"Fake Doubling"

[flmason]

Originally Posted by shemp

sorry to be a stick in the mud but why do we need a plug for this specific application? Why not just record 2 tracks? For me, the actual act of recording is the funnest part.

It reminds me of a cartoon I saw once of a kid with an electric guitar running thru racks and racks of equipment that says "Look dad, I can make it sound like an acoustic guitar"... And the dad is sitting next to him.... with an acoustic guitar.

Agreed, if you are looking for the double tracked sound. With some caveats.

I started the thread because I've seen engineers say things like "well... when the talent wasn't around we had to *fake* double track it..." and well... I know from trying things like effects or cloning the track and time/pitch shifting it, that comb filtering occurs when you flip the mono switch...

So I was looking for the "pro-method" that avoids that problem.

Second caveat is that when I personally play and know I may double track, it tend to get "ridgid-itis" because I know I'm going to have to play it again, "exactly". Tends to have a chilling effect on creativity.

Knowing the EVH model is out there, I'd *really* like a way to get the double tracked "bigness" of tone in one pass.

But, started the thread to explore just what "fake doubling" means to everyone else.

[stupeT]

Originally Posted by dub3000

the problem is, there's going to be lots of correlation between the original sound and the "doubled" sound (at the waveform level). the problem with this is that the human ear is REALLY sensitive to sounds that are delayed/pitched like that (your brain uses that sort of information to work out spatial information, like the size of a room, the distance of a sound source to your ear etc).

that DOESN'T happen with a separate recording of a different part (the waveforms will usually be completely different).

I see. What kind of correlation could that be?

Next to pitch and delay we could also slightly shift

* loudness level
* formants
* speed

What else?

[Lokasenna]

I suspect it would take a delay/pitch operating at the level of a few samples to make a doubling plugin work properly - that is, delay and pitch changes are randomized every (say) ten samples, stretching the signal forward and back in the same way a "perfect" second take will still vary. Anything larger-scale and our ears will hear it as just a copy of the original.

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by flmason

But, started the thread to explore just what "fake doubling" means to everyone else.

And for that - thank you for starting it.
For the same exact reasons you mentioned in whole post.
I've been following this thread off/on and learned a few things. Always good.

As for me, I have a habbit of trying to play rhythm and lead together anyway which often blows doubling.
Unless I set out to plan doubling I often can't.
No "ridgid-itis" problems.
My problem is "red light fever". hahahaha. Terms are funny, lol.
You know, seeing the record light on? I hate that thing! As soon as it's off, not one mistake.
Why is that?
There's another thread starter there somewhere?


Jim P.



.
LOL.

[dub3000]

Originally Posted by stupeT

I see. What kind of correlation could that be?

Next to pitch and delay we could also slightly shift

* loudness level
* formants
* speed

What else?

formant processing works because it completely mashes up the shape of the original signal - i do this occasionally with snares to fatten them up. there are probably some other granular/resynthesis tools that might also work.

the others will still just do weird stuff to your spatial perception of the track.

still reckon "copy verse 2 to verse 1 double, verse 1 to verse 2 double" works good if you can't get access to the original players.

[l0calh05t]

Don't know if this would work but what about using a delay modulated by a smooth but random signal? You could do the same with volume or eq modulated in a similar fashion to decorrelate the signals further.

[dub3000]

Originally Posted by l0calh05t

Don't know if this would work but what about using a delay modulated by a smooth but random signal? You could do the same with volume or eq modulated in a similar fashion to decorrelate the signals further.

it's still likely to sound weird. volume, delay and eq cues are used for perception of size, loudness and distance to a sound, and pitch modulation cues are used for whether something is moving towards you or away (e.g. doppler effect). slowly modulated short delays sound great, but they rarely sound like a proper doubling effect. unless the delay is too short, then it'll turn into a comb filter and it'll get weird.

there's a chart floating around that shows the psychoacoustic effect of delays from the 1ms to 500ms range, that's pretty interesting.

you really need an analysis/resynthesis tool to do it properly - formant mangling works pretty well.

[toyhouse]

Here's one; http://www.audiomastermind.com/detai...lter-9086.html

Or is there one in reaper or other recommended plug? I've never used formant filtering?


Jim P.




.

[dub3000]

not sure if that's the same sort of thing

reaper has one - use the reapitch plugin, set the time stretch mode to elastique 2 pro, then leave the pitch the same but mess with the formant slider. completely messes with the tone of stuff in a completely different way to eq, can sound great on percussion.

[toyhouse]

Originally Posted by dub3000

not sure if that's the same sort of thing

reaper has one - use the reapitch plugin, set the time stretch mode to elastique 2 pro, then leave the pitch the same but mess with the formant slider. completely messes with the tone of stuff in a completely different way to eq, can sound great on percussion.

Ahh yes, now it's making sense. I have used that.
Well, the plug-in above has some sort of filtering that gets mangled/blended???....over original sig. I'll have to look again. Not sure what's going on.

Thanks.



Jim P.




.

[flmason]

Originally Posted by toyhouse

And for that - thank you for starting it.
For the same exact reasons you mentioned in whole post.
I've been following this thread off/on and learned a few things. Always good.

As for me, I have a habbit of trying to play rhythm and lead together anyway which often blows doubling.
Unless I set out to plan doubling I often can't.
No "ridgid-itis" problems.
My problem is "red light fever". hahahaha. Terms are funny, lol.
You know, seeing the record light on? I hate that thing! As soon as it's off, not one mistake.
Why is that?
There's another thread starter there somewhere?


Jim P.



.
LOL.

Yup I agree... Rigiditis = Red Light Fever...

Same basic phenomenon, just more pronounced when I'm thinking "I need to double this to get the finished sound".