollably boomy.
Yes, bad-bass can be worse than no-bass. But even an 8-inche woofer seems small to me and I've never heard an 8-inch woofer that could accurately reproduce the sound of a kick-drum or bass guitar.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:05 AM   #13
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About headphones: for narrowing down to a (one possible) subset out of ALL possible ones...

a) see this collection in the categories relevant to you: https://www.innerfidelity.com/conten...itys-wall-fame

b) note on the product pages of which ever phones interest you if they are aimed more at the hi-fi end user or studio use

I'm not saying Innerfidelity's lists are the be all end all tome of best headphones out there, especially for music making vs. listening (this whole thing is also quite subjective, and all that), but as a knowledgeable overall resource of everything headphone related, Tyll's input is something I value very much. He lives and breathes headphones and strives to make the most out of measurement techniques and the like.

For the record, my own tried and tested headphones for studio use have been Beyerdynamic DT-880 Pro and Audio Technica ATH-M50 for years now ... They suit me well, but everyone should just try many pairs of potential candidates and decide which ones suit them. The same goes for speakers, but I don't have recommendations that relevant to this thread on those.

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Old 03-21-2019, 10:27 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post

As for the 5c's they are around $500 in Australia, I might be totally wrong, just seems to be a lot of money for such a small box. Add to it I would have to get a decent amp to run them.
They're the same here in Canada, but most retailers are sticker pricing at $399 CAD. That'll come out to roughly $450 with taxes.

Used is another story. I've come across single 5cs for $100. Maybe scour the local ads?

As for an amp, I've read it doesn't matter what amp you use. You probably don't need a Macintosh tube amp.
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:34 AM   #15
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Whatever headphones you get, make sure the headphone amp has the ability to drive the impedance of the headphones. 100 ohm headphone amp will make 30 ohm headphones sound bad.
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Old 03-21-2019, 12:44 PM   #16
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think about the dimensions of your room
Incredibly small. To save any confusion, it is actually a converted shipping container, which has been completely lined, mdf wall panels (6mm) and wool (that fibreglassy/woold combo stuff) insulation.

Due to the arrangment and my desk, I am very close to the monitors, only say three/four foot from them.

Quote:
your most typical music genre.
Nothing typical, I will tackle anything - at least try to, success may not always be guaranteed

I do not record, just mix, so any band/performer related issues are not an issue for me. As for 8's, the Elevates I have currently are 6.5 with front facing ports.

There is nothing wrong with them (the Elevates) - I just wanted another opinion (monitors) so to speak, as going from the Elevates to the Focusrite headphones is like black and white.

A mix can sound really nice on the monitors, in respect to overall tonal response - listen on the headphones and more often than not you will find the kick is well up, I am almost convinced they have a peak around 100-125 Hz. Haven't been able to find any freq response chart for them. There also seems to be a fair peak in the mids as well, around 1-3 KHz.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by DVDdoug View Post
I also need reading glasses when I'm at the computer.
My eye-sight is pretty average in respect to gawking at a monitor or reading. Although since getting the 32 inch monitor I can go for periods without the specs, but I usually find I end up with sore eyes after doing so.

Quote:
These guys have really-good monitors
...and really good bank accounts.

Quote:
So, I say "everywhere" for amateurs (like me).
I'm an amateurs, amateur I've become that good at being an amateur lol.

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Have you ever added a little EQ or reverb and it sounds better, then you add a little more, then a little more... and then when you listen the next day it doesn't sound so great?
Yup! (in my best southern swamp person accent)
There was this dance song I was toying around with awhile back from CMT, and the amount of reverb (being wise in hindsight) was horrendous, but when I did it, it (at least I thought) sounded really cool, even listening to it every now and then for a week later - it still sounded cool. Then about two weeks later I listened to it again and thought "That is just shit".

Quote:
Also one of my favorite bands! And the recordings (at least some of them?) sound great! I'm guessing they are not overly-compressed.
It would be interesting and great to see how the whole process took place, from how it was mic'ed, what mic's were used (and why), and the signal chain to the magnetic coated plastic strip. Then what processing took place in the mixing domain. They have a very unique sound that they have replicated pretty closely across most of their stuff, with the exception of a few.

Quote:
I've never heard an 8-inch woofer that could accurately reproduce the sound of a kick-drum or bass guitar.
No comparison to studio monitors, but when I was doing live work in my roadie phase, (many many years ago now) the best bottom end sound, and sound overall, was with an Australian band called Icehouse, they were using a Court Acoustics PA. The kick from that PA did exactly that, kicked - you could physically feel it hitting you.

By far one of the best pub touring PA's I had ever heard. Most of the major Australian touring bands used Meyer MSL PA's, they were a pretty reliable work-horse. I've never had the chance to work or even listen to stadium type PA systems, but I was truly impressed by the Court Acoustics system.

In the studio domain, the JBL monitors with the huge 18 or 24 inch bottom end drivers in them, not sure of the model, but you see them in a lot of big studios. I was fortunate enough to spend time in a studio that had them, they sound real nice. They are monstrous though, and well out of my reach both financially and spatially. Plus it would be pretty dumb to fork out for something like without having a well made and acoustically treated control room for a start. Be sorta like me buying Genelec S360's or similar - a waste in my environment.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:15 PM   #18
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Whatever headphones you get, make sure the headphone amp has the ability to drive the impedance of the headphones. 100 ohm headphone amp will make 30 ohm headphones sound bad.
Thanks for that, I was looking at buying a Presonus monitor controller, so I will keep that in mind, right now I just use the headphone output in the Focusrite 2i2.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by kirk1701 View Post
They're the same here in Canada, but most retailers are sticker pricing at $399 CAD. That'll come out to roughly $450 with taxes.

Used is another story. I've come across single 5cs for $100. Maybe scour the local ads?

As for an amp, I've read it doesn't matter what amp you use. You probably don't need a Macintosh tube amp.
Canadian and Australian dollar are usually always pretty close to each other. Second-hand, where I live, there isn't a huge pro-studio user base and most of the studio that are around here rarely sell their stuff. I've never even seen Auratones on eBay for that matter.
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Old 03-21-2019, 01:21 PM   #20
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About headphones: for narrowing down to a (one possible) subset out of ALL possible ones...

<insert chop here.
Beyerdynamic DT-880 Pro and Audio Technica ATH-M50 for years now.
I looked at the DT-1990's that Dave (I think it was) suggested, they are near the price of all the monitors I have on the drawing board Actually in some cases they are more expensive than the monitors!

I am just wondering if I am better to stick with the Alesis monitors I have and fork out for the DT-1990's instead?
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Old 03-21-2019, 04:39 PM   #21
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Cranky Emu, whereabouts in Australia are you? If you are anywhere near me, you're welcome to come over and have a listen to my DT1990s and the Auratones. I can show you with and without subs and with and without Sonarworks.

BTW - Icehouse were one of my favourite bands back in the day. Still love their work.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:32 PM   #22
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That's a really cool offer, Dave. Great forum spirit

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Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post
I am just wondering if I am better to stick with the Alesis monitors I have and fork out for the DT-1990's instead?
Definitely try the DT-1990, at Dave's or somewhere else if he isn't that nearby. And, well, this is so subjective territory in the end, but anyway: the DT-1990s would probably be the ones I would go for today if I wasn't already so completely dependent on my DT-880 Pros, hah. I simply know them and I feel so at home with them. The ATH-M-fiftys are my a/b cans that I occasionally check with (and use when ever I need to completely seal myself off behind sealed cups for some reason), the Beyers are the main ones I would keep if everything else had to go.
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:17 PM   #23
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Cranky Emu, whereabouts in Australia are you? If you are anywhere near me, you're welcome to come over and have a listen to my DT1990s and the Auratones. I can show you with and without subs and with and without Sonarworks.

BTW - Icehouse were one of my favourite bands back in the day. Still love their work.
Wow, thanks Dave.
Sadly I am in Victoria, about 8 hours drive away. I did not even realise you were in Australia. Maybe one day I will be able to drift over for a weekend holiday and have a visit to your studio, which would be pretty damn awesome. Alas before such sails can be hoisted one must fix ones vessel... my fourby is in a sad state currently and needs some major surgery. When that is done, who knows.

Might be a month or more before I am in a position to wander over. Will let you know/discuss arrangements anyway when I get into a position to do that.

Icehouse huh - well you have to be okay if you love Icehouse
Honestly I can still remember (and feel) that PA to this day and that was well over 30 years ago now. The lighting rig was pretty impressive as well. Oddly enough I can't recall the console or outboard gear they had, possibly a PM3000 console but can't be sure.

Just out of curiosity and delving into my memory recall - Dave + Adelaide, did you ever live in Victoria and play guitar in a band?
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Old 03-21-2019, 08:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
That's a really cool offer, Dave. Great forum spirit
It is, very much appreciated to.

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Definitely try the DT-1990, at Dave's or somewhere else if he isn't that nearby.
Next nearest place to listen to them would possibly be if I could find someone selling them in Geelong, about 2 n a bit hours drive away, next stop would be Melbourne about 3 n half hours drive.

Quote:
I simply know them and I feel so at home with them.
I would much prefer people speak about headphones/monitors they had experience with and used for a reasonable time - as they are more likely to give a more relevant response.

My head is all over the place right now, been doing battle with my new voip phone since 3 AM, stupid thing started ringing for no good reason, all 6 lines were receiving calls - and I only have one active line! I'm not that important

Whatever sent into it's temper tantrum has passed after having it powered off for about 5 hours. If it makes it through the next 24 hours without a repeat tantrum I will be happy.
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:22 AM   #25
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in Geelong
OT: Very happy Geelong supporter this evening!!
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Old 03-22-2019, 02:35 PM   #26
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OT: Very happy Geelong supporter this evening!!
Heh this place is getting smaller, I lived in Geelong for a number of years.
No I did not follow the Cats, or any other football team for that matter. Football is not my thing - nor is cricket.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:08 AM   #27
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Seriously, if your studio control room is THAT small, you probably need to look at a scombination of small small small monitors and very good quality headphones. I use a couple of pairs of AKGs I bought in Nashville in the early 1980s for tracking. 240s for me and 141s for anyone else (grin) but for critical headphone listening I have a pair of Sennheiser 650s which are bloody excellent, if a bit pricey.

I would be inclined to take Dave`s advice pretty seriously. You arent looking for an enjoyable listening experience, just an efficient way of getting a really good mix that translates to a lot of different systems.

I started out mixing on a pair of Mission HiFi speakers ages ago and they sounded great. Mixes made on them sounded absolutely crap when I played them in the car or on my portable player, though. Soon learnt that lesson and bought a pair of Tannoy NFM 6 version IIs. Way better but I didnt realise how coloured they were till I got my UA Rock IIs! Mind you they were TEN times the price I paid for the Tannoys.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:08 AM   #28
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Even if I could find a US dealer prepared to ship them to Australia, with the exchange rate and cost of freight that would put them well over $1000 AUD.
https://www.thomann.de/intl/search_d...cs=c0e7cc_8120

Looks like shipping is 80 AUD.
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Old 03-23-2019, 03:36 AM   #29
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If funds are tight my suggestion is to only consider buying a decent pair of monitors much later down the line when funds allow. Don't bother buying yet another budget/entry level pair for comparisons- unless you get a good listen and decide the new pair is clearly better than your Alesis ones, with the potential to use those instead (not as well as for flawed comparisons).

Don't fall for the flawed reasoning that monitors are only a tool for extracting detail. They should be pleasant to listen to and revealing, otherwise they are coloured with fatiguing distortions. Good monitors can be listened to for hours on end without fatigue. I say this but I have never enjoyed loudspeakers with OTT hyped treble or booming bass.

OTOH I am another forum user that will also suggest getting headphones that you are physically comfortable with.

Maybe listen to mixes in the car too.
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Old 03-23-2019, 02:40 PM   #30
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Thanks for that, total would be $1080, since you buy as a single and pay freight accordingly.
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Old 03-23-2019, 02:58 PM   #31
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If funds are tight my suggestion is to only consider buying a decent pair of monitors much later down the line when funds allow.
Funds are tight correct you are. It would be good, although I know I am never going to get the opportunity to physically do this - to have the Alesis Elevates (since I know them), HS8's, JBL's, the 5c's, Kali's, and Adams lined up in a pro control room, or a very well treated room and listen to them all - just to see what differences there are between them all. Maybe a little deeper bottom end on the 8's, but it wouldn't be staggering. And you are probably correct, in the sub $1000 price range I probably would not see a significant improvement. Maybe the only exception there would be the Adams, due to the ribbon HF.

Quote:
They should be pleasant to listen to and revealing, otherwise they are coloured with fatiguing distortions. Good monitors can be listened to for hours on end without fatigue.
I agree, if you can't listen to them for long periods they are pretty useless to you. Thus why I was interested in the Adams, as the ribbon HF driver should sound a lot smoother and less harsh. I am not going to knock the Elevates, they do well for their cost, although the top end can be a bit harsh on some instruments/vocals.

Quote:
another forum user that will also suggest getting headphones that you are physically comfortable with.
I am seriously considering Dave's suggestion re the DT-1990's, while they are in the same price bracket as all the monitors I listed, since I do not have a properly acoustically treated room they may well be a lot more beneficial. Ivan also made this suggestion as well.

Quote:
Maybe listen to mixes in the car too.
No car stereo, it got removed and replaced with an amateur radio

I am thinking of getting a little bookshelf style Hi-Fi system, just to have something else to listen to mixes on.
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Old 03-24-2019, 06:20 AM   #32
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... And you are probably correct, in the sub $1000 price range I probably would not see a significant improvement. Maybe the only exception there would be the Adams, due to the ribbon HF.

I agree, if you can't listen to them for long periods they are pretty useless to you. Thus why I was interested in the Adams, as the ribbon HF driver should sound a lot smoother and less harsh. I am not going to knock the Elevates, they do well for their cost, although the top end can be a bit harsh on some instruments/vocals.
Actually those are not ribbons, they are Heil air motion transformers. Lots of people confuse the two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer

Great for marketing but all of the best measuring tweeters are domes. Air motion transformers can sound great though and Adam make some cost no object towers with AMT midrange drivers too.
That's not to say a good ribbon or Heil cannot beat a cheap dome.
There is a lot more to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cranky Emu View Post

I am seriously considering Dave's suggestion re the DT-1990's, while they are in the same price bracket as all the monitors I listed, since I do not have a properly acoustically treated room they may well be a lot more beneficial. Ivan also made this suggestion as well.

I am thinking of getting a little bookshelf style Hi-Fi system, just to have something else to listen to mixes on.
You should be able to pick up a s/hand micro system for half nothing on eBay or in a Cash Converters type store.

Try those and Senn HD600/650. Also try others that are availabe to you in stores.
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:55 AM   #33
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I would go for something like..

Small budget:
Open Headphone - DT880 Pro for tracking/mixing, AKG K712 Pro for Soundstage evaluation
Closed Headphone - DT770 Pro, ATH-M50X, Shure SRH840, Steelseries Arctis Pro
Monitors - Mackie MR824

Medium/High budget:
Open Headphone Dynamic - Beyer T1, DT1990 Pro, HD800s, Focal Clear..
Open Headphone Planar - Hifiman Sundara/Ananda/Arya, LCD2/4, MrSpeakers Ether Flow, HE1000V2, Meze Empyrean..
Closed Headphone - DT1770 Pro, LCD2 Closed, Meze Classics (just for fun)
Monitors - Mackie XR824

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Old 03-24-2019, 03:27 PM   #34
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Actually those are not ribbons, they are Heil air motion transformers. Lots of people confuse the two.
On the Adam site: Accelerated Ribbon Tweeter with HPS Waveguide
So is this just marketing mumbo jumbo then?

As for Cash Converters, they went broke here years ago, now they just have a little loan/scam center and buying setup. They don't sell anything in the local store. As for eBay - worth a look yep. Although I do prefer to buy new, no I am not loaded with money, just being had to many times buying second-hand stuff. Rather hang off, save my bickies and buy something new with warranty etc.
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Old 03-24-2019, 04:21 PM   #35
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On the Adam site: Accelerated Ribbon Tweeter with HPS Waveguide
So is this just marketing mumbo jumbo then?
I understand that they have a variant of the Heil AMT. People in the industry like to differentiate that from traditional ribbons which are a thin ribbon of metal as opposed to pleated fabric (AMT).

Most AMTs are expensive drive units, too expensive for the entry level Adams. I am not criticizing the Adams BTW, just don't automatically assume that ribbon (or AMT variants) are going to be superior to domes.

You can see comparisons of different tech in a Wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudsp...c_loudspeakers
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As for Cash Converters, they went broke here years ago, now they just have a little loan/scam center and buying setup. They don't sell anything in the local store. As for eBay - worth a look yep. Although I do prefer to buy new, no I am not loaded with money, just being had to many times buying second-hand stuff. Rather hang off, save my bickies and buy something new with warranty etc.
Cash converters gone on Australia, good riddance - they were a cheap option though. Basically suggesting any second hand shop with electrical goods.
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:29 PM   #36
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Most AMTs are expensive drive units, too expensive for the entry level Adams. I am not criticizing the Adams BTW, just don't automatically assume that ribbon (or AMT variants) are going to be superior to domes.

Cash converters gone on Australia, good riddance - they were a cheap option though. Basically suggesting any second hand shop with electrical goods.
Okay no problems.
Whilst I took a big gamble with the Alesis monitors, having never heard them and was lucky they were ok. Although when I get new monitors I think hearing them with songs I know well is a better way to go.

From what a lot have said, might get more mileage from very good headphones.

There is one small music shop that does second-hand stuff here in the nearby city, although they mainly deal in instruments. There is one other more up-market music shop that sells just about everything, although in the monitor department they pretty much only have Yamaha's or Behringer gear - actually 95% of their audio gear is Yamaha or Behringer, with the exception of a few different interfaces.

Worst of living in the country, you don't have a lot of choice in the way of local dealers or ability to listen/test anything prior to purchase.
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:55 PM   #37
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Wow, thanks Dave.
Sadly I am in Victoria, about 8 hours drive away. I did not even realise you were in Australia. Maybe one day I will be able to drift over for a weekend holiday and have a visit to your studio, which would be pretty damn awesome. Alas before such sails can be hoisted one must fix ones vessel... my fourby is in a sad state currently and needs some major surgery. When that is done, who knows.

Might be a month or more before I am in a position to wander over. Will let you know/discuss arrangements anyway when I get into a position to do that.

Icehouse huh - well you have to be okay if you love Icehouse
Honestly I can still remember (and feel) that PA to this day and that was well over 30 years ago now. The lighting rig was pretty impressive as well. Oddly enough I can't recall the console or outboard gear they had, possibly a PM3000 console but can't be sure.

Just out of curiosity and delving into my memory recall - Dave + Adelaide, did you ever live in Victoria and play guitar in a band?
I did indeed live in Victoria. I was born in Melbourne, grew up in Geelong, lived in Colac for a year or two, lived in Ballarat for a decade, then Melbourne between early 2000s to around 2007, back to Geelong for a few years and have lived in Adelaide since 2011.
I didn't play guitar in a band, although I do also play guitar, but have played keyboards in numerous bands. I also played trumpet in the Geelong Concert Band in the 80s.
I was one half of an electronic music duo called Mother Venus in the early 90s (I played keyboards).

Did you ever see Geelong band, Smokin Joker at all? They got a reasonable amount of radio play in the mid 90s, mostly on the Melbourne and Geelong commercial FM stations. They did mostly originals and some covers. They were a classic rock band in the style of Led Zeppelin, Cream, Hendrix, etc. I was their resident engineer (live and studio) for a few years and played keyboard with them on one of their albums. We did a lot of bikie gigs including Broadford 95 (Hells Angels gig). Speaking of big Yamaha analog consoles, we had a PM4000 for that gig.

Back on the topic of headphones, I'm going to experiment with version two of my headphone mixing chain for REAPER shortly and will be posting the results on the forum for everyone. I'll be using free plugins (probably stick with what is included in REAPER) for the most compatibility. I'll be creating this monitoring chain using my DT1990 Pros.

If you want to get in touch, send me a PM with your email and we can swap contact details. Happy to chat on the phone about all this.
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Old 03-27-2019, 01:04 PM   #38
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I don't know about Australian availability (they're tough enough to get in Canada), but the new buzz is that Kali Audio are the tits, both tonally and wallet-wise.

https://youtu.be/cx5-5ozSd2c
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Old 03-27-2019, 05:58 PM   #39
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I didn't play guitar in a band
Okay you are not the 'Dave' I had originally pondered.

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Speaking of big Yamaha analog consoles, we had a PM4000 for that gig.
Have not seen one of them for years.

Quote:
Back on the topic of headphones, I'm going to experiment with version two of my headphone mixing chain for REAPER shortly and will be posting the results on the forum for everyone.
This will be interesting to see, can't wait.
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:18 PM   #40
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I don't know about Australian availability (they're tough enough to get in Canada), but the new buzz is that Kali Audio are the tits, both tonally and wallet-wise.
I did email Kali and ask if they would send direct, no response.
Although someone else posted a link for a German company that will do so.

Think I missed the boat on that competition
I always wonder if reviews are a 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' type of situation sometimes, especially with popular channels. If some company is going to give you nice goodies for free, you - or most don't, bite the hand that feeds you.

Still I would like to hear them in action. Same goes for the Adams as well. I've heard the HS8's, albeit briefly and not with music I know well.
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