What mic for vocals do you use?

[cemark]

As I have started recording with Reaper, I have noticed that my current mic for vocals does not give me the sound I want.

I use a Milab LC28 condenser mic.

For some reason I need to hit the vocal tracks hard with the EQ. And still, I can't really get rid of the slightly muddy sound, and I can't bring out the brillians without making it sound like I'm singing through an old telephone.

Or something like it. You understand.

I have read up on EQ-ing vocals and seen on Youtube how people generally do it. But these techniques seem to be unsufficient for me. I also use an exciter after the EQ. That improves things, but does not really fix them.

So, I'm looking to buy a new condenser mic for vocals. Any suggestions?

The Milab cost about 600 bucks when I bought it.

Do I have to dish out that much?

Any suggestions welcome!

[Quest The Wordsmith]

I've gone the AES in NYC at the Javitz Center for the past two times it's been here. When I tell you that I tried EVERY MIC there, I tried every mic there. I even asked a few vendors to hook up mics that they only had on display. 3 mics stood out tremendously. The first was the Studio Projects CS1, which I picked up on ebay for around $200. I beg of you, do NOT judge by the price. I'd prefer that over the "holy grail" U87 any day. The 2nd mic was a swedish mic that I, regrettably, can't remember. It was around $1200. Sounded so sexy. And the last mic (really 2 mics) were from sE. The sE X1 and the 4400a. They sounded so close and the X1 is only $200. Amazing.

For the record, I do Hip-Hop vocals exclusively, with the occasional singer in the booth, R&B style. That being said, I use the Studio Projects CS1.

[Runaway]

I'm the opposite - I will generally go for a U87 and only change if the vocalist or style doesn't suit.

But that is not what you want to hear.

Recording vocals is not just about the mic it's also about the room

Maybe consider looking at the Rode NT1a - the Rode mics are anything but muddy and very reasonably priced.

It is always good to try before you buy so try and borrow or hire one so that you can try it (which ever mic you decide to look at) in your own environment

[cemark]

Anyone tried the ADK A-51?

[Adrenochrome]

Originally Posted by cemark

For some reason I need to hit the vocal tracks hard with the EQ.

Any suggestions welcome!

For pop/rock/rap this is entirely normal. Especially if you're close enough to the mic to get proximity effect. The sound we're used to in those genres is nothing like "natural."

I have a drawer full of mics, and on all of them, by the time the track is done, there is a highpass maybe as high as 250Hz, a low-shelf cut maybe around 500Hz, a big boost around 700Hz and a high shelf boost around 2k on the vocal EQ. And some harmonic distortion from a compressor (or guitar amp). And maybe some exciter. Even with a "super bright/harsh" Rode NT1A. When I mix other people's tracks, the EQ doesn't end up being that much different other than the narrow notches to tame the unpleasant resonances where everyone's head is a little different.

You have a good mic. Develop your ears and take the time to learn how far you need to be from it for it to work best, and what "corrections" it and your voice needs to sound their best.

(Lately I've been getting results I really like from a $29 omni. Go figure...)

Oh, one more thing... Your vocal reverbs. They invariably need some bass and low-mids EQ'd out of them too.

[dmoss74]

i have had a studio projects c1 ldc for years, and it works very well for my project studio work (no pro, here). i also will borrow a freind's u87 from time to time. it is the quid pro quo for having found him a great deal on one years ago.

i just got an audio technica at4040, mainly for acoustic guitar, but i'll be trying that one out too.

[grinder]

I have looked for a mic for ages and ended up with a Charter Oak SA538.
Empathizes with my humble vocals in a plus fashion I reckon. This will be my main vocal mike from here on in.
I am not a great singer I am pretty certain the mike can be heard on my voice on "Footsteps to the Sun" (CD Baby and others) in the song song "Hunger finds us all".
I listened to a lot of vocal mike samples before a purchase.
It is a torrid time buying a mike that will suit indeed.
Although that mike costs more I reckon it will be with me until the end.

Grinder

[G-Sun]

Great mic + crappy room = crappy recording
Mediocre mic + good room = good recording

[cemark]

Originally Posted by Adrenochrome

For pop/rock/rap this is entirely normal. Especially if you're close enough to the mic to get proximity effect. The sound we're used to in those genres is nothing like "natural."

I have a drawer full of mics, and on all of them, by the time the track is done, there is a highpass maybe as high as 250Hz, a low-shelf cut maybe around 500Hz, a big boost around 700Hz and a high shelf boost around 2k on the vocal EQ. And some harmonic distortion from a compressor (or guitar amp). And maybe some exciter. Even with a "super bright/harsh" Rode NT1A. When I mix other people's tracks, the EQ doesn't end up being that much different other than the narrow notches to tame the unpleasant resonances where everyone's head is a little different.

You have a good mic. Develop your ears and take the time to learn how far you need to be from it for it to work best, and what "corrections" it and your voice needs to sound their best.

(Lately I've been getting results I really like from a $29 omni. Go figure...)

Oh, one more thing... Your vocal reverbs. They invariably need some bass and low-mids EQ'd out of them too.

Thanks! I have been thinking along those lines, as well. Maybe my mic is actuall pretty OK? I read on the web people are vera satisfied with them, especially for vocals. So, some user error is obviously present.

It's just that I figured, if I have to hit the EQ so hard, something is not right. And my first assumption was the mic.

Now, I understand there are other variables. Room acoustics. EQ know-how. Reverb settings. Etcetra.

Thank you, everybody for your input! I'll keep on reading, learning and experimenting.

[Coachz]

I have a crappy room and get amazing recordings. The trick is that the room is very large 30'x35' and has high ceilings. It has zero acoustical treatment and if you clap your hands you get echo. BUT, you don't get early reflections where the energy is. So, i record close up with vocals and in stereo with CADAUDIO 8000 and 7000 in mid side configuration and the result is stunning. I use Voxengo MSED to keep it all on one stereo track and that makes editing simple. I add reverb to taste and when I solo vocals without reverb the room is insignificant. I have considered spending a few thousand to treat the room but I don't have any problems in my recordings to warrant it. I love the CadAudio and Studio Projects mics.

Checkout Princess and Wonderful tonight on the Solo tab here:
http://sunriverstudios.com/music.php

[cemark]

How should the recording room be ideally?

I use my small office (about 3 by 4 meters, eh ... 9 by 12 feet), which has no dampening materials. Big no-no?

[barefaced]

Very difficult to say.
Normaly I would say lesser reflecions for better sounding recordings. But it depends on your personal taste. If your office is full of bookshelfs and carpets it may be not a problem but if only a desk and a chair are in this room you may have to much reflections.

I had the same problem a time ago. I had to record vocals in a room with unpleasent reflections. With a condenser mic this room added a dull/muddy sound to the vocal tracks and I had no chance to correct this with EQ, etc.
So I rerecord the vocals with a cheap dynamic mic (Sennheiser E835 S). The room is not so present with this dynamic mic and the tracks sounded much better at all.

[Quest The Wordsmith]

Originally Posted by dmoss74

i have had a studio projects c1 ldc for years, and it works very well for my project studio work (no pro, here). i also will borrow a freind's u87 from time to time. it is the quid pro quo for having found him a great deal on one years ago.

i just got an audio technica at4040, mainly for acoustic guitar, but i'll be trying that one out too.

For the record, the C1 and the CS1 are different mics with totally different sounds. I owned a C1 before the CS1 and found the C1 to be a bit harsh for my taste. Others compare it to the U87. I never heard the similarity.

[Bristol Posse]

I like a mic with multi patterns so you can try out different polar patterns with the flick of a switch or turn of a dial to see what works best both in terms of how it effects the frequency response of the mic, what kind of ambience you get and noise rejection

unless you are in a 8 x 8 x 8 unfurnished tin box, I don't think room sound is something you need to be afraid of. There's also nothing to say that you have to track in the same spot you mix in. plug into a lap top or a mobile recording device like a zoom and try different rooms to see if you get a better sound

I have minimal treatment for tracking because I don't want a dead space to track in. it just sounds....well dead and unnatural and I'd rather have imperfect real ambience than fake reverb
I add more treatment at mix time to control the space but a good mixing space isn't the same as a good tracking space

Mic choice really is personal preference and is going to depend a lot on the timbre of your voice and the sound you are trying to get down on (virtual) tape. Impedance of the mic vs inputs can make a subtle difference too.
For example I really didn't like the TLM102 which has a very low output impedance (50 ohm) until I plugged it into a pre that allowed me to change the input impedance to 300 ohms vs 2k ohms on my desk and interface. It didn't sound so strident and now it's my favorite on acoustic guitar most of the time. but if I didn't have a pre with variable impedance, i probably wouldn't be using that mic at all

Right now I'm really digging the MA300 by Mojave on vox

Having said all of that...Performance is key

For the longest time I couldn't figure out why when playing out live I got better vocals than in the studio. I even tried using the same SM58 i use at shows in the studio and no dice
Had nothing to do with mics or pre's, it was just all the excitement, the crowd, energy, adrenaline and maybe a couple of beers at a live show vs the rather sterile environment in a studio
Try to find a way to put yourself under some pressure and make a session exciting and stimulating and usually your performance gets better too and so your sound gets better regardless of the mic

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by cemark

How should the recording room be ideally?

I use my small office (about 3 by 4 meters, eh ... 9 by 12 feet), which has no dampening materials. Big no-no?

Read up on studio construction.
That's the ideal recording rooms.

I guideline for homerecorders are:
- Bigger is better
- More absorption is better
- Make plenty of basstraps.
- Treat your reflection-points

Tricks for dealing with bad room are
- Close-micing
- Use dynamic mics

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by cemark

As I have started recording with Reaper, I have noticed that my current mic for vocals does not give me the sound I want.

I use a Milab LC28 condenser mic.

Have you considered the space you're recording in? Are you recording the vocals in as dead a space as you can possibly get? Are you using any kind of vocal booth at all, or any other deadening material?

You may just be getting a really high fidelity recording of an acoustically bonkers space.

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by cemark

How should the recording room be ideally?

For vocals, as dead as Lincoln's grandma.

[grinder]

There are plenty of examples of varied microphones even the likes of the SM58 and earlier models where the singer sounds great.
Have a look and listen on utube to some of the fantastic vocalists in the early days with huge vocal presentation were the mic is very humble.
I recorded my last album in my studio which was 2metres x2metres a sloping ceiling (an attic room). Were it won for me is that it was full of equipment books and shelves, a 600 ml working space my bass just fitted.

Grinder

"Footsteps to the Sun".

[Coachz]

with small rooms you want to remove near reflections so make a soundbooth around your mic with moving quilts to absorb the sound.
http://www.palmcitystudios.com/timob...oundbooth.html

Originally Posted by cemark

How should the recording room be ideally?

I use my small office (about 3 by 4 meters, eh ... 9 by 12 feet), which has no dampening materials. Big no-no?

[Coachz]

I have a C3 which is the multi pattern C1. Beautiful mic, bright though but very natural. I just roll off highs to taste.

Originally Posted by Quest The Wordsmith

For the record, the C1 and the CS1 are different mics with totally different sounds. I owned a C1 before the CS1 and found the C1 to be a bit harsh for my taste. Others compare it to the U87. I never heard the similarity.

[Coachz]

Remember these were done in an untreated big echoy room with Valhalla verb added.

Checkout Princess and Wonderful tonight on the Solo tab here:
http://sunriverstudios.com/music.php

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Coachz

I have a crappy room and get amazing recordings.

[cemark]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

Have you considered the space you're recording in? Are you recording the vocals in as dead a space as you can possibly get? Are you using any kind of vocal booth at all, or any other deadening material?

You may just be getting a really high fidelity recording of an acoustically bonkers space.

This. (I record my vocals in my small office. No dampening whatsoever). I need to work on this.

And thanks coachz! I found this a cool idea: http://www.palmcitystudios.com/timob...oundbooth.html

Perhaps fix something along those lines?

[jerome_oneil]

You could probably do something like this and not have your wife hate you.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FUlqfgodorwAdg

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by cemark

This. (I record my vocals in my small office. No dampening whatsoever). I need to work on this.

And thanks coachz! I found this a cool idea: http://www.palmcitystudios.com/timob...oundbooth.html

Perhaps fix something along those lines?

Brief introduction to sound-absorbtion:

Blankets absorbs only high-frequency sound, and leaves low and mid frequencies un-tamed. So, hanging up a lot of blankets in your room will give a bad effect with very uneven frequency-response.
You need mass to achieve wanted absorption. High density rockwool or fiberglass is good, best thick and mounted a little of walls.

When starting of, anything is usually better than nothing.
I'd recommend something like this:


+ something for the ceiling.
(You could probably just lay something on top of this construction)

It will have huge impact on your result

[cemark]

Originally Posted by G-Sun

Brief introduction to sound-absorbtion:

Blankets absorbs only high-frequency sound, and leaves low and mid frequencies un-tamed. So, hanging up a lot of blankets in your room will give a bad effect with very uneven frequency-response.
You need mass to achieve wanted absorption. High density rockwool or fiberglass is good, best thick and mounted a little of walls.

When starting of, anything is usually better than nothing.
I'd recommend something like this:


+ something for the ceiling.
(You could probably just lay something on top of this construction)

It will have huge impact on your result

Thank you so much, G-sun! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

What do you think about building it with only two sections, like a 'V'?

[cemark]

Originally Posted by Adrenochrome

I have a drawer full of mics, and on all of them, by the time the track is done, there is a highpass maybe as high as 250Hz, a low-shelf cut maybe around 500Hz, a big boost around 700Hz and a high shelf boost around 2k on the vocal EQ.

Like so (see attachment)? (This setting, plus an exciter gives me pretty good results).

What is the rationale for the boost @ 700 Hz? Is it your own thing, or something widely established/accepted?

Thx!

[Coachz]

Moving quilts are fine for vocals as there are not a lot of lows

[=G-Sun;1371937]Brief introduction to sound-absorbtion:

Blankets absorbs only high-frequency sound, and leaves low and mid frequencies un-tamed. So, hanging up a lot of blankets in your room will give a bad effect with very uneven frequency-response.
You need mass to achieve wanted absorption. High density rockwool or fiberglass is good, best thick and mounted a little of walls.

When starting of, anything is usually better than nothing.
I'd recommend something like this:


+ something for the ceiling.
(You could probably just lay something on top of this construction)

It will have huge impact on your result[/QUOTE]

[Coachz]

Did you listen to my examples?

Originally Posted by G-Sun

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by cemark

Thank you so much, G-sun! I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.

What do you think about building it with only two sections, like a 'V'?

Your welcome
Yes, a V is an easier construction and is therefore more used.
Make eg. 2-4 of them and put them in different directions, especially on the axis with your walls.
Don't forget your ceiling though.

[G-Sun]

Originally Posted by Coachz

Did you listen to my examples?

Yes. Listen closer now.

You're partly right. When the room fits for the content, it's good to very good.
But, when it doesn't fit well, your stuck with your default sound (e.g. Audio Book example).

This is The Reason why pro studios always have at least one room well treated, with little room-sound. So they can add any amount in the mix (or none).

But yes, nothing beats a track with natural good room-sound when it fits.

[karbomusic]

But yes, nothing beats a track with natural good room-sound when it fits.

Agreed. Additionally, the one thing that is often forgotten is that crappy rooms force one to only use micing configurations that deal with the crappy room which is severely limiting of choices. Creative micing choices and anything but close up become off limits because the room is in the way. Fix the room and the micing choices expand exponentially.

That doesn't seem important at first, but once experienced it all makes more sense. Once I fixed my room I also noticed I was close micing less and less and less because close micing sounds like the best sound when its the only choice you have for lack of a better term.

To the OP, notwitshanding the room. Every vocalist is going to sound best through some particular mic. There is no "vocal" mic that covers them all and is the reason it is good to have at least two or three vocal mic choices and you just use the one that works for that singer. If it is just you singing, then you need to find the mic that suits your voice.

[Bristol Posse]

Originally Posted by cemark

Like so (see attachment)? (This setting, plus an exciter gives me pretty good results).

What is the rationale for the boost @ 700 Hz? Is it your own thing, or something widely established/accepted?

Thx!

Just a word of caution before you run out and spend a bunch of money and time on room treatment

are you certain it is "room sound" that is making your recordings not sound the way you want?

take the mic outside where there is no room sound and try it. Is there a "night and day" difference. does your recording suddenly sound exactly how you want it to. if the answer is no then building a booth may not be the answer.

room treatment can help if that is the source of your problem. It can make your recordings sound really boxy and lifeless if you do it wrong. and as with pretty much all things audio there is more than one way to do it
For example since cartoid mics only pick up whats in front of them, I have a Gobo bass trap that goes behind the singer to reduce reflection and comb filtering from the wall that is reflecting directly into the mic.
I leave the space in front of the singer (and behind the mic) mostly untreated except for one wall/ceiling corner that causes some flutter echo that I don't like.
I also record in the middle of the room so I am as far as possible from reflective surfaces and under the highest point of the seiling. sound energy changes drastically with distance and so moving the mic in relation to walls and other (reflective or absorbing) objects in the room can make a big difference
I find in my room, for my taste this controls the sound but allows for some of the liveliness of the tracking room to get into the recording and prevent the vocals from sounding dull and boxy
But again this is not the only way to do it and it depends on what you want to hear. I don't use any reverb in mixing so I want to get a sense of space when I record

How's your mic technique? how much time have you spent experimenting with positioning, angle to the vocalist and so on,

for that matter how much time have you spent listening to your voice as it sounds recorded so you can come to terms with how the rest of the world (mics included) hear your voice, which is not how it sounds to you from inside your own head (with all that bone resonance and so on going on that only you can hear). for most of us it comes as quite a shock and initially we don't like the way our recorded voice sounds and assume there must be something wrong. But no....that's how we sound

Nothing against room treatment if the room is the problem but you seem to be latching on to the first suggestion that involves buying a "magic bullet"

[cemark]

Originally Posted by Bristol Posse

you seem to be latching on to the first suggestion that involves buying a "magic bullet"

You are right. But also a bit wrong :-)

I am scientific guy with many years of experience in research. Not to brag. Just they way I am wired.

But when it comes to this (recording vocals) I have so much to learn. I do jump at anything that might help me to eliminate errors and get me closer to a professional sound.

I am used to hearing my voice recorded. Many years of that.

I am so happy to be up and running with Reaper. At the same time I am frustrated at the imperfect results I'm getting, and at my own ignorance.

So if I seem uncertain, unsure, and eager to jump at things ... Well I guess I'm guilty :-)

People here at this forum are fatastic. You guys are helpful and have nice manners to boot.

I will keep on reading, keep on learning.

Thanks all!

[karbomusic]

You can determine if it is the room fairly quickly by recording your voice then several other instruments etc. while the mic is in position. Then listen to see if the same problem occurs in all the recordings since the room qualities will show up in all of them to an extent. That's actually one of the things that can make a room problematic, AKA the same frequencies/modes being on every track that was recorded with a mic.

In other words if 130 hZ for example is clouding all the recordings you know the room is probably contributing it.

Being scientific and if you have or get a decent/cheap measurement mic like the Behringer ECM 8000 + The room measurement app from Home Theater Shack you can measure the room yourself and get an idea of how it performs.

You can still go a long way by simply using one of those behind the mic baffles which is what I used until I got my room in good shape. I still think there are two major contributors... Mic needs to be a good fit for the particular voice, and the room in which that voice is being recorded.

[cemark]

Lessons learned so far:
1. My mic, a Milab LC28, is pretty good. Whether it’s the “right” mic for my voice remains to be seen (or heard). But buying a new 100 dollar mic, will probably not solve any of my problems.
2. It’s OK to hit the EQ relatively hard. Recorded vocals in professional recordings are anything but natural.
3. Most people seem to advocate a high shelf (around 2KHz) and a high pass (around 150Hz) plus perhaps lowering some of the most muddy low mids. I attach an EQ setting that works pretty well for me.
4. I use an exciter to bring out the brilliance
5. Room acoustics are important in all situations when recording with a mic.
6. My small office has no dampening. This will impact the recording (good or bad). I’m a fan of nice verbs, so I will definitely go for a more damped (dead) environment when recording vocals.
7. Dampening with moving cloths may work for vocals, since they have little deeper mids and base. But for general purposes — I also like to record an occasional acoustic guitar — it is better with rockwool. I will try first with some fabric to see if things improve.
8. Mic technique? I really don’t know what to say here. I do what I have been told in studios: Sing straight into the mic, at a distance at perhaps 15 cm (6 inches). I use the small protective/dampening “hat” (don’t know the English word, sorry), which some say is essential and other say “throw away”. Comments?

Feel free to comment!
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!

[Bristol Posse]

Originally Posted by cemark

8. Mic technique? I really don’t know what to say here. I do what I have been told in studios: Sing straight into the mic, at a distance at perhaps 15 cm (6 inches). I use the small protective/dampening “hat” (don’t know the English word, sorry), which some say is essential and other say “throw away”. Comments?

Feel free to comment!
THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH!

Watch some really good vocal performers. see how they move either the mic or them selves in relation to the mic

Get up close for quiet intimate parts, back off when they are belting it out
Turn away slightly or pull back on breaths, esses and plosive vowels like p and B

change on off axis to control how their voice and the mic work together to build the sound they want to hear

Don't be distracted by the mic but always be in the right "sweet spot" to get the right sound

it's a lot to think about and it's not necessarily something that comes naturally. but working on it can really up your game

It's why it's important to build a good zero latency monitor mix for the vocalist so they can hear how they sound through the mic as they are performing

Also compression is really key unless the vocalist is so good that they can deliver a really, really even performance (super-humanly even) that floats perfectly in the mix all the time
rock/pop vocals will often have one or two compressor on during tracking plus more during the mix and then compression over the mix buss too

[cemark]

After using 2 Reacomps (fast/slow), working the EQ, adding some exciter and feeding my new baby Valhalla Vintage Verb, this is what I'm down to regarding vocal sound (short clip):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOvu6rDEKNI

Next step: Work on the acoustics.

How am I doing?

[SamuelC]

You just don't need a good mic, but you need a good room and a good engineer in order to get the recording down right.

One key thing is room noise isolation.

have a sample of the room recorded with the mic itself.

Use some M/S plugins and use this sample mixed with the recorded vocal.


I call it my dirty subtracting method.

A subtle subtration works great and cut's down on the room noise.


I use a MXL 3000 Condenser and works great for vocals and acoustic guitars.

[jerome_oneil]

Originally Posted by SamuelC

You just don't need a good mic, but you need a good room and a good engineer in order to get the recording down right.

One key thing is room noise isolation.

have a sample of the room recorded with the mic itself.

Use some M/S plugins and use this sample mixed with the recorded vocal.

ReaFir provides a nice implementation of this, and I use it for much the same thing.