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Old 08-06-2017, 05:50 PM   #41
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While I don't doubt this, C# and .NET have not been designed with realtime in mind, but for "office"-type of applications.
I agree but.... Some of the most intensive server apps in the world run on top of .NET with Native only reserved for stuff like accessing binary trees at the sector/offest level or audio drivers etc. because that is the type of low-level thing native is best at - it isn't really a server vs office app thing as it is "I need direct access to the hardware" thing or an "I need to be a little more fine grained and dangerous" thing but.... The app can have a couple of modules/DLLs that do that native piece and the other 95% be .NET and performant.

To your point though, yes there would be a risk of latency up through those abstraction layers when doing this via .NET/UWP vs native. That isn't because the code can't run fast it's because it's being translated through multiple layers of code.
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:08 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airal View Post
Yes, that is the draw back of .NET. ... Again, the world isn't perfect.
So it's obvious that realtime APIs (such as Midi over BT) need to be offered in native versions (as well) (such as a plain old Midi Device), and applications would not need to be forced (and should not requested to) internally implement support .NET bridging for such inappropriate stuff.
-Michael
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Old 08-06-2017, 10:18 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Some of the most intensive server apps in the world run on top of .NET ... and performant.
True. But "realtime" is not about good overall execution speed but about good (i.e. defined maximum) latency.

With controlling the movement of an engine, a (not necessarily very short) defined max latency needs to be met in any case -> "hard realtime".

With multimedia, a really short maximum latency needs to be met close to always -> "soft realtime".

With server applications for many clients, performance needs to be optimized, so that the latency for each user is as good as possible -> "non realtime".

Hence, regarding a DAW, the GUI could happily be done using .NET, but anything handling the data stream (Midi, audio, ...) needs to be native.

-Michael

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Old 08-07-2017, 05:29 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
True. But "realtime" is not about good overall execution speed but about good (i.e. defined maximum) latency.
Yep I agree.
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Old 08-30-2017, 03:29 AM   #45
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Regarding the original issue:

I just did a little bit of searching and found a software called "midiberry" that might (or might not) be helpful.

-> http://newbodyfresher.linclip.com/

-> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/stor...m-requirements : "Have tested basic connectivity and the app just works. I haven't really put it thru its paces long term yet but I look forward to. I am using the yamaha MIDI/BT adapter with my yamaha wx5 and midiOX for breath controller mapping. even with multiple s/w layers latency is low enough for good response. Good Job!"


Moreover I found the "Yamaha UD BT01 Bluetooth MIDI for Usb" device that would allow for connecting a controller with a Midi over USB interface at the other site.

Moreover there is the the "Yamaha UD-WL01 Wireless LAN-Adapter" that uses WLAN instead of bloototh.

What would be helpful to connect a controller with a Midi over USB interface wirelessly to Reaper ?

-Michael

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Old 02-04-2018, 03:05 AM   #46
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Pipe seems to have gotten this working
-> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....ight=MIDIBerry
-> https://www.instagram.com/p/BewmgRBB...=pipelineaudio

-Michael
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Old 02-06-2018, 11:38 PM   #47
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It would be nice to have it native though, it seems to have variable latency , and not in a good way

Please Justin, please please please!!!
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Old 02-07-2018, 12:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
It would be nice to have it native though, it seems to have variable latency , and not in a good way
This rather obviously is introduced by the wireless technology. (WIFI will be still a lot worse on that behalf).

"native" Reaper support will not help a bit.

-Michael
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post

"native" Reaper support will not help a bit.

-Michael
Probably not... but I have BTLE metronomes that can sync 5 metronomes to Android that sync and never miss a beat so it isn't the wireless technology as much as it is delays in the endpoints themselves such as the networks stack to DAW and back or network congestion which isn't the protocol's fault.

For example, here is audio data traveling wirelessly and handling real-time remote oscilloscope display using websockets and a web browser...

https://youtu.be/8ISbmQTbjDI?t=137
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:10 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
This rather obviously is introduced by the wireless technology. (WIFI will be still a lot worse on that behalf).

"native" Reaper support will not help a bit.

-Michael
Not at all, running it into my iPad I can’t ever feel the latency. Unpairing and then re pairing in windows resets the minimum latency, depending on what midberry is doing and whether it has the focus also changes the latency
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:19 PM   #51
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People use Bluetooth mice and keyboards all the time for FPS games. Hell we use Bluetooth mice and keyboards to control reaper. It’s certainly possible to have acceptable latency over Bluetooth for this

In fact , why can’t we just got a keyboard and stick it inside that pedalboard?

THAT would be a slick project!!!
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Old 02-07-2018, 01:26 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post

In fact , why can’t we just got a keyboard and stick it inside that pedalboard?

THAT would be a slick project!!!
You can, it's just bubble buttons.
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Old 02-07-2018, 03:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Probably not... but I have BTLE metronomes ...
For regularly repetitive signals you can compensate latency via software. That is how time/date synchronization via Internet works.

-Michael
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Old 02-07-2018, 03:18 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
we use Bluetooth mice and keyboards to control reaper. It’s certainly possible to have acceptable latency over Bluetooth for this
.... without any Bluetooth mouse support built into Reaper.
There is nothing but standard mouse support in Reaper, so standard Midi support would work with Bluetooth provided a decent OS driver for this is available.

-Michael
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Old 02-07-2018, 03:25 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
For regularly repetitive signals you can compensate latency via software. That is how time/date synchronization via Internet works.

-Michael
reg:
Quote:
This rather obviously is introduced by the wireless technology. (WIFI will be still a lot worse on that behalf).
I keep seeing wireless blamed as if it can't be performant but it can... My point is there is a conflation that just because something is wireless, it must be latent and the problem, that is not always the case in 2018.

I have a MIDI to Pitch controller also over BT which I can play in real time into Reaper without issue. Then there is the realtime vid I posted which runs off of a $3 USD micro controller the size of a quarter... and I've got plenty of microprocessors et al that I can measure and show that just because it's WiFi, it isn't suddenly unusable latency wise. That isn't always the case but we don't want to dismiss immediately just because it travels through the air.

I'm sure I could build what he wants without needing to be native in Reaper but my time for it is just to low. Full-featured microprocessors are a huge rage right now, if the need exists the solution can be found. ESP32 comes to mind.
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:19 PM   #56
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I'm sure I could build what he wants without needing to be native in Reaper but my time for it is just to low. Full-featured microprocessors are a huge rage right now, if the need exists the solution can be found. ESP32 comes to mind.
This would likely be a good start, I have an ESP32 or few lying around but again, no need and no time right now.

https://github.com/neilbags/arduino-...r/BLE_MIDI.ino
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:47 PM   #57
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There's a guy in the Facebook REAPER user's group who is really pushing the Arduino stuff for reaper control, I'll show this to him.

The expression pedals would be tricky with keyboard guts, but I'm eyeing that new bluetooth Korg NanoStudio thing which seems to run fine in REAPER as donor parts
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Old 02-07-2018, 06:57 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
There's a guy in the Facebook REAPER user's group who is really pushing the Arduino stuff for reaper control, I'll show this to him.

The expression pedals would be tricky with keyboard guts, but I'm eyeing that new bluetooth Korg NanoStudio thing which seems to run fine in REAPER as donor parts
You saw the vid/thread I posted of the one-knob automation MIDI controller I just built over the weekend didn't you?
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Old 02-07-2018, 07:20 PM   #59
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Gonna go watch it now
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Old 02-07-2018, 11:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I keep seeing wireless blamed as if it can't be performant but it can...
Technically, Blutooth LE features a rather low average latency (other than pre-LE hardware). Here both sites need to be specified to use LE.

But with every wireless technology nou need to consider that there are disturbances on the air that can increase latency greatly in some points in time.

-Michael
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Old 02-07-2018, 11:18 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
ESP32 comes to mind.
Unfortunately it does not feature a USB Master interface .
-Michael
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Old 02-08-2018, 12:36 AM   #62
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Technically, Blutooth LE features a rather low average latency (other than pre-LE hardware). Here both sites need to be specified to use LE.

But with every wireless technology nou need to consider that there are disturbances on the air that can increase latency greatly in some points in time.
Everyone considers that, then they make the plethora of stuff out there work.

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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Unfortunately it does not feature a USB Master interface .
-Michael
On the sending end, it doesn't need USB (even if it did I'd just add or switch components), nor does it need to be the only component on the receiving end.
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Old 02-08-2018, 02:18 AM   #63
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Airal has left the building? I am finding this a very interesting discussion, btw.

Sticking to my lounger and a large tub of popcorn, but hopefully getting an education here.
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Old 02-12-2018, 11:01 AM   #64
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Default Nidi Sub

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airal View Post
Midi over USB is not Midi.

If it were, it would not be called Midi over USB.
Here's what the MMA has to say:

https://www.midi.org/specifications/...tions-and-info

Quote:
The original MIDI 1.0 Specification called for using a 5-Pin DIN cable to connect MIDI compatible devices, but today there are many different "transports" capable of carrying MIDI data, and the specification for 5-Pin DIN has been updated.
Here is the Device Class Definition for USB-MIDI. BTW, "USB-MIDI" is the name, "MIDI over USB" is just a description:

http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/d...ocs/midi10.pdf

USB-MIDI is MIDI.

UWP is only for Windows 10. Cockos/Reaper *should not* need to do anything, because even if BT MIDI devices do not present as standard MIDI devices, there will exist UWP programs to take BT MIDI and send it to a standard MIDI port.

If anyone would like to gift me a sweet BT keyboard or control surface I have a Win10 box and wouldn't mind some C# time (yeah I'm weird).
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Old 02-12-2018, 01:43 PM   #65
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In fact C# is really weired for such embedded/realtime/driver stuff
-Michael
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Old 02-12-2018, 02:38 PM   #66
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In fact C# is really weired for such embedded/realtime/driver stuff
-Michael
Depends on what you are doing, 99% of what we need here doesn't require true driver coding, only talking to existing interfaces/drivers. Of course that's better phrased as managed instead of C# since you could write the same code in managed C++ or even managed VB.
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Old 02-19-2018, 04:58 PM   #67
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And here we go, with the WIDI Bud dongle, it shows up as an actual MIDI port in REAPER and MIDI latency is the same as it is on my iPad, ie, the same as plugging a cable in

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfZbSXoB...=pipelineaudio
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:40 PM   #68
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Great !

But it's a shame that many PC boxes and Laptops (including the "embedded" PC I am using for Live Playing) already feature Bluetoth hardware and a pure software solution should be able put that to work .

OTOH, using an USB extension cable and place the WIDI Bud at a distance to the HF disturbance creating computer and as close to the controller (for me this would be the Breath controller Headset) as possible (resulting in fixing the Bud at the keyboard stand), might help to improve reliability "on stage".

Does the WIDI Bud feature a signal quality display ?

Are you still using the Yamaha at the controller site ?

-Michael

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Old 02-20-2018, 01:08 AM   #69
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I dont know if it has a signal quality display. I tried moving the Yamaha midi thing inside the pedalboard box, it seemed to work fine, but I moved it back outside so I wouldn't be nervous. Its still at the pedalboard. I havent tried going thru walls or anything yet. I figure it should work as well as my mouse, so line of sight for sure
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Old 02-20-2018, 08:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by pipelineaudio View Post
I havent tried going thru walls or anything yet.
That of course is not necessary. What I am afraid of is HF disturbance produced by whatever equipment is near the stage. E.g. high power digital amps, Lighting boxes, WiFi, Cellphones, Microwave ovens, Computers, ...

-Michael
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Old 06-16-2018, 01:44 AM   #71
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Default MIDIberry Works Great

Just follow these steps: http://newbodyfresher.linclip.com/how-to-use-with-daw

I currently have my FCB1010 foot controller connected via the MD-BT01 Yamaha Bluetooth MIDI device.
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:18 AM   #72
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Great !

I am still searching for an affordable yet reliable wireless USB "cable" to use with my Breath controller....

-Michael
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Old 03-04-2019, 01:06 AM   #73
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I'll up this thread.
In one of my band I would like to set PC laptop for playback, midi, etc.
I want to share Click track with a drummer. Fo this I would like to use Soundbrenner metronome which has functions to use Ableton Link, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth. Since Reaper has no Link, and sometimes we can perform in avenue without Wi-Fi, so I would like to use Bluetooth capability to set up a metronome.

I've seen this:
https://support.soundbrenner.com/hc/...ws-using-MIDI-
Maybe I'm doing something wrong? But I can't see my iPhone as midi-device. I think it's because I have only RTPMidi (no MIDIberry, loopmidi).
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Old 01-09-2020, 01:22 PM   #74
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Hello all,

It has been pretty silent about this subject, I assume Reaper still doesn't support bluetooth midi on Windows out of the box?

https://github.com/stammen/winrtmidi is no longer maintained. It looks like the preferred way by Microsoft to enumerate and talk to bluetooth midi devices is c++/WinRT, https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/win...cpp-with-winrt

I'm thinking about investigating whether I could write a reaper plug-in for this, but it will likely not feel as native as an implementation in Reaper core.
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Old 01-09-2020, 03:53 PM   #75
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I assume Reaper still doesn't support bluetooth midi on Windows out of the box?
This does not make any sense.

For a software program Midi is Midi. It should not care over what kind of transport the Midi messages are transferred. This holds for "5-Pin", or "USB", or "Network", or ..., or "Bluetooth". (If Microsoft thinks different, they are just silly.)

-Michael
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:05 PM   #76
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This does not make any sense.

For a software program Midi is Midi. It should not care over what kind of transport the Midi messages are transferred.
True. However, Microsoft decided not to offer access to bluetooth midi devices using the old win32 API. You might call that silly, but techniques simply evolve.

Let me state my question differently:
I assume Reaper still doesn't support communication with MIDI devices over the new UWP API?

This blog posts sumarizes some of the advantages:

* detect hot plug/unplug of devices while your app is running
* Built in support for sysex and buffer based operations
* it is multi-client. As long as all apps with the port open are using the Windows 10 UWP MIDI API and not the older Win32 MME or DirectMusic APIs, they can share the same device
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Old 01-09-2020, 11:55 PM   #77
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If there are additional advantages, it might make sense to create a new API for a class of devices. But this does not force anybody not to provide the standard API (here the "Midi device") with the standard functionality for those who don't need the extended. (Many audio gadgets come with drivers that create both an ASIO and a "Direct X" software device from same.)

In fact I feel that some of what you describe is also available with Midi over USB, and hence pretty standard for Midi gadget access, anyway, natively or by using Midi Router software.

I seem to remember that there is some software that creates a standard Midi device form such a silly "Bluetooth Midi" thingy, actually creating a standard "Midi over Bluetooth" gadget from same.

-Michael
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Old 06-13-2020, 06:52 AM   #78
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Not going to lie, I just assumed that Reaper would support midi over bluetooth natively.

However it does seem like someone has got it working...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQOJEazTxeM
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Old 06-13-2020, 02:02 PM   #79
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Reaper supports Midi over whatever, if the standard Midi device driver for that device does support "over whatever".

-Michael
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Old 07-07-2020, 07:20 AM   #80
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The mentioned app can be found in the Microsoft Store at https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/bt...ot:overviewtab
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