Old 12-08-2014, 03:00 PM   #41
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Not trying to blow things up, rather deflate . Karbo stroke out most of his post, I'm not sure he's saying his bypass is enabled by default. The thread he links to is about the cancel button (and I agree with karbo in that it should revert to the last quantize attempt if there is one, instead of to unquantized).
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Old 12-08-2014, 03:08 PM   #42
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Me either. See Karbo's post, apparently his was also.

Again, not a big deal by any stretch so no point in making a mountain out of that mole.
Only AFTER the first quantize operation has been invoked on the MIDI data by the user. Then it is checked by default because that is how it is supposed to work when someone wants it non-committed.

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I'm not sure he's saying his bypass is enabled by default.
Correct, I'm not. I'm only saying it is checked by default after you have quantized something previously in that item.
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:00 PM   #43
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I think I get it.

I never checked that box but when you commit it auto-checks, and the next time you open it (here anyway) it's still checked, instead of defaulting back to being unchecked. Got it... I think.

I'm not used to opening a dialog to do something and have the dialog be in a bypass mode where it won't automatically do the thing you opened it for, ever, under any circumstance, so that's something kinda new, but again, not a big deal, and I'm sure there's a logical reason for that.

Like I said about VCA's, I don't have to fully understand that, I only need to know how it works to do what I need to do with it, quantize a few notes and keep it moving.

At any rate, I haven't had any issue quantizing stuff in Reaper.
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Old 12-08-2014, 04:22 PM   #44
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I never checked that box but when you commit it auto-checks, and the next time you open it (here anyway) it's still checked, instead of defaulting back to being unchecked. Got it... I think.
I do need to confirm which I will in a bit but I don't think it goes to bypass until you quantize and before you click commit. Once you click commit you can't go back (except for undo).

Now, let me actually test it to see how far my memory is failing. It's very likely I'm missing something due to time since I explored it.


Edit: nope you are correct, bypass is checked after commit.
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Old 12-08-2014, 07:54 PM   #45
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I do not even think it is a bug, itīs simple a low standard or low quality in Reaper, but this is not a problem for me, as I already said, I can do it manually.
When I have some free time, I will try to show drums that I play on a keyboard with small parts that have to be improved.
I will show before and after quantization (I ll tell the settings, as well)
I suspect we would ALL be interested to see your example, since the OP seems to have gone all timid on us.

The more I read in this thread about the problems being experienced, the more I am convinced it is down to incorrect use or understanding of how quantising works - in ANY of the mainstream DAWs.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:14 AM   #46
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Default Reaper project file / demo

link to download rpp.file (Project file) with midi drum and quantization examples.
I also added Audio file to hear the result and dll (plugin) file of drum Computer. Itīs a freebie called XXdr8008 (808 drums synthedit), that I used for the examples (Sound is terrible, by the way, but itīs about quantization!).
I also added comment/text to every midi item.
First and foremost listen to the two drum kicks in the beginning of Loop, they never fit.
Reaperīs quantization does not get me satisfactory results.
And maybe you are right and I just do not know exactly how it works ?!
So itīs up to you to show how to quantize correctly, to make a proper drum groove without
changing the original loop too much !

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ybmid7peb...mMkyocfya?dl=0

Last edited by Giano; 12-09-2014 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 12-09-2014, 03:36 AM   #47
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Thanks! Downloaded & I should have time to check it out later today.
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Old 12-09-2014, 04:19 AM   #48
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I consider quantization as tool to improve not correctly played midi drums, parts of a drum loop (first and foremost !) - isnīt quantization able to do that ?
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Old 12-09-2014, 05:11 AM   #49
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I'm afraid it's not that simple, computers are not reading minds. You have a grid, you have notes close to the grid. Quantize moves the notes even closer or right up to a grid. You may choose how rigid or loose this quantization is, but computer cannot tell eg. this snare hit needs to be 1 beat off while this other one needs to be right on the beat. IOW, you have to play it in close enough to begin with, maybe even input quantize for example.

Also, like in your example where hits are kinda shifting but not consistently the same way, you might be better of quantizing/editing selected notes (right click the appropriate piano roll key to select same notes). This because the moves (the amount of quantization) needed are not necessarily the same for all of them at once.

As for the example project, thanks for making it. That's the way other people are actually able to hear and see what is or is not happening. To make it even more clear, I think just one bar is enough. We don't hear the whole context (song) this rhythm is in, so there's no need for the multiplied loops either. If you could also provide the rhythm manually tweaked to exactly how you would've liked it to come out, that would give a reference of what you were aiming for. There's plenty of music with some odd rhytmic twists, without hearing how you wanted this specific rhythm to come out, we are quessing if some of the hits are intended as they are or not. Sorry if I missed the reference in your example.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:34 AM   #50
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Giano - I suspect from your example that you are expecting quantise to set itself up the way you want it to work without actually telling it the correct parameters in the first place.

In order for quantising to work reasonably well, your playing does have to be at the very least in the ballpark. And you WILL have to set up ANY quantiser so it knows how far it is allowed to move stuff.

An example of this is that if you have a bar or two of notes that are sounding iffy and you want to quantise them, you cant just set quantise at a random amount percentage wise and not specify the note length boundary.
Say you have a note that is behind the beat by 1/16 and you have Q set to 1/32 Q will merely move the errant note to the nearest 1/32nd on the grid, not necessarily where you want it.
And of course IF you have an errant note that us further out than your minimum step, it WILL be moved to either the previous or next FULL step.

I sincerely hope this gets you thinking along the right lines.
Quantisation is a powerful and useful tool but you DO have to fully understand how it works.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:48 AM   #51
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I assumed that I donīt do it correctly and do not really understand why Reaperīs quantization does not work in a musical way, itīs a a kind of mathematic way to refer to a grid only. MUsic is maths is logic, but itīs also without boundaries, free and intuitive - so quantization should be able to melt this two worlds.

In some cases the beginning of the loop does not start properly, so would it be the best to select kick drum only and quantize kick drums only ? or may be onlytwo kick drum midi notes ? (like xpander also stated). I ll try that. Otherwise I ll have to do it manually gain.
I said I had no Problems with Logic Emagic vers. 3, thatīs true, but over 10 years ago I was younger with different musical skills and demands,and I remember Logic always quantized the drums to my satisfaction ?! But maybe this should not be compared.

Thanks for your helpful replies, I played the midi drums not properly with the aim to show what quantization does or what it doesnīt do.
But I sometimes have problems with a proper start of a loop.

Maybe soemone has another suggestion how the get the start of loop done ?!

Last edited by Giano; 12-09-2014 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 12-09-2014, 06:58 AM   #52
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Giano on your project you have the Grid set to 1/2 as below



When you quantize you will get this



Note the grid lines are shown and that is where the notes will go to. Solution change the grid then quantize. Experiment with using different grid setting until you get the one you require you can cancel /undo at anytime. In case you do not know use the "q" key as a short cut. Hope that helps.
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Old 12-09-2014, 07:35 AM   #53
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Forgive me for asking this Giano but have you read the Manual? Check out section 12.20 Quantizing MIDI Data which fully explains all you need to know.

Grid lines act as magnets and will attract a note or notes to the nearest grid line. That is how it works on all the Daws I have ever used.

You might also check out Groove 3 Reaper tutorials. Good luck.
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:25 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giano View Post
Reaperīs quantization does not work in a musical way, itīs a a kind of mathematic way to refer to a grid only.
That's EXACTLY what quantization is all about. Snapping to grid (and perhaps a groove, but a groove is still a grid, with non-equal spacing between two gridlines).
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Old 12-09-2014, 08:29 AM   #55
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Default Complete track / Reaper files

Thanks for this info, Gerry. I forgot this time to set grid to 1/16.

I will read Manual again, but I already did, well..

Now I have done it manually and made a Little track with Reasynth (SynthBass) and a piano (Piano one) in order to show what a complete song with this drum loop could sound like. I did drum loop correction manually.

The Reaper Project includes midi drums, 2xsynth midi, 2xpiano midi (muted and master parent send deactivated), piano Audio (Audio of midi tracks!) and a track with mp3 of the complete mix.

You do not have to download wav file (piano 17,97 MB) if you have a piano VSTi plugin (Piano one or whatever). In this case you could activate/unmute midi piano and activate parent send. I suppose you do not have to download mp3 (1.12 MB) file either.

Or you can listen to mp3 only. (but start listening from the very beginning, if you do not, the beat could drive you mad...itīs pretty strange))
For a serious recording I would use better drums, of course, and a jazzier played snare !

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pdpnj85le...x7Fyz5sra?dl=0

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Old 12-09-2014, 09:18 AM   #56
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I thought quantization could make things easier with more decent results as for midi drums, got to find out a way to manage to work with quantization.
And some of you really think that quantization in all daws works equally ? Cubase quantization = Reaper quantization ! Sure ?
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:11 AM   #57
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And some of you really think that quantization in all daws works equally ? Cubase quantization = Reaper quantization ! Sure ?
As far as a grid and aligning to it, sure, overall yes, that's basically what the word "quantize" means. DAWs may differ in how they try to attack the issue I'm about to explain...

You are running up against what most of us hate about quantization. You can apply less or more strength so that it doesn't move the notes as far but if you want true human expressiveness you can't "hard" quantize. Those two (nice human feel and mechanical) are always fighting each other.

Typically, when I use MIDI I get the best performance I can, then just move the handful of notes that sound like bad mistakes and keep the rest as-is. Especially since I can usually play the drums (via keyboard) and lay a decent track much faster than any other method.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:17 AM   #58
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I suspect we would ALL be interested to see your example, since the OP seems to have gone all timid on us.

The more I read in this thread about the problems being experienced, the more I am convinced it is down to incorrect use or understanding of how quantising works - in ANY of the mainstream DAWs.
Agree.

On a scale of difficulty quantize likely isn't exactly way up there so I can't say I've run across broken quantize anywhere but maybe in beta. It may get more complex with unusual time signatures or something, dunno, but quantizing something to a typical grid doesn't seem like anything any competent developer might easily get wrong and not notice.
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Old 12-09-2014, 10:20 AM   #59
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Quote:
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And some of you really think that quantization in all daws works equally ? Cubase quantization = Reaper quantization ! Sure ?
You're talking "more advanced features". Basic quantize works the same everywhere... but not everyone's more advanced quantize is the same, obviously.

But just putting selected notes on a 1/16th grid? Sure, just like Cubase and everybody else. Beyond that you get into other more advanced implementations of it.
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Old 12-09-2014, 01:09 PM   #60
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might this be an issue of a midi item having its own timebase and being quantized to that, instead of the project timebase?

i'm constantly having to lop off/glue midi items so that they correspond to the project timebase and thereby quantize correctly
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Old 12-10-2014, 12:06 AM   #61
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Often times I also glue midi items in order to loop them properly,
not sure as far as midi items having their own timebase is concerned ?!

Learnt something here, I definitely did not use quantization in a
good way, I always quantized too many midi notes instead of selecting
the iffy ones and I have to check out different settings.
Iīd like quantization to become routine and not pain, though still with
a (positive) surprise effect, cuz too much of routine can get boring !


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Last edited by Giano; 12-10-2014 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 12-10-2014, 02:21 AM   #62
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(grin) And of course the purist answer is: "play it in properly the first time."
As a newbie electronic drummer, I can relate, and to be honest I just spent about 20 minutes last night manually fixing my slight timing errors over a 3.5 minute drum take.

Quantise is always a bit of a crap shoot and unless your original data is really really bad or you are doing EDM, I reckon it is more trouble than it is worth.
More so if you are using loops, as you seem to be.

I have often obsessed over the timing/phrasing of a 2 bar MIDI section for ages, so I can sympathise.

What I found was that once you have tried all the possible permutations of strength and/or interval size, if it still isn't working it is sometimes quicker and easier to just re-do the offending segment.
And of course the more you do it, the easier it gets to spot the stuff that doesn't respond well to quantisation.

Good luck!
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Old 12-17-2014, 02:02 PM   #63
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Default If Reaper does not quantize properly,

...play it once again or learn how to quantize.

Thatīs what I found out after some testing.
Now I know pretty well what to do, do not have to quantize a lot...
here is a very short audio example of quantized "experimental" drums.
By the way, I also tested TDR VOS Slick EQ a lot recently, unique and superb EQ for mastering/mixing - love it !

https://soundcloud.com/giano-riff/drum-quantization

Last edited by Giano; 12-17-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:00 PM   #64
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experimental indeed.

No wonder you have been having issues with quantising.

Might it be an idea to start off by getting comfortable with something a little more conventional before you start trying to quantise this sort of stuff?
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Old 12-17-2014, 04:08 PM   #65
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experimental indeed.

No wonder you have been having issues with quantising.

Might it be an idea to start off by getting comfortable with something a little more conventional before you start trying to quantise this sort of stuff?
Haha :-) conventional is boring, no challenge !
But I know what you mean, of course when you start learning how
quantization works, a simple beat would be better to start with...
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