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Old 10-27-2020, 09:01 AM   #1
Colox
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Default Reaper displays very strange metering behaviour

I have a got a major problem in Reaper: Reaper makes audio level-meters and their values unpredictable, displaying randomized behaviour and values, to a point where audio meters are nearly useless.

This problem affects both JS and VST meters, and it does not happen on other DAWs using the same VST plugins I tried on Reaper.

If you employ a plug-in level meter on the master channel, and put a JS pink noise mono plugin on an audio channel, the live pink noise will travel from the channel up through the master channel’s metering plugin. If you duplicate the audio channel (with the JS plugin on) to become two identical audio channels generating the same noise, the level meter on the master channel should jump up +3dB.

But it does not. Not for me. Sometimes is moves downwards instead. Yes downwards! Sometimes it moves ~1dB upwards, and when I mute one(1) noise channel, it drops 5-6dB (meaning even below the initial level point). Sometimes it jumps up ~5dB, sometimes ~4dB. And if I hit play, the level on the meter changes drastically, more than 10dB difference sometimes, either upwards or downwards. And if I stop Reaper’s playback again, and try the before mentioned tests, they all react with very(!) different results.

I could use help understand this problem and correcting it. And I would also be very interested you could confirm or deny the same happens for you in your Reaper.

I made a couple of videos demonstrating this behaviour. In the first video, I put a JS plug-in on a channel, a pink noise mono generator. Then I duplicate this channel to become several instances, and as yhou can see in the video the level does not raise in 3dB steps, nor does it drop in 3dB steps when I mute channels, and the level changes dramatically just from hitting play in Reaper. Watch the video below.

Download MP4 "level+sync_weird.mp4" - 2mb size

Someone suggested it might be the noise plugin which behaves dubiously, and I should try the same thing with rendered noise instead. So I tried that, in a new video, and in this new video I also added in tests with live generated tones from both JS and VST plugins, both in play and stop modes. Watch this video below.

Download MP4 "alien_sync_and_level_stuff.mp4" - 15mb size

The latter video shows that the behaviour with rendered noise is clearly different and a bit more consistent, but far from correct. And the tests with generated tones, in the 2nd video, are so off the mark that I call it very disturbing and unreliable for a DAW to the point the meters becomes almost useless.

As mentioned, this happens regardless of what metering or sound generating I try, and it doesn't happen in other editors or DAWs. This behaviour from Reaper is new to me. I clearly remember Reaper doing all this 100% correct not long ago. However, I’m not sure if this is because of some setting I have messed up, or if this is because of some Reaper update recently.

I could very much use help understanding this problem and correcting it, and I would also be greatly interested if you could confirm or deny that the same behaviour happens to you in your Reaper installation, or not.

Thanks in advance for any impressions or input
/C.
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Old 10-27-2020, 11:54 AM   #2
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I tried with JS:Tone Generator copy pasting the track with the JSFX on, and most of the time it worked as expected, with two identical tracks the meter rose by 6 dB. But sometimes only by 3 dB and sometimes the audio even dropped below -12 dB (which is the default setting).

But... is this not a consequence of the two tracks being in phase or not?

If I hit play when the audio is lower than expected, then two tracks reset to be in phase again and the output is as expected.

I don't think it is the meters, as the actual audio I hear seems to correspond to what the meters show.

EDIT: Looking at your video (yes, after I have already replied ) I still think that we are experiencing a phase issue. Only if the two signals are 100% in phase will you get a doubling (+6.02 dB) of the output.
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Old 10-27-2020, 08:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
But... is this not a consequence of the two tracks being in phase or not?
At first I thought so too. I'm not sure what is wrong here, but there is something odd.

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Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
If I hit play when the audio is lower than expected, then two tracks reset to be in phase again and the output is as expected.
That would make sense. However, in my second video, there are several cases visible which I think refutes this idea. There are alot of details in those videos so these things are not easy to spot, for example at 0:38 when adding a second stacked copy of the same sound doesn't affect the volume at all. And at 0:53, when adding a third stacked copy of the sound decreases the volume level to below -30dBFS (my track meters in the video reaches down to -30dBFS). And 0:59, a fourth stack puts the sound back up to the same level as just 1 sound source, and a few other places later on too. Reaper is in play mode when these things happens, so the plug-in oscillators are presumably synced. And I'm assuming the track mute button doesn't disable the plug-in's oscillator(?)

EDIT: Just noticed the Mute button actually does disable the sound generation, and thus the oscillator sync will need to be retriggered when the channel is unmuted.

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Looking at your video (yes, after I have already replied) I still think that we are experiencing a phase issue.
(how dare you post before watching the videos? :P). However, I feel there is something deeper going on here.

But in my first video, I tricked myself. I used live generated noises. I presumed this noise was random and not uniform, so cancellation wouldn't be relevant. It turns out, the damn noise I used IS uniform. So I guess pressing play resets and restarts all sound generator's phase cycle, and thus it would phase. So in this particular case, I used a bad example to demonstrate my observation, plainly put.

But then, when I use rendered noise or use play mode (as in first part of second video) why doesn't duplicating the mono noise increase by +/- 3dB steps up and down? The first duplicate increases the sound +6dB, not 3. A second duplicate on top of the first, increases the sound another +3dB, as does a third duplicate. But a forth duplicate increases the sound just +2dB. These intervals are then reflected exactly when you mute duplicates. And this is rendered sound = no phase displacing. I presume at least.

The noise renders in the second video are made from the setup in the first video. Yet, the first and second video volume reactions to adding duplicate stacks - when in play mode, oscs synced (video 0:18s) - doesn't match. Chances that phase discrepancies is the culprit, seems thin to me. But I must admit, still not impossible.

I got several lines of thought and ideas/theories as to what is going on, but I will wait with posting those, to avoid a Wall-of-text. I will pour those out gradually.
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Old 10-27-2020, 09:16 PM   #4
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Do you hear what you see?

What about the levels of the tracks. Cant see this due to your used theme.
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Old 10-28-2020, 07:44 AM   #5
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Do you hear what you see?
Yes, I hear the differences I see, no exceptions.

I'm not sure if I can correctly tell a 3db change from a 2dB change just by ear. That's real difficult to do if you're using just sterile sounds like this.
But overall, yes, I do hear what I see.
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What about the levels of the tracks. Cant see this due to your used theme.
I'm certain the output from each individual channel is the same all the time.
When using rendered sounds, I tell this by never changing the channel volume faders or item volumes.
When using live generators, I tell this by pinning open all plugin GUIs for all tracks, and watching their output level meters on each plugin while starting/stopping, or muting/unmuting, or turning fx on/off. The plugin levels are all the same, and they never budge (except when muted).
I certainly didn't put anything in there which will change the volume.
So yes I feel quite certain channel output levels are the same, and static.

--

Thing is, I got several DAWs installed. The above phenomenons doesn't seem to happen in other DAWs (that I have) than Reaper; even using the same exact plugins. If this is intentional behaviour - and I'm not sure it is - I'm not sure what the benefit would be.
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Old 10-28-2020, 08:41 AM   #6
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cant replicate this

can you upload a sample project?
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Old 10-28-2020, 09:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colox View Post
The first duplicate increases the sound +6dB, not 3.
20 * log10 (2) = 6
Quote:
A second duplicate on top of the first, increases the sound another +3dB
20 * log10 (3) = 9.5
Quote:
as does a third duplicate.
20 * log10 (4) = 12
Quote:
... a forth duplicate increases the sound just +2dB.
20 * log10 (5) = 14

When the tracks are perfectly correlated, it is 6db per doubling. That is not the same as saying “6db per additional track”. It needs 4 tracks to get the second 6db and 8 for the next. The “step” as you add tracks one by one gets smaller each time because that’s how logarithms work.
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Old 10-28-2020, 09:55 AM   #8
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but it shouldn't decrease the volume, eh?
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Old 10-28-2020, 10:02 AM   #9
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but it shouldn't decrease the volume, eh?
Didn’t we already decide that this was a flaw in the testing method caused by phase cancellation?
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Old 10-28-2020, 10:59 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Colox View Post
Reaper is in play mode when these things happens, so the plug-in oscillators are presumably synced.
This assumption I question.

What I do is I paste and cut copies of a track with JS Tone Generator emitting a 440 Hz sine way at -12 dB. Whether I do this in play mode or not, I get the same behavior, sometimes the output doubles (to -6dB) but often it decreases. And the decrease I still think is a phase issue. A quick stop-play resets the oscillators and the audio output is at -6dB. And I'm talking peak values.

Also, as I already mentioned, what I hear seems to correspond well to what is measured.

I recorded the output of the tracks when the audio was lowered by pasting in the new track, but as soon as recording starts the oscillators get in phase and the output jumps up to -6 dB.

Yeah... I really do think all of these things can be explained by phase differences. The other DAWs that you tested must then handle the resetting of the oscillators in the background.
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Old 10-28-2020, 10:59 AM   #11
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can you recreate the issue?
i can't

(the tonegenerator goes in sync when hitting play.)
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:02 AM   #12
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Ah! Now I managed to catch it!

The trick is to have Reaper playing, and then pasting and cutting a new track until the output drops significantly. Then immediately hit Ctrl+R and this is what I record:


Now I am fully convinced that this is all due to phase cancellation.
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:04 AM   #13
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can you recreate the issue?
i can't

(the tonegenerator goes in sync when hitting play.)
Yes, but paste the new track while playing. That way you can get what I just showed in my previous post. I have to do a few Ctr+V, Ctr+X, Ctrl+V before I get a significant reduction in volume, but it happens after a few tries.
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Old 10-28-2020, 11:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
20 * log10 (2) = 6
20 * log10 (3) = 9.5
20 * log10 (4) = 12
20 * log10 (5) = 14

When the tracks are perfectly correlated, it is 6db per doubling. That is not the same as saying “6db per additional track”. It needs 4 tracks to get the second 6db and 8 for the next. The “step” as you add tracks one by one gets smaller each time because that’s how logarithms work.
Damn, you're too right for comfort. I didn't know this. I was assuming the analogue 3dB rule for mono. And I don't care enough for math it seems. When I used rendered noise, I thought the values I got was wrong, because my knowledge was wrong. Thanks, that solves that.

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Didn’t we already decide that this was a flaw in the testing method caused by phase cancellation?
Actually, no. There are many interconfusing parts to my disorganised testing, and I did make this mistake you're referring to, with the noise I used (parts of first video and first third of second video).
But @ 0:38 in my second video, I use live generated 1kHz tones, and Reaper is in play mode. I'm assuming play mode means oscillators are force synced(?). With these conditions ongoing, I enable the second and third stacked tone, and the level on the meter (and to my ear) either stays the same or drops down, alot. Also, when I enable the 4th stacked tone, the level returns to the same level as when I'm using just 1 tone (nothing stacked on top).

This is sort of like what can happen if you start with two identical tracks with tone generators on them, and Reaper is in stop mode. Set the edit cursor to a different position than the first bar of the project, then put Reaper in play mode and press phase flip on one of the channels. If it cancels out completely while in play mode, try stopping Reaper and then hitting "Go to previous marker" (or whatever function you use to return to the first bar of the project). When you do, when Reaper returns to first bar, you will sometimes hear a very clear phase displacement between the two channels. Very audible. But it doesn't happen every time. May have to do this several times to achieve it.

This is a big part of what I've been experiencing and feel confused by. I've felt that Reaper has some form of sync and level issue, that can be easily missed. For example, sometimes when I'm in play mode, and I phase flip one of two identical channels, they won't cancel out. The sound level will just drop 10-15dB or so. But if I stop Reaper, and restart playback, then Boom they cancel out.
This to me felt like erroneous behaviour by a DAW, and I feel certain this behaviour has become a part of Reaper recently, like with v6 or some update thereafter. I remember so clearly reacting to that this is new thing that wasn't there before, that felt like an error, looked like an error on meters, certainly doesn't function in a practical fashion and doesn't happen in other DAWs I got.
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Old 10-28-2020, 12:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
..
So overall, you’re conveying … that when Reaper stops (from playback mode), it can jolt the oscillators/internal sync into re-starting their cycles but from slightly offset phase positions? And this offset is often different from time to time, and can be so wide/large that even an almost complete cancellation will occur – if there are two identical sounds?

If so, that’s … kindof exotic.

Quote:
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The trick is to have Reaper playing, and then pasting and cutting a new track until the output drops significantly. Then immediately hit Ctrl+R and this is what I record:

Now I am fully convinced that this is all due to phase cancellation.
Thanks for doing this. Though I don’t have anything assigned to CTRL+R, what does that do for you?
Your picture shows phase inversion for sure, frequency and amplitude looks at least roughly similar. So yeah. Hmm ...

This suggests to me, that if Reaper is in either play- or stop mode, and you enable a tone generator – or just unmute a muted channel with a tone generator on - the oscillator won’t force sync up to the sample frequency from the same reference positions as other tone generators (or synths) already have done; tone generators or synths that may be using the same tone frequency (on and off), and this may cause phase issues? And a stop-restart might temporarily change the sonic landscape, if you pasted, cut, unmuted or changed something regarding a tone generator while Reaper was playing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
The other DAWs that you tested must then handle the resetting of the oscillators in the background.
Mm, and Reaper has as its motto to not install background operations. Seems they went all-in on this one.
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Old 10-28-2020, 12:47 PM   #16
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Pasting a track while playing is not shown in the video (the second)

REAPER plays in a loop and the tracks switch from mute to unmute and v.v.

In the video the level goes down when unmute more tracks that should have the same output.

(IT WOULD BE SOOOOO NICE TO HAVE THE PROJECT HERE THATS USED IN THE VIDEO. MAYBE INCLUDING THE USED JSFX GENERATOR PLUGIN. THIS NERDY WAVES PLUGIN CAN STAY AT HOME)
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Old 10-28-2020, 01:16 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Colox View Post
So overall, you’re conveying … that when Reaper stops (from playback mode), it can jolt the oscillators/internal sync into re-starting their cycles but from slightly offset phase positions? And this offset is often different from time to time, and can be so wide/large that even an almost complete cancellation will occur – if there are two identical sounds?

If so, that’s … kindof exotic.
I'm not sure about this... What I try to say is that when I hit stop-play, the oscillators resynch and get in phase and the volume goes to -6 dB.

Quote:
Thanks for doing this. Though I don’t have anything assigned to CTRL+R, what does that do for you?
Ctrl+R is here tied to Transport: Record. I thought that was the default, but I might have added that myself sometime long ago.

Quote:
This suggests to me, that if Reaper is in either play- or stop mode, and you enable a tone generator – or just unmute a muted channel with a tone generator on - the oscillator won’t force sync up to the sample frequency from the same reference positions as other tone generators (or synths) already have done; tone generators or synths that may be using the same tone frequency (on and off), and this may cause phase issues? And a stop-restart might temporarily change the sonic landscape, if you pasted, cut, unmuted or changed something regarding a tone generator while Reaper was playing?

Mm, and Reaper has as its motto to not install background operations. Seems they went all-in on this one.
Yes, that seems to be the conclusion, yes.
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Old 10-28-2020, 01:45 PM   #18
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I don't know why you wouldn't just render the tone generator for this particular testing.
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Old 10-28-2020, 01:49 PM   #19
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Pasting a track while playing is not shown in the video (the second)

REAPER plays in a loop and the tracks switch from mute to unmute and v.v.

In the video the level goes down when unmute more tracks that should have the same output.
I didn't make the videos with the intent of testing and showing all branches of every possibility. I just made them to show and partially prove a few points. I was expecting some people to say "I can't reproduce this" so then I needed to show I'm not hallucinating. This was what the videos was intended to do.

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(IT WOULD BE SOOOOO NICE TO HAVE THE PROJECT HERE THATS USED IN THE VIDEO. MAYBE INCLUDING THE USED JSFX GENERATOR PLUGIN. THIS NERDY WAVES PLUGIN CAN STAY AT HOME)
Sure. There is nothing special about this project but what you see in the video. Only outside thing are the rendered noise files, and all JSFX are Reaper stock plugins - I think. Could be Reapack too. Link to download the project: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php...16706488551770
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Old 10-28-2020, 02:07 PM   #20
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I don't know why you wouldn't just render the tone generator for this particular testing.
I see your point.
There was a noticeable difference between Play mode enabled or Stop mode enabled, and I suspected that this difference was a symptom of the problem I was trying to shine a light on. That was why I didn't render everything.

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Ctrl+R is here tied to Transport: Record. I thought that was the default, but I might have added that myself sometime long ago.
Could be the opposite too, that it is default, but I'm the one who changed it and forgot what the default once was.

Thanks for helping revolve this. This wasn't easy to see through at first. Reaper really is exotic in some senses. I can't say I feel this is a productive functioning. A bit more result of Reaper's motto of not using any background adjustment. Being this orthodox about it means several rather productive features gets left out, that quite possibly would've been all good.
I really did feel I had found a fault, and I still feel that parts of this functioning is a new feature of Reaper, very recent.
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Old 10-28-2020, 04:19 PM   #21
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..I'm assuming play mode means oscillators are force synced(?).
Quote:
EDIT: Just noticed the Mute button actually does disable the sound generation...
And so does copy-paste and whatever else. You can hit Edit to verify, but I'm pretty sure that plugin keeps track of its phase position based on the number of samples that it has processed. There's a setting in Preferences, but by default, I think this stops when the track is muted. It doesn't matter if this particular oscillator just starts over from where it left off or from the very beginning because it's still only ever going to be perfect accidentally.

The right way to do this is to put the oscillator on one track and send it to the others. Make sure every track is on 0db Pan Law.

The 3db thing that you might have in mind is a sort of "squint and guess" range for average levels when none of the tracks are actually the same, but they all average around the same level. Like, if your white noise was actually uncorrelated noise that each started with a different number and followed a different pattern, then it will probably end up averaging to about 3db per doubling IF you measure a long enough average. It's still 3db per doubling, NOT each. And it's never anything to hang your hat on.

Like, if for some reason you can't just put your hat on the floor, you should keep it in your hand, because you sure can't count on the coatrack. How many hats have to hang off that rack? How many drunk guests are going to bump into it and how long does it take before the whole thing just flops over because somebody lost the round of hat jenga? I mean, they'll pick it up and "try to" clean it up. "Shit, sorry." But like the whole atrium is like...

...See there's about a hundred people here, and I don't mean to be insensitive, but from my observances, I feel it's safe to say that there are very close to 200 individual feet here, and every goddamn one of them walked through a whole lot of who knows what to get into their vehicle and then some other stuff to get to our entryway at which point that entire mess of

what who came from where what

got traipsed (yes, I said TRAIPSED) all over the sad thin grey rug. The only thing he ever had going for him was that he was cheap by the yard, and a neutral color that nobody could ever quite object to without looking like a total psycho, and he was fucking long. He was ready and happy to help all summer long when it was just some people in their sneakers shaking off a little dirt. Hell, I don't know what the outside even IS until these people bring it to me! And they pay me to take it! I should be paying them.

Suckers!

But then winter comes and them monkeys start dragging in a bunch of wet mushy nasty crap. Well, it's not so much wet when it comes in. It was cold when it came in, but it's like frozen water and salt which have incorporated all of the other sludge so that when it does thaw...because you know, it's warm in here where we hang the hats...it becomes pretty interesting to both chemists and biologists.

But the rug doesn't fuckin care, man. He knows what he's worth and you're only paying him to put up with a certain amount of bullshit. That ain't my job. I got my part handled.

And I don't care what the rug thinks. But fuck sake, somebody knocked over the rack, and now my hat's in the mud and some prick actually stepped on it! I can clearly see their fucking bootprint, and some others heading off thataway...

So like the only way to be sure what actually will happen when you mix a number of dissimilar tracks is to do it.

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 10-28-2020 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 10-29-2020, 06:55 AM   #22
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here is something from a smallbrained (maybe for the smallbrained, all other with normal brains please ignore)

this jsfx tonegenerator IS acting like ashcat_lt described it.
Usng it in more than oneinstance could lead to this issue.

i made a sampleproject derived from Colox' project
https://stash.reaper.fm/v/40561/Reap...t%20bobobo.zip

there are those folders
with different ways to trigger thos jsfx (an one that uses another tonegenerator for test purposes)

i assume the sweep generator uses a similar way to create the tones

the isues is way more easier to see (i put the js osc on master fx) and hear with the sweep.

playing around with the sweepgenerator on on thing on a REAPER out of the box you will notice phase issues when switching them on one after the other.
if they are switched on and you press play all will be forced to realign and build iup the correct stacked output (lower the mastervolume before)

using the tonegenerator shows similar results.

there is this option in REAPER to 'Do not process muted tracks (muted tracks take not CPU time,etc)' that is set as default

unset this (mine is often unhooked because i do looping with an external controller that mutes tracks if i hit buttons, and this setting avoids clicks) and you won't here the issue anymore.

@ashcat_lt
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