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Old 03-03-2013, 05:18 PM   #121
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I do have a Line6 Toneport interface (the older red & black one). Do U think that's sufficient ?
Well, it may be good for your guitar, but does it have interface for Line In/Mic, Hi Impedance, Low Impedance, Digital, SP dif, Firewire and USB?

You know a good little dedicated box for all your recording needs. Something like:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp...iw=800&bih=487

I think it would benefit you, greatly!

What does the Toneport plug into?
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:29 PM   #122
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It plugs into the PC by way of USB.
(and thanx for the link)

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:21 PM   #123
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I do have a Line6 Toneport interface (the older red & black one). Do U think that's sufficient ?
Why aren't you using the Toneport? Download the driver from Line 6 and install it, you want to use the Line 6 audio driver instead of Asio4All.

I have an older (red & black) UX2 and it was my only interface for several years and it performed well. Still does!

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:32 PM   #124
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Well, it may be good for your guitar, but does it have interface for Line In/Mic, Hi Impedance, Low Impedance, Digital, SP dif, Firewire and USB?
dea-man,

A Line 6 Toneport is an interface and not just for guitar, see here:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PodStuUX2/.

The only difference between these and the original Toneport is the color. The original ones were black and red, the newer ones are black. Everything else is the same.

I've had one of these for several years and it has served me well.

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Old 03-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #125
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Agh. Back here again. The renders to WAV, FLAC, AIFF are shortening my percussive sounds like a bit crusher, and MP3 is destroying the sound on the chorus too much....

Anyone found any good alternatives like a VST render plug in?
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Old 03-24-2013, 04:44 PM   #126
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Your having this problem even when using 'Save live output' set to the sample rate of your project, 64 bit WAV?
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:35 PM   #127
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Agh. Back here again. The renders to WAV, FLAC, AIFF are shortening my percussive sounds like a bit crusher, and MP3 is destroying the sound on the chorus too much....

Anyone found any good alternatives like a VST render plug in?
How can rendering to mp3 destroy only the chorus? Unless your chorus is much louder than everything else, so it compresses more..... What is your render level? Are you slamming it with a brickwall limiter by chance? Are you rendering to a different bit depth?
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:59 PM   #128
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Billoon-I'm not using any live recordings it's all constructs and mostly midi, but the 64 bit wav setting with 384 pt showed a great improvement, so thanks!

Richie-I think the reason the MP3 compression hits the chorus so much is because it's almost all different elements to the verse, bridge etc. The chorus bassline in particular sounds stripped out when rendered to mp3. Speaking as someone who doesn't know the science well, it would be great to have some dynamic capability for varying the way a compressor applies itself (ie so that it hit freq that weren't important to the sound for instance).
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:14 PM   #129
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Billoon-I'm not using any live recordings it's all constructs and mostly midi, but the 64 bit wav setting with 384 pt showed a great improvement, so thanks!

Richie-I think the reason the MP3 compression hits the chorus so much is because it's almost all different elements to the verse, bridge etc. The chorus bassline in particular sounds stripped out when rendered to mp3. Speaking as someone who doesn't know the science well, it would be great to have some dynamic capability for varying the way a compressor applies itself (ie so that it hit freq that weren't important to the sound for instance).
No matter how different a chorus is, the compression from rendering to mp3 should not be noticeable unless your whole mix is just too loud and already too compressed. And for that compression idea of yours.... look up multi-band compressors (ask and ye shall receive!)

Can you upload the rendered mp3 somewhere so we can hear it? Maybe that will help us help you. Also, why are you recording at 64bit? If i remember correctly, you are merely making bigger files, but I don't think you are increasing the quality.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:18 PM   #130
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Billoon-I'm not using any live recordings it's all constructs and mostly midi, but the 64 bit wav setting with 384 pt showed a great improvement, so thanks!
Ah, if your going to be resampling, why not use the highest option then too?
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:46 AM   #131
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Thanks folks. Yeah the volume reductions did seem to yield an improvement in overall quality. I am not sure whether resampling applies to the rendering process with the midi track compression to MP3. It is a variable I don't know about but I thought I would include it for a full picture.

How do you know whether resampling is needed and used in such a render? How does it impact on the product?


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Old 05-04-2013, 03:12 PM   #132
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Also, Why is there such a direct relationship between volume level and output quality?

The more I reduce the volume the greater the output quality I am finding. But the high sound quality renders don't stand terribly well next to mainstream material in terms of amplification (ie not as loud).

Thoughts and guidance if you please?


Cheers
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:39 PM   #133
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Billoon-I'm not using any live recordings it's all constructs and mostly midi, but the 64 bit wav setting with 384 pt showed a great improvement, so thanks!

Richie-I think the reason the MP3 compression hits the chorus so much is because it's almost all different elements to the verse, bridge etc. The chorus bassline in particular sounds stripped out when rendered to mp3. Speaking as someone who doesn't know the science well, it would be great to have some dynamic capability for varying the way a compressor applies itself (ie so that it hit freq that weren't important to the sound for instance).
There really should not be any audible sound difference between say, a 24 bit and 64 bit floating point audio file, and there is no point in rendering to 64 bit floating point unless you have a specific need to do so.

By 'live', Billoon is talking about a feature of Reaper that allows for recording the live output of Reaper to a file. When it is turned on, any sound that goes through Reaper will be output (recorded) to the file until it is turned off. Think of it as a secondary stereo recorder running in the background that never goes off until you specifically turn it off.

If rendering to mp3 is really messing with the rendered sound, up the bitrate. At a constant bitrate of 320 kbps, anyone would be hard pressed to hear the difference between mp3 and wav. Mp3 is inferior to wav, but the difference is subtle, and it can only be heard on some material, not all. It is not something that will jump out at you.

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Thanks folks. Yeah the volume reductions did seem to yield an improvement in overall quality. I am not sure whether resampling applies to the rendering process with the midi track compression to MP3. It is a variable I don't know about but I thought I would include it for a full picture.

How do you know whether resampling is needed and used in such a render? How does it impact on the product?


Regards
Unless you were going over 0 dbfs (in the red), what you render should be what you hear in Reaper. Don't go over 0. When you do that, your sound is being clipped, essentially reducing the bit depth. You mentioned previously that your percussion sounded like it is going through a bitcrusher. If you're outputting heavily over 0, it will sound like that.

Resamplinng applies when you render to a different sample rate other than what your project uses. For example, if your project is recorded at 48k, and you render to 44.1k, resampling takes place. You should read a bit about the basics of digital audio to understand this stuff better. Just do a search, check wikipedia, youtube, etc. I'm sure that with a little patience and time, you can find enough info to understand how the basics of digital audio works. Also, there are books available that explain this stuff.

As for how resampling affects the render, that is all up to your ears. And btw, don't be fooled by all of the numbers and settings. Higher numbers does not necessarily equate to higher sound quality. A lot of this stuff is subjective, and you should use your ears above all else, along with a basic understanding of how digital audio works. And be objective about it. Can you really hear the difference, or are you allowing your judgement to be skewed by some number or setting? Do some blind tests. If you are ever hearing major differences in sound quality, it is safe to assume that it probably has nothing to do with the file format, the bit depth, or the sample rate.

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Originally Posted by Narayan View Post
Also, Why is there such a direct relationship between volume level and output quality?

The more I reduce the volume the greater the output quality I am finding. But the high sound quality renders don't stand terribly well next to mainstream material in terms of amplification (ie not as loud).

Thoughts and guidance if you please?


Cheers
On rendered sound levels, that is an issue of skills in recording, mixing, and mastering the recording. Without going into too much detail, getting a healthy sound level on the render is about removing junk from the mix such as boomy low end, or transient highs, taming dynamics, etc., i.e., mixing for clarity and fitting a lot of sound into a little space. The problem there is not a problem of the software. It has to do with how well you record tracks, how well you mix, and how dynamic the final track needs to be.
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:54 PM   #134
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I'm having few of those issues, thought there is one thing i haven't tried yet. To start with the issues:

- Rendered track ( wave 24 bit ) sounds worst then mix, sounds muted and reverb sound seams wetter.
- When mixing with lower volumes everything sounds ok, but when volume is raised within reappear everything starting sounding bit harsh even on lower listening volumes, as the sound would forcing itself to be louder. I'm using limiter to cut of picks.

With the first problem apparently if you record whole track on one pre-stereo buss and then render it it should apparently be fine, but haven't tried that yet.

With the second i don't know.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:09 PM   #135
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I'm having few of those issues, thought there is one thing i haven't tried yet. To start with the issues:

- Rendered track ( wave 24 bit ) sounds worst then mix, sounds muted and reverb sound seams wetter.
- When mixing with lower volumes everything sounds ok, but when volume is raised within reappear everything starting sounding bit harsh even on lower listening volumes, as the sound would forcing itself to be louder. I'm using limiter to cut of picks.

With the first problem apparently if you record whole track on one pre-stereo buss and then render it it should apparently be fine, but haven't tried that yet.

With the second i don't know.
Something for you guys to try when hearing a difference between the render and the master output in Reaper: Render your track. Open media explorer in Reaper (View > Media Explorer). Play your file using media explorer, making sure that the level is set to 0. If you hear no difference between the file playing in Media Explorer and the full mix, then the difference that you are describing to us is not an issue with Reaper.

As for the harshness when raising the volume, well, if you push your music into a limiter, the peaks get clipped off. A limiter is not magic. If your tracks aren't mixed well, pushing them into a limiter will not give you much more volume, and it will sound worse. When using a limiter to get more volume, use it to catch maybe 1 or 2 db. If you're doing more than that, you're probably doing damage to the mix, unless the mix is really dynamic, and in that case, you might not want a limter any way. Just remember that mixing isn't easy, and it takes a lot of practice. If you are hearing other people's mixes that sound well balanced and with a healthy volume, I would wage a bet that person has spent a lot of time practicing mixing. From what you are describing, you should ditch the limiter and focus on mixing for clarity. It might be months or longer before you should even think about touching a limiter again. It's about listening skills in balance and frequencies, in the same way that hearing pitch and timing is a music skill. It takes time to develop. Once you get balance and clarity, a healthier render level will come along for the ride, for free.

Maybe the best thing that I can think to tell you guys who are chasing after louder levels is to use reference tracks, and forget louder for now. Compare your rendered tracks with other music that you listen to, adjusting them so that both sound to be at the same level. Listen to the balance of instruments in the reference tracks compared to your tracks. Listen individually - how loud is the kick, the bass, the guitars, the cymbals, the vocals, etc.? Work on getting your stuff balanced in levels and pan your tracks to take advantage of the stereo field - if everything is coming down the middle, then you're trying to cram too much into that little bit of space. Listen to your render for frequency balance as well. How much bass does your track have compared to the reference? How about mids and highs? How about dynamic peaks? After you get the instruments balanced and panned, start trying to figure out which frequencies need to be carved away from which tracks, and which tracks need to have their dynamics tamed using compression. This stuff is going to take a lot of practice. Then there is reverb and delay for adding space and cohesion. The worst thing that you can probably do at this point is to compress and limit the master. Steer clear of that for a while, until you feel like you're getting a handle on everything else. It could take weeks, months, a year, or more. Everyone is different with different circumstances. A beginner asking why his rendered level is low is a bit like a beginning guitar player asking why his speed is so slow. He hasn't put in the time. That might not be obvious, so don't take what I'm saying as a lecture. It's just reality. Practice, practice, practice. Taking up recording and mixing is learning a whole new skill set outside of playing instruments. Oh, and most important, ignore everything that everyone says and make your own mistakes...lots of them. You won't learn shit without messing up something. Experiment with lots of things. But try and reflect on your mistakes and figure them out. Ignoring them and reaching for a magic box will only prolong your time in newbieland. And of course, if you don't understand exactly how something works, go find out. Do you know how a limiter works, and what it is doing?

edit: because I can't shutup.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:20 PM   #136
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Something for you guys to try when hearing a difference between the render and the master output in Reaper: Render your track. Open a new tab in Reaper. Open media explorer in Reaper (View > Media Explorer). Play your file using media explorer, making sure that the level is set to 0. If you hear no difference between the file playing in Media Explorer and the full mix running in the other tab, then the difference that you are describing to us is not an issue with Reaper.

As for the harshness when raising the volume, well, if you push your music into a limiter, the peaks get clipped off. A limiter is not magic. If tracks aren't mixed well, pushing them into a limiter will not give you much more volume, and it will sound worse. When using a limiter to get more volume, use it to catch maybe a 1 or 2 db. If you're doing more than that, you're probably doing damage to the mix. Just remember that mixing isn't easy, and it takes a lot of practice. If you are hearing other people's mixes that sound well balanced and with a healthy volume, I would wage a bet that person has spent a lot of time practicing mixing. From what you are describing, you should ditch the limiter and focus on mixing for clarity. It might be months or longer before you should even think about touching a limiter again.
Ah, I'm not pushing it in to limiter hard. With some tracks it only touches it and only occasionally every several bars or even whole phrases.

I agree that mixing is damn hard. I'm practicing it now for 2 years, and finally just starting getting better at it. It's just my understanding is that until i hit the pick everything should sound ok even not mixed. For example the track's loudest pick is at around -40db, and let's say I will up it by +35db and I lower the monitors volume to closely match the volume of track from before rising its volume. I can hear harshness! Mathematically I shouldn't that is my guess!

As for the first thing, I will try that.
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:59 PM   #137
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Ah, I'm not pushing it in to limiter hard. With some tracks it only touches it and only occasionally every several bars or even whole phrases.

I agree that mixing is damn hard. I'm practicing it now for 2 years, and finally just starting getting better at it. It's just my understanding is that until i hit the pick everything should sound ok even not mixed. For example the track's loudest pick is at around -40db, and let's say I will up it by +35db and I lower the monitors volume to closely match the volume of track from before rising its volume. I can hear harshness! Mathematically I shouldn't that is my guess!

As for the first thing, I will try that.
Not picking on you, but I think you mean peak, not pick. To think of it pseudo-mathematically, your various tracks' levels add up. If you have a capacity of 110 db on the master track, feeding it with 80 db worth of sound content from multiple tracks is going to cause an overflow. See what I mean? What you have to do is essentially miniaturize everything to fit. Think of the master as a picture frame, and you have a bunch of pictures that must all fit into that same frame. You're going to have to shrink your pictures to fit. This is where carving away frequencies from tracks, and compressing tracks' peaks comes into play. Does that make sense? A track with a lot of bass is big. It takes up more room. A track with a high dynamic range takes up a lot of space. You have to try and get everything smaller to fit into a limited space, giving the illusion that everything is full size.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:05 PM   #138
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Not picking on you, but I think you mean peak, not pick. To think of it pseudo-mathematically, your various tracks' levels add up. If you have a capacity of 110 db of room on the master track, feeding it with 80 db worth of sound content from multiple tracks is going to cause an overflow. See what I mean? What you have to do is essentially miniaturize everything to fit. Think of the master as a picture frame, and you have a bunch of pictures that must all fit into that same frame. You're going to have to shrink your pictures to fit. This is where carving away frequencies from tracks, and compressing tracks' peaks comes into play. Does that make sense?
Yeah it does. It's a good metaphor. Cheers
And yes i meant peaks. Eng is not my first language so i do make mistakes sometimes.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:18 PM   #139
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Brainwork I consider your answer to be a jewel- only on the Reaper forum,

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Old 05-04-2013, 07:21 PM   #140
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Yeah it does. It's a good metaphor. Cheers
And yes i meant peaks. Eng is not my first language so i do make mistakes sometimes.
Hmmm...I subconsciously ripped that metaphor off, now that I think about it. A female engineer (I forget who, exactly) described mixing as a miniature stage. She said that the mixer's job is to shrink everything to fit on the miniature stage, giving the illusion that all of the instruments are fullsize, or something to that effect.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:23 PM   #141
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Hmmm...I subconsciously ripped that metaphor off, now that I think about it. A female engineer (I forget who, exactly) described mixing as a miniature stage. She said that the mixer's job is to shrink everything to fit on the miniature stage, giving the illusion that all of the instruments are fullsize.
Probably yeah

But you know, I do miss that old school analog sound. It was beautiful in its imperfection and everything sounded big because of that.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:26 PM   #142
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Nice all the same!

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Old 05-04-2013, 07:36 PM   #143
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Probably yeah

But you know, I do miss that old school analog sound. It was beautiful in its imperfection and everything sounded big because of that.
You and me both! Maybe some day...
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:36 PM   #144
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Wow thanks for these in depth responses. This is great. The people on the forums and the people putting out free and affordable software and helping others in a largely anonymous fashion across the internet....Really are unsung heroes.

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Old 12-17-2013, 02:44 PM   #145
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Dear Fellow Reaper users,

I also had this problem: in Reaper music sounds good, rendered version: not that good.

What helped: instead of Full-speed offline render I am using the Online Render option, and that doesn't ruin my bass sound. I suspect this has something to do with how certain VST synths are working - or maybe not at all. But nevertheless this trick helped, so I am a happy user.

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Old 12-17-2013, 03:35 PM   #146
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Hello,

It's my 4th year practicing mixing. Reaper renderer make things sound bad and I had no idea why is that just till recently. I found a way: mix in 96 or higher ( Fx just don't sound good at anything below 96 ), then record the all tracks live on to another track ( is it called bounce track, sum track?; not sure ) and then you can safely render in to whatever format you want. That said, it looks to me that it makes big difference only if your mixes are decent ( as not muddy and balanced).

Funny fact: my mixes significantly improved since I've switched from mackie mr8mk2 as my main monitors to my secondary speakers Alesis M1Active 320's ( they're like, what, 3,5 inches! XD ).
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Old 01-27-2014, 03:41 PM   #147
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Default WAVE64

Since Reaper added the option: Allow large files to use WAVE 64 (which is checked by default?) my "renderings" having been "breathing" in and out like I have some type of super over-compression.

When I play the mixes through my studio monitors, they sound fine.
After I render, they sound hideous.

I researched into WAVE 64 today and, after review, I decided to uncheck the WAVE 64 box. I rendered the file, brought it up on Windows Media Player (under Windows 8 64bit) and it was just as butt kickin as when I listen to it "raw" within Reaper.

I don't care WHAT anyone says, WAVE 64 DEFINITELY uses some type of compression algorithm that screws up the rendering process.

Hope this helps.
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Old 01-27-2014, 08:37 PM   #148
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I apologize I have not read the three pages of this thread....

I also experience this to. I'm no pro by any means but I do know what I'm doing to very good extent. My room is lightly treated at home an I mix on NS10's an VXT6's that I'm very familiar with. I also use HR824's along with another set of NS10's at a friend's professional studio that I work at very frequently. Mix sounds great at home and the studio, after rending to Dropbox and listening back on any other commercial source, ie stereo, phone, computer speakers etc, etc, it's sound terrible. The Studio uses PT and I don't have this issue when bouncing down??? It utterly confuses me......

I will be back to read this entire thread....
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Old 01-28-2014, 03:36 AM   #149
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OK, I had a problem similar to is at one point, I found that I had applied effects during tracking, and then on mixing they were being applied again, it's important to turn them off when mastering or rendering. Also, if you render effects to a new take, if the effect isn't switched off it will also reapply itself to that take. Also, if you are creating effects sends going to another track, the reverb on that track when rendering will be added again through the track send if you don't turn it off. This may not be your problem, but it thought it worth mentioning anyway, as it's always good to check all your effects settings before mastering to make sure nothing is being duplicated.

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Old 02-09-2014, 06:16 PM   #150
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Default Theory: Resample mode is not being applied to render

I have been scouring the internet looking for a solution to this problem, and I have found none. I registered specifically to add my findings regarding this issue.

I have been using Reaper (mostly) without problems for a few years now. I record at 96 kHz, 24 bit. I tend to render to 44.1 kHz 16 bit when sending files to people. I do this conversion at render time, through the Reaper render dialog.

I believe the problem being described here is an INTERMITTENT problem. I upgraded to version 4.591 recently and found that my rendered files sounded wrong--they lacked punch, and sounded sort of "phased out", like many of you are describing. I rendered the same file using every combination of settings in the render dialog. The issue is the sample rate conversion. If I render to a file using the same sample rate as I used to record (96 kHz), it sounds fine. If I set the sample rate to 44.1, it sounds like trash, REGARDLESS of the resample mode (I rendered using each one). It seems to me that during render, there are some set of conditions that occur to cause Reaper to render the file WITHOUT applying the resample algorithms.

Some observations:
1. Rendering to a lower sample rate has always worked for me in the past, so this seems like an intermittent (conditional) issue.
2. The rendering time remained constant no matter what resampling mode I used (linear or extreme), which makes me think they aren't being applied at all.
3. The bigger the delta in the sampling rate, the worse the sound will be. For example, with 96 kHz source material, 48 kHz render sounds better than 44.1 kHz.

I also did online and 1x offline renders, using wav, aiff, and mp3. These variables do not make a difference.

Has ANYONE else here experienced this, and does anyone in the world know if there is a way to get it working?
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Old 02-09-2014, 06:36 PM   #151
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Default Uh... fixed it?

Check this out. I hope this works for other people...

Open the project settings (File->Project Settings). Set the sample rate to what is recorded in your project (this is in the upper right hand corner above the timeline). Check the box next to the sample rate value. Render again and see if it's any different.

I think Reaper uses this value in the project settings to determine what resample mode ought to be applied at render time... but in this case it was using an incorrect value. When I opened my project settings, the check box was unchecked and the value said 44.1 kHz, even though my recorded material is 96 kHz 24 bit.
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Old 02-16-2014, 03:06 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
dub3000 probably had it right with his first guess. If your rendered mix doesn't sound like playback, it's usually because something in your project is being improperly routed direct to hardware output.

Most of the time, you want all of your tracks to end up in the master, and only the master track gets routed to hardware output. (There are exceptions, monitor mixes and so on, but they are for specific situations.) You want to hear exactly what you are mixing on the master.

I suggest going through the IO setup for each track and looking for any sends to hardware output, and removing those sends.
If you place a few Mastering Fx in the Master channel as inserts, will the output from them send to hardware output ?
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:27 PM   #153
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Default Problem Solved ! (for me anyway)

OK ...... I've found my answer ! It has nothing to do w/ ASIO, or settings within Reaper. It has to do with bypassing the windows audio stack by using any decent outboard audio device. I realize this is not profound amazing news to most of U who are experienced w/ high end production ! U can play your rendered mixes thru just about any media player as long as it bypasses the windows sound software & hardware. I plug in my trusty Behringer UCA-202 interface, select it as my default device & I AM HAPPNIN' !
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:31 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by thfox View Post
OK ...... I've found my answer ! It has nothing to do w/ ASIO, or settings within Reaper. It has to do with bypassing the windows audio stack by using any decent outboard audio device. I realize this is not profound amazing news to most of U who are experienced w/ high end production ! U can play your rendered mixes thru just about any media player as long as it bypasses the windows sound software & hardware. I plug in my trusty Behringer UCA-202 interface, select it as my default device & I AM HAPPNIN' !
I am glad that you figured this out! Having experience or none at all doesn't mean anything sometimes, everyone has these "duh" moments. It's always the simple answers to things that elude us, for sure! I have had my on-board audio drivers disabled on my main DAW for so long, I forget that this can cause issues like yours. Nice work sussing that out!
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Old 07-13-2014, 10:57 PM   #155
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Default My experience w the OP's situation

When I first started using Reaper I noticed that things would distort and sound bad especially after adding some plugins. Compared to the rest of the computer's audio output Reaper is way hotter. Regardless of listening environment and sample rates RENDER did at one time not ever equal what I heard when I hit play (crud in the mix & oversaturated upon render.)

NOW, I don't have this problem anymore, though I can't claim I really fixed anything. Two things have changed:

The most important being that I started mixing "in the green," meaning never let your tracks hit yellow or red on the meters... MASTER included at first until you can bring up the overall volume with strict control in the end. I like loudness or limiter plugs on the end of the master channel to bring the volume up to par, find one you love. This eliminates a lot of potential "digital-y" drive in the mix and apparently the rendering process (not that I know why, but certainly experienced this first hand).

Secondly I now have 16gig of fast RAM w a collection of plugins I can trust to work. Plugs can sometimes be the culprit.. especially if they are older than Reaper 4.x.

In a way I am still not sure that my render is precisely equal to playback, but I love my rendered files enough to pump 'em to peeps... benchmark met! I see the OP found an OpSys thing.. so I guess this was different. You can always drop your bounce into a track and bypass the parent send and send to your hardware so you can A/B... in fact there is a checkbox to have Reaper do it for you (you still make the sends).

Happy Mixing
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:15 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logikmtr View Post
Check this out. I hope this works for other people...

Open the project settings (File->Project Settings). Set the sample rate to what is recorded in your project (this is in the upper right hand corner above the timeline). Check the box next to the sample rate value. Render again and see if it's any different.

I think Reaper uses this value in the project settings to determine what resample mode ought to be applied at render time... but in this case it was using an incorrect value. When I opened my project settings, the check box was unchecked and the value said 44.1 kHz, even though my recorded material is 96 kHz 24 bit.
I'm using Reaper V4.731, and have found that the exact same situation that LOGIKMTR has described has fixed my sound quality issues I was having when comparing a rendered track to the live mix.
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Old 12-03-2014, 08:52 PM   #157
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I have seen some interfaces/audio cards that do not change sample rates from a message from a DAW, so is it possible that this is the case? Maybe it has to do with your specific audio card and you need to set the rates on the cars manually.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:06 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by liquidsonics View Post
In Reverberate LE this can happen, if you render at a higher sample rate to the project rate you'll find the convolved audio to be louder than it was during play-back. This is a side-effect of convolution with resampled IRs (you resample to match the higher rate, add more samples in the IR, and then you get more energy in the output which corresponds to a louder sound). I (today, 2 hours ago as of writing) added an option in Reverberate (full version) to compensate for this effect (SIR has had it for a while so this is me catching up here). I may add it to LE if the donation rates pick up.

Matt
ps. If dub3000 would like to elaborate on 'buggy as hell' I'll happily look into any fixes that may be needed. Reverberate or Reverberate LE are natively coded, no SE involved at all.
I am a bit late to this discussion, as it only became relevant to me recently.

Wow, this really shed so much light for me. I had made so many assumptions that rendering offline would give me exactly the same result, I guess If I overcome the processor utilisation of higher sampling rates by freezing, maybe this helps

I wonder if there are any significant differences in plugins between realtime mixdowns and offline mixdowns.

Definitely I appreciate that mixing at a different sample rate would introduce changes, filtering accuracy, aliasing reduction etc, to my ears the end result just sounds more solid, i.e real. believable. cleaner. especially with effects.
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Old 12-18-2014, 10:38 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by ugly_guitar_guy View Post
Yes, this is correct. It sounds completely different played back on Media Player or iTunes on the SAME speakers, even though it sounds great in Reaper. I understand that the monitors that I have aren't that great, but I would hate to be in a situation where I get different monitors just to end up with the same problem in the end. I'll post a pic of my export screen when I get home and see if there's something that you guys might catch that I am missing.
Many years ago on several occasions over many years it was a revelation for me to discover that Windows Media Player includes very subtle enhancement to the audio. Its definitely not a transparent audio player.

The difference you hear is quite true.

Much investigation revealed that the Windows audio subsystem is the culprit and the Windows Player contributes some mojo of its own.

To reduce this you should use a clean player such as Foobar which plays cleaner even through the Windows subsystem.

Furthermore using Foobar with an ASIO driver on an interface that has native ASIO drivers (not ASIO4ALL which is simply a bridge to the windows audio subsystem) provided the closest audio to the experience in Reaper real time playback.

A few more things I would recommend.

1. When Reaper plays back, audio has to be downsampled from its internal 64 bit to a 24 bit audio stream at some point in time before it exits the audio system, as most sound cards will not play anything higher than 24 bit. If the final destination e. a 16 bit CD or WAV format. this is a major source of the discrepancy you are hearing. You listen in 24 bit, while you then ask Reaper to convert at mixdown to a 16 bit file. Definitely in my experience these two representations do not exactly sound the same. How do I describe this. A certain detail is lost in the translation. A workaround would be to have a 16 bit dithering plug in at the end of the mastering bus, so that what you are hearing had already lost its 24 bit detail. i.e you are mixing with the final end in sight. The concept is similar to :

a) using a realtime mp3 coder/decoder while mixing so that you "hear" what the end user hears and this influences your mix decisions.

An example here:

http://www.sonnoxplugins.com/pub/plu.../pro-codec.htm

b) referencing on small speakers.

c) placing some mastering plugins on the bus so you "mix into them" and have some idea of what the mastering engineer is likely to apply. I.e you mix with the end in sight.


2. For the final mixdown, I would suggest you also export at the same frequency as your playback, and exactly the same bit depth or at least 24 bits, same as your audio interface. if mixing at 44 KHz the output would be at least 44.1Khz and 24 bits without any noise shaping by Reaper or with a dither to 24 bit dither as the last item on the master bus, to avoid Reaper making changes. Then use a high quality sample rate converter to dither to 16 bit. SOX I hear is a good example, or R8Brain. While Reaper does a good job, it cannot be the best at everything, so lets let it do its job, mix, sequence. nothing more. and leave sample rate conversion to better tools.

3. Similarly if you are using audio files which you did not record at you mix session sampling rate or bit depth, use an external sample rate converter to create appropriate versions of these files to avoid Reaper applying its own sample rate algorithms.

A bit belated but hope you get to read this and it helps
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Old 12-18-2014, 11:09 AM   #160
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Reaper does not downsample to play back at 24bit. 64bit floating point is not a conversion. Read up on this, you are somewhat correct about some of your info but not that. I unfortunately am out the door right now and have no time to delve into this, but I felt compelled to add some input.

Here's a start though:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth

Also, sample rate conversion has nothing to do with dithering. Dithering is when you are changing bit depth. Reaper actually does a great job at both, I have done some extensive testing with this and have recently ditched R8Brain and Sox for sample rate conversion (the files nulled to a ridiculous low level). But Dithering is a completely different thing with completely different requirements and times it's needed. You have some awesome and accurate info in your great post, but you are also giving out some misleading info.
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