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Old 01-28-2007, 07:50 PM   #1
Jae.Thomas
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Default the groove quantize request. With screen caps

well, when wondering what the difference is between quantization and "groove quantization" -- i guess i figured i would try and explain it here, and the possible uses and advantages to having something like this in reaper.

first i would explain how it is done in reaper.



this is just a few notes i threw into reaper. you see the snap was off and it doesnt align to the grid which is 1/4.

here are the settings i will quantize with:



now i will put up the original shot again, except this time where the quantization will take place. In other words, the quantization settings i specified will get the midi to align to these lines:



and when we apply the process, it makes this result:



so, this is the desired result, especially great for tuning off time performances -- it works great for aligning to a specific grid. However, it has its limits.

For instance, you can only dial in a specific amount, a repeating pulse -- for instance, in this case, every note must be aligned to a certain pulse in the beat. That is great for fixing timing problems, but when sequencing, you are usually using a snap setting, so the goal then is to do the reverse, to make things looser, to different extents. So we have the way FLstudio does it as an example.

Will post in a minute..
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Old 01-28-2007, 08:06 PM   #2
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we can see how the quantize function in reaper aligns directly to this rigid grid:



now, lets look at how FLstudio does it.

in FLstudio, you have certain midi files that are used as "grooves" -- we can take a look at one of them:



this is the "amen_16" (16 standing for the resolution of beats) -- groove. As you can see, the midi notes are not at all perfectly aligned to the grid. The deviations are used to represent the parameters upon which to quantize the midi notes. You can also see that velocity information is stored too. This will also be translated to the subsequent affected file, in the amount you desire.

lets apply it.

here is the original beat i came up with using FPC, an FLstudio generator.



sound of it here:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/10953/nonquantized.mp3

now, we will open up the quantize tool, and we get this box:



in the red is the groove template select box. If you dont want to just stick to a rigid grid, you open up a groove template. FLstudio automatically goes to the groove template folder in explorer.

underneath the "strength" section we will see in purple, the "Start time" control. One thing that is really great about FLstudio's groove quantize feature is the ability to have a knob to "dial in" just how much you want certain things to affect the file. For instance, if we dial in the start time to halfway, we will see (and hear if we have the file playing) the notes move back towards the grid a bit, 50 percent less.

Then we have the Sensitivity control, this is an overall control for all parameters on how much the midi will be "influenced" by the groove template.

the other thing, in blue, is "vol" -- one thing that is really neat is that the velocity of the template midi affects the quantization as well!
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Old 01-28-2007, 08:14 PM   #3
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so lets apply the "amen_16" template to my boring beat.

here is what it looks like:



since no notes were specifically selected, it affects the entire sequence.

here is what it now sounds like:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/10957/amenquantized.mp3

wow, much funkier. Pretty nice to actually have the OPPOSITE, a tool that goes from perfect pc timing to something a bit more "human"~!!

you can see in the picture the grid of the piano roll, and superimposed over that is the template of the groove we are applying. if we move the "sensitivity" or "Start/End Time" knobs, we can see those lines move and hear the results of them REAL TIME.

Lets say we only want to affect the hihats...

we select the hihats, open up the quantize menu, and do this:



here's what it sounds like:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/10959/hihatquantized.mp3

so we can see that using the hihat preset, we can even humanize just the hihats if we want, and even affect their velocity!


this would be great if something like this could be applied in reaper. An addition to the quantize menu, and something that can be heard real time, and use templates that we can make ourselves, it would be amazing and very helpful for midi sequencing.

I know acid also has a way of doing this, to audio as well! But i use FLstudio for this and figured it would be somewhat simple to have to implement.
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Old 01-28-2007, 08:25 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregh View Post
thanks jason this looks fantastic - esp if the same type of functionality could be applied to audio. also being able to extract grooves from audio and midi and write/edit our own in a text editor would be great.
indeed! one thing that is really really nice about FLstudio is that you can take a beat, sliced it, and then take that groove and use it for midi!!!!

I would post some screenies of that, but it would really just end up being FLstudiopreaching.

Basically, it consists of reading a wave file of a drumbeat, preferably on beat of course, it slices it, apportioning each slice to a midi note, and then sequencing those midi notes according to there space on the "Grid"..

you can then "flatten" this groove, making it all the same midi note, export it as a midi, and then use it as a groove template!!! then the midi sequence you apply it to will have that feel to it!
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:20 PM   #5
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I like these suggestions and examples.

I feel like I must always come in to say that along with powerful destructive quantize, I would also like a nice non destructive plugin form (that also has swing/groove) as it is nice to be able to change as you listen and know the original recording is still there unaltered.
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Old 01-28-2007, 10:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by cAPSLOCK View Post
I like these suggestions and examples.

I feel like I must always come in to say that along with powerful destructive quantize, I would also like a nice non destructive plugin form (that also has swing/groove) as it is nice to be able to change as you listen and know the original recording is still there unaltered.
indeed, I agree that both would be tops.
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cAPSLOCK View Post
I like these suggestions and examples.

I feel like I must always come in to say that along with powerful destructive quantize, I would also like a nice non destructive plugin form (that also has swing/groove) as it is nice to be able to change as you listen and know the original recording is still there unaltered.
Quantise/groove doesn't have to be destructive. In fact, it should NEVER be destructive unless specified by the user - Logic has this down perfectly.

Using a separate plugin for this is unnecessary and cumbersome. I can't think of any other DAW that uses plugins to quantise.
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:12 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
Quantise/groove doesn't have to be destructive. In fact, it should NEVER be destructive unless specified by the user - .
very true actually, FL doesnt make you commit to anything without hearing the effects first. VERY important IMO.
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Old 01-28-2007, 11:36 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by gregh View Post
are the groove maps editable - can you just write your own?
in FL they are like midi files -- just midi notes, all one note, C2 or something -- and they are positioned in such a way to act as a new grid, sort of. So yeah, totally editable. And creatable from current midi grooves
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Old 01-29-2007, 12:48 AM   #10
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I'm all over this one too!
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Old 01-29-2007, 01:04 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
in FL they are like midi files -- just midi notes, all one note, C2 or something -- and they are positioned in such a way to act as a new grid, sort of. So yeah, totally editable. And creatable from current midi grooves
Similar approach in Logic.

Hey Jason, have you ever taken the MIDI part of a REX file and used that as a groove..? Can be very interesting.

:-))

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Old 01-29-2007, 01:06 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
Similar approach in Logic.

Hey Jason, have you ever taken the MIDI part of a REX file and used that as a groove..? Can be very interesting.

:-))

Cheers,
havent, but thats exactly the type of thing you can do with FLstudio with any wave file (thats decently rythmic of course)..

although interesting that REX format has a midi in it??!?!?

cool
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Old 01-29-2007, 01:12 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
...although interesting that REX format has a midi in it??!?!?

cool
Well, I dunno if it contains actual MIDI, but if you drop a REX into Logic it creates a MIDI part that triggers the various REX slices. I think that's how Reason does it too.

Cheers,
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Old 01-29-2007, 01:23 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Andywanders View Post
Well, I dunno if it contains actual MIDI, but if you drop a REX into Logic it creates a MIDI part that triggers the various REX slices. I think that's how Reason does it too.

Cheers,
never really ran into any REX files. FLstudio supports them, perhaps if i had one i could try it out.... but im not too interested in FLstudio anymore. If the darned thing just supported multiple time signatures, it would be a great midi host for me. But, im hoping REAPER will encompass my needs for midi in the near future.

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Old 01-29-2007, 02:14 AM   #15
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Default this topic has been discussed a lot

and it would be great to see some funky quantisation and groove options. a few things that I definitely agree with from the above and/or would add:
- non-destructive - I had heard about it but now that I have seen this done in Logic it really does it better than any sequencer
- add ability to vary the application of the 'groove' over time so that there is an element of randomness in strength or another parameter
- extract groove from audio - a way to do this without 'slicing and save and make groove and apply' would be great
- using any midi part for a groove without 'all notes on c2, save as, then browse folder to find and apply' but also an option to just select a midi part in the current project and use that for the grid - you've gotta see how neat this is in Muzys/ComputerMuzys (free on CM cover disc) to see how well this can be done
- the ability to dial in strength etc and hear it whilst dialing in as described above in FLStudio is a rocking feature - LOVE IT

this is the last feature set I am waiting for before buying Reaper as it is a big part of my workflow for example:
- overdub record a midi drum part in a loop with little or no quantisation (still can't figure out getting midi loops to work properly in Reaper - did my head in spending three hours trying the other night, I must be thick) then use that part to give me the groove for a bass part (in Muzys I go to the 'grid' box and select 'my part' which pops up a midi part selector for the parts in the current project - when I select a part, the grid changes to reflect the timing in that part)
- there is a macro feature in Muzys that lets you with one command 'analyse loop, extract beats, extract MIDI, create sampler program, create MIDI part' and the resulting MIDI part can then be selected in grid as described above

WORKFLOW is what 'groove quantisation' should be all about in Reaper as there are lots of ways to do it but most of them are pretty clunky.

Standard shuffle and swing functions are also great and that whole dial in the strength thing in FLStudio just sounds so good I have to go and download the demo and try it.

Preset grooves are also a great idea. I once used some MPC groove templates in Cubase that were pretty rockin'.

There is so much that can be done creatively with MIDI and the ability to extract feel - as well as dynamics (does the FLStudio one extract the velocity info - this would really rock) and it can let those of us who can't play some instruments exploit what we can play (eg I play trumpet and can get a great guitar groove this way).

I can't wait to see some powerful MIDI features - and some decent explanation of or improvements to recording MIDI loops!!!

Oh I must say, Reaper is the ants pants, beez neez and best thing since sliced bread when it comes to Audio - can't wait for MIDI to catch up so I can get right on the Reaper bandwagon...

I'm off to check out the FLStudio demo for that listening when dialing in feature

Last edited by catscandal; 01-29-2007 at 02:19 AM.
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Old 01-29-2007, 10:26 AM   #16
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Great screens Jason !

This is the way to go. I've posted too many requests without screens ;P ...


Btw nice to see two more Logic Audio fans in here
Four great things in Logic Quantize (that make it the best in the business!) are:

1) every midi item (clip) is a groove (even muted items, rex midi, audio), you may even edit the groove data "live".

2) Quantize settings are nondestructive midi real time processing - while you preview and see the changes in the piano roll WYSIWYG !

3) Quantize is available on everything: physical i/o, channels, items, single notes.

4) Most of the time you use the basic stock Q templates: they are THAT GOOD - maybe because of the "Parameters" which are very flexible.

Could a good soul post screens of Logic Parameter box with a solid explanation, please ?
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Old 01-29-2007, 10:30 AM   #17
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one question about this oft-heralded "non destructive" quantization --

how do you know what notes were quantized and how much when you go and edit them afterwards? Thats one nice thing about FL's -- its non destructive to listen to different grooves, but when you apply it its good because then you can further edit it and know where everything is being shifted too....
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Old 01-29-2007, 10:56 AM   #18
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In Logic you may also "apply parameters" (a keycommand).

But for 99% of time you do not want to do that - because you may also move or quantize single notes on top of the set WYSIWYG quantization.

You may also cut an item into many pieces and apply different parameters to every slice, or use folders, all without "applying".

It's like VST or DX plugins...only WYSIWYG (so closer to "editable freeze").

It was very user friendly and super-quick, and I've done a lot of "real" projects with midi since Logic version 3.0

For the remaining 1% of work, you may always make a copy of the item (clip) - in Reaper we could use the "take" mechanism.
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Old 01-29-2007, 06:35 PM   #19
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Could a good soul post screens of Logic Parameter box with a solid explanation, please ?
Here ya go...

The parameter box affects selected MIDI parts, or MIDI thru (what you play from your keyboard and record into logic). So if you make changes in this box BEFORE you record, then those changes affect the recorded MIDI and are permanant (destructive quantise etc.). Usually you wouldn't want to do that - just play and record, then make the changes afterwards, non destructively.

Here you can also change the velocity values by adding or subtracting a fixed amount, or by compressing/expanding the velocity values (Dynamics).

Gate time is the note length and delay will shift the notes forward or backward by a certain amoumt (for obvious reasons gate time and negative delay cannot be realtime).

All settings can be made in musical values or numerical depending on the particular parameter

The actual quantise/groove options are huge, and by pressing 'P' you open up an "Extended Parameter Box" which gives more advanced options.

The quantise functions are also available in Logic's various MIDI editors and work on selected notes - that would be nice to see in Reaper.

Above all, it's so simple to use.

Cheers,
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Old 01-29-2007, 07:03 PM   #20
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(uploaded the same screen to stashbox.org )

...some items have more parameters (so this window looks more like Reaper's properties, only floating, linked and smaller).

Dynamics and gating (AFAIR) are displayed as percentage, and the Quantize menu includes rigid, triplet and groove quantize presets (including user presets made from midi items), that have their own additional parameters (swing, strength and ...can't remember them all).

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Old 01-29-2007, 07:14 PM   #21
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looks great!

I would really love something that superimposed a grid over the current one like the FLstudio example.
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Old 01-29-2007, 07:23 PM   #22
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and one more screen (taken from the "Logic features" thread...)

Here you see much more parameters (flam, q-range, q-velocity, q-length percentage or absolute values, etc.)





Btw the superimposing of many grids (here only as a visual help) brings us back to the "multiple grids" discussion, too...

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Old 01-29-2007, 07:26 PM   #23
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I have NO idea what to think of that lol, its gonna take a while to ingest.
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Old 01-29-2007, 07:31 PM   #24
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The second best thing to installing and trying Logic is reading its manual (contains many many "invisible" tips and trick on how it works).

Some things are just too hard to explain in one post :-) Hahahah !


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Old 01-29-2007, 11:46 PM   #25
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So *that's* where they were hiding the WMD...
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Old 01-30-2007, 12:05 AM   #26
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all those options look great, as far as im concerned, the more options the better -- as long as we can move the notes around in a human-ish way, im down with that.
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Old 09-08-2007, 09:18 AM   #27
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big ole bump-a-roo for number 2
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Old 09-08-2007, 06:20 PM   #28
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i'll chime in here too and say that this would be a welcome feature for reaper. i'd love to be able to 'swing' quantize stuff, among other things.
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:36 PM   #29
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Above all, it's so simple to use.
You said it! I would love to see all of the above features implemented very soon!

MIDI quantize love I say.

And I sure hope this thread doesn't fade away anytime soon.
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Old 09-08-2007, 08:48 PM   #30
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And I sure hope this thread doesn't fade away anytime soon.
thats the point of me bumping it, mon ami
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:30 AM   #31
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thats the point of me bumping it, mon ami
Damn, I didn't realize this thread was 9 months old...
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Old 09-09-2007, 07:43 PM   #32
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Just a reminder than non-destructive isn't about being able to preview a quantize setting and undo it, it's about remembering the original timing so you even if you have quantized a bunch of notes, you can quantize again to a new (replacement) groove/setting and it works with the original timings.

Otherwise it's a bit like compressing a second time rather than changing compression settings. (kinda!)

A Freeze Quantize function would be the only way the original timings would be replaced by current quantized ones. Non-destructive quantize with a freeze option is, I think, is a vital function for REAPER's MIDI.


REAPER's MIDI data is stored in relative values - ie a list of events with an indication of distance between them (note on.. wait 240 ticks, note off, wait 480, next note on), rather than absolute values where each event would have a an offset timing from the start of the item.

With absolute values it could simply keep an original and quantized position for each event, but I can imagine with the current way it's more complex to keep two position values for each event.

I'm currently keeping unquantized performances as one take and quantized as another within the same item - really not a slick way of being able to get back to original timing but, still, at least it means that is possible - i can split around a measure, swap the takes & glue.

This could be the basis of a way for REAPER itself to store (and restore) original timings - by just keeping parallel lists so that, provided the order of events is maintained, at least there's a way to quickly work out by adding the ticks where the unquantized note belongs.

I would have thought quantize is now the biggest MIDI area needing attention in REAPER, no?
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:53 AM   #33
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I would have thought quantize is now the biggest MIDI area needing attention in REAPER, no?
i believe it is, indeed the next frontier.
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Old 09-22-2007, 10:45 PM   #34
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hi,

yeah, i m realy missing this feature as well!


greets,

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Old 02-14-2008, 09:07 AM   #35
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Bringing this post back in the lights.

I also like to add that now when there is a swing/shuffle option in quantize, it would be great if the grid reflected this as well.
I'm imagining that the grid and quantize settings could be synced. When/if a groove quantize feature is implemented, the grid should reflect that as well.

Cheers!

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Old 02-25-2008, 05:35 AM   #36
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+11111111111111111111 on this... essential for working with MIDI for me...
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Old 02-26-2008, 06:35 AM   #37
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+1 from me too
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Old 02-26-2008, 09:07 AM   #38
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+1
favorite request
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:24 AM   #39
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the current midi quantize functions in reaper are non-destructive unless applied and frozen, no?


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Old 02-26-2008, 10:40 AM   #40
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the current midi quantize functions in reaper are non-destructive unless applied and frozen, no?


.tallis
yeah they are perfect its just that theres no groove quantize yet
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