Old 08-10-2022, 10:05 AM   #761
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All the mockups and ideas are of course appreciated and add value, but FX Racks are already so perfected and well-defined in DAWs like Ableton/BitWig/Studio1 that unless these new mockups offer something new, I just sort of don't get it.

Even Waves StudioRack as a reference...would give us tremendous functionality if implemented natively.
& FLstudio (patcher).


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I personally never want to see or think about pins ever again - can't think of a less musical, more creativity-breaking paradigm honestly.
+1
I personally fully agree with this.
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Old 08-10-2022, 10:48 AM   #762
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& FLstudio (patcher).




+1
I personally fully agree with this.
The beauty of visually organizing plugins (like Patcher, Bidule) is you can literally see what is happening - a day, a year, a decade later. Parallel effects are quite literally placed Parallel to the main signal chain. Multiband effects are quite literally visually split into Multiple Bands.

Been doing somewhat complicated pin stuff since 2009, and am still absolutely confused about what the hell I did even later the same day, in the same session lol.

I know the pin stuff is extremely powerful, it's just an unbelievably crude way to do a thing that is handled light-years better in many other DAWs, with years worth of missteps-and-adaptations that the Reaper devs could skip just by looking to their current form for inspiration.
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Old 08-11-2022, 02:47 AM   #763
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You might be right, but anything resembling how Plogue Bidule works (with inputs/outputs exposed and the ability to connect anything to anything) would afaik be a universal solution. Not the cleanest, not the simplest by any stretch of the imagination, but still infinitely better than trying to memorize why you disabled pins 1-8 and are letting reverb through on 9/10 lol. Like, wut?
Yeah, the wiring system can be easier explored, but should be comped well structured, else it will look too messy.
Its advantage directly converts to its flaw when setup is big and we need good overview.
Also it takes a lot of screen space and reqire time for building and even more for reconforming. Looks overkill for everyday work.

In Plogue Bidule I see inconvenient bypassing. May be it's just there.

Main advantage of wiring system is a loopback ability.
But it's not a super necessary thing as for me.


I see that rather different things are collected in FX container thread .
Every person talks "FX container", but means something certain theirs. Because all like fx-containers in other daws, but have different priorities.
So I'll try to list features we need:

- visual nesting for plugins (as they are in folder).
- routing nesting for plugins.
- more easier making parralel and split fx-ing, like frequency split, M/S split
- less as possible think about pins, cause human way is think about signal direction, not about connections and numbers. At least for stereo work.
- get all modulation in one place when we can see is any modulation in chain or not and can fast edit it or make new linking.
- get oscillators for whole fx-chain (maybe as a plugin) for linking, not only for each parameter.
- ideally get ability to link plugins on different tracks.

- as all this regards routing, I'd add a point about bleeding side-chain to a parent track. Would be better to have more safe system, when we could be sure that side-chains will have no conflicts any way. And such system should not require excess actions from user. I see it could be dead ended channels on track, which are separated from main bunch of channels.

Supplement if I forgot something.
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Old 08-11-2022, 05:36 AM   #764
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Main advantage of wiring system is a loopback ability.
As a single Loopback in the system needs to drop PDC completely, IMHO this is not a decent advantage. Moreover non-spaghetti GUI designs of course can be done to allow for loopback.

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Old 08-11-2022, 05:43 AM   #765
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Supplement if I forgot something.
also see -> https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=679

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Old 08-18-2022, 04:20 AM   #766
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I genuinely hope that the devs consider this feature request, its the only real feature for me that reaper still lacks. If it ever gets implemented, i would never have to consider using another daw ever again. I guess the question is, since something like this is most likely a lot of work, is the majority of reaper users actually benefiting from it? I'm hoping for it, but not holding my breath
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Old 08-18-2022, 07:53 AM   #767
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^^^ yes much more people would benefit from the incredible routing system that reaper has but otherwise in practice not worth the hassles of pins GUi
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Old 08-21-2022, 03:16 AM   #768
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wow
years later...
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Old 08-21-2022, 04:56 AM   #769
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wow
years later...
Why are you being such a penis
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Old 08-22-2022, 01:54 PM   #770
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The beauty of visually organizing plugins (like Patcher, Bidule) is you can literally see what is happening - a day, a year, a decade later. Parallel effects are quite literally placed Parallel to the main signal chain. Multiband effects are quite literally visually split into Multiple Bands.

Been doing somewhat complicated pin stuff since 2009, and am still absolutely confused about what the hell I did even later the same day, in the same session lol.

I know the pin stuff is extremely powerful, it's just an unbelievably crude way to do a thing that is handled light-years better in many other DAWs, with years worth of missteps-and-adaptations that the Reaper devs could skip just by looking to their current form for inspiration.
how come Justin and Schwa don't see the importance of this while so many people need this so badly?
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Old 08-22-2022, 02:01 PM   #771
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Because there are so many other issues other people need so badly.

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Old 08-23-2022, 04:49 AM   #772
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they could even just expand on the track wiring view that they added a while back and just have an FX wiring view and then have the ability to add macros to the fx list and use the parameter modulation menu to modify the slope and range of the macro knobs.

because i think alot of the complex routing that is done with effect racks in ableton can actually be done with some hard work with the plugin routings its just not a clear way to do it.

I don't think it requires reworking entire sections of reaper. it would actualy make it easier to understand for existing reapers if they implement it in a similar way to how other features are implemented.

I have attached an image of the track wiring window and where i think the macro knobs could go.
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Old 08-24-2022, 03:04 PM   #773
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Because there are so many other issues other people need so badly.

-Michael
we already saw that most people voted for this feature as the most urgent and needed feature in reaper.
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Old 08-24-2022, 03:20 PM   #774
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we already saw that most people voted for this feature as the most urgent and needed feature in reaper.
Why on earth would you put such important decisions in the hands of users?

Seriously, though, no one here has any idea what's involved in actually implementing the 5 or 6 major features being proposed here. Hand-waving about how obvious and simple it is, nagging after every release, and emotional blackmail about how your personal relationship with REAPER is being tested every day that you can't have this one last thing doesn't change the reality that someone would need to do the work.

I am pretty sure that the devs are aware of this feature request (these feature requests). Maybe it's time to take a little break from it. I know I'd like that.
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Old 08-24-2022, 09:51 PM   #775
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Why on earth would you put such important decisions in the hands of users?

Seriously, though, no one here has any idea what's involved in actually implementing the 5 or 6 major features being proposed here. Hand-waving about how obvious and simple it is, nagging after every release, and emotional blackmail about how your personal relationship with REAPER is being tested every day that you can't have this one last thing doesn't change the reality that someone would need to do the work.

I am pretty sure that the devs are aware of this feature request (these feature requests). Maybe it's time to take a little break from it. I know I'd like that.
Yes, we don't know what's involved, but I'll just leave this here.

Scripted (!!!) by one person : https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263622
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:24 PM   #776
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Yes, we don't know what's involved, but I'll just leave this here.

Scripted (!!!) by one person : https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=263622
Impressive, I think, but your point is just hand-waving. One guy has been working for over 6 months, appears to be wrapping specific plugins one by one, and hasn't released anything AFAICT. Because it's hard.

Do you want REAPER development to pause while one or both of the devs works full-time on something like that? That's my hand-waving emotional appeal right back at you. I sure don't.

Despite appearances, I am a fan of many of these FRs and hope they slowly trickle down into the feature set. Especially simpler sidechaining would be a big win. But the expectations expressed here are pretty divorced from reality.
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Old 08-24-2022, 10:51 PM   #777
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Impressive, I think, but your point is just hand-waving. One guy has been working for over 6 months, appears to be wrapping specific plugins one by one, and hasn't released anything AFAICT. Because it's hard.

Do you want REAPER development to pause while one or both of the devs works full-time on something like that? That's my hand-waving emotional appeal right back at you. I sure don't.

Despite appearances, I am a fan of many of these FRs and hope they slowly trickle down into the feature set. Especially simpler sidechaining would be a big win. But the expectations expressed here are pretty divorced from reality.
I've agreed with you this entire time about hand-waving sockmonkey, I did a CompSci degree in University and can fully appreciate how easy (and wrong) it is to wildly proclaim things to be simple when the reality could not be further from this. It's a constant game of Jenga, I can't believe 2 devs are maintaining this code base. It's unbelievable and deeply impressive.

But I do find it interesting when people are scripting this stuff using the equivalent of stone tools, and it's requests that date over a decade, and there's literally zero mention of it even being on the radar (let alone any actual discussion). It just suggests a level of tone-deafness to modern needs, which may or may not be true, but optics lead to emotions which lead to emotional appeals, etc.

Really excited about the above script however, where someone literally recreated the BitWig workflow in Reaper, including FX Chains (with both Parallel and Multiband), and Track-wide macros. With no access to the native codebase.
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Old 08-24-2022, 11:17 PM   #778
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But I do find it interesting when people are scripting this stuff using the equivalent of stone tools, and it's requests that date over a decade, and there's literally zero mention of it even being on the radar (let alone any actual discussion). It just suggests a level of tone-deafness to modern needs, which may or may not be true, but optics lead to emotions which lead to emotional appeals, etc.
I actually think the REAPER API is more than stone tools in terms of its ability to do stuff, but obviously it's not the same as direct access to the code.

As for tone-deafness: do you know any developers who comment on stuff they aren't working on? I don't. That's "the right way" to handle feature requests -- otherwise you are setting up expectations, which will inevitably backfire both for the users and for yourself. Or should Justin pop in and deliver a "live with it" killing blow? Maybe that would be liberating for everyone.

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Really excited about the above script however, where someone literally recreated the BitWig workflow in Reaper, including FX Chains (with both Parallel and Multiband), and Track-wide macros. With no access to the native codebase.
I'll believe it when I see it, but yes, it appears to be quite comprehensive based on the status updates. I would like to note that Bitwig was built on top of this idea -- it was one of the raison d'être for creating Bitwig in the first place. Retrofitting that kind of deep structural principle on top of an existing application would be a challenge, even for experienced and talented devs.
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Old 08-24-2022, 11:43 PM   #779
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As for tone-deafness: do you know any developers who comment on stuff they aren't working on? I don't. That's "the right way" to handle feature requests -- otherwise you are setting up expectations, which will inevitably backfire both for the users and for yourself. Or should Justin pop in and deliver a "live with it" killing blow? Maybe that would be liberating for everyone.
This is all completely true; it's unfortunately not followed strictly as seen in the Pre threads. Users regularly "throw in" FRs when even mildly-related features are being worked on. They are very often engaged with and end up appearing in the next dev release! This sets up a situation that rewards this kind of behaviour as there's a non-zero likelihood of success, and consequently creates frustration for the decade-long radio-silence experienced with other FRs because you can point to instances of "rogue" FR engagement daily.

Ultimately it comes down to them working on whatever they feel like working on, engaging with whatever they feel like engaging with, because the company's finances/success are completely divorced from the users' experience given the unique situation they're in. Reaper is, for lack of better terms, an extremely successful pet project.

And while we enjoy mostly incredible value from this unique structure, the frustrations and (almost impossible to avoid) double-standards are very real, and lead to rotting threads like this one. And say what you will about the deprecated FR tracker - it at least collected both the signal and noise in one place with some statistical significance about what users might want/need.

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I'll believe it when I see it, but yes, it appears to be quite comprehensive based on the status updates. I would like to note that Bitwig was built on top of this idea -- it was one of the raison d'être for creating Bitwig in the first place. Retrofitting that kind of deep structural principle on top of an existing application would be a challenge, even for experienced and talented devs.
Absolutely true, extra kudos to the dev.
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Old 08-25-2022, 02:05 AM   #780
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This is all completely true; it's unfortunately not followed strictly as seen in the Pre threads. Users regularly "throw in" FRs when even mildly-related features are being worked on. They are very often engaged with and end up appearing in the next dev release! This sets up a situation that rewards this kind of behaviour as there's a non-zero likelihood of success, and consequently creates frustration for the decade-long radio-silence experienced with other FRs because you can point to instances of "rogue" FR engagement daily.
My 2c here, just because derailing this thread is so satisfying. My observation is not that FRs are regularly thrown in, more usually links to related bug reports, or feature refinements to something being actively pursued. You very rarely see "oh you are working on programming? I have a huge feature wish which is also programming! When can I expect its release?", and in general, that kind of stuff is beaten down pretty quickly.

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Ultimately it comes down to them working on whatever they feel like working on, engaging with whatever they feel like engaging with, because the company's finances/success are completely divorced from the users' experience given the unique situation they're in. Reaper is, for lack of better terms, an extremely successful pet project.
Yep. I think the best way to get some of these big feature ideas implemented is to trick Justin or schwa into doing a lot of hardware MIDI sequencing and editing, or complex sidechaining on multiple tracks. Or getting Kenny to do more production and less mixing. Sticking your finger in Justin's eye after every release apparently just gets you called out as a penis. Which is funny, so on second thought, keep it up!
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Old 08-25-2022, 02:51 AM   #781
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Do you want REAPER development to pause while one or both of the devs works full-time on something like that?
Why to pause?
This is part of the development of REAPER.
maybe the most important part currently since this is the weakest part of it and it can turn to be the strongest weapon.

all of the musicians, mixing and mastering engineers uses tons of fx plugins these days, connecting plugins must be very easy to use, flexible and easy to read.
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Old 08-25-2022, 03:01 AM   #782
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all of the musicians, mixing and mastering engineers uses tons of fx plugins these days, connecting plugins must be very easy to use, flexible and easy to read.
I agree! Buy Metaplugin, Superplugin, Unify or PatchWork.
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Old 08-25-2022, 03:03 AM   #783
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But you guys realize that in the meanwhile the devs didn't twiddle thumbs, but rather implement:

- razor edits
- item lanes / comping
- retro rec

Maybe let them finish one by one?
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Old 08-25-2022, 03:22 AM   #784
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all of the musicians, mixing and mastering engineers uses tons of fx plugins these days, connecting plugins must be very easy to use, flexible and easy to read.
Well for all of those you mentioned its really easy:
You insert one plugin, then you insert another after it etc. It has been done over 30 years that way. Never seen anyone complained its hard
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Old 08-25-2022, 06:02 AM   #785
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Well for all of those you mentioned its really easy:
You insert one plugin, then you insert another after it etc. It has been done over 30 years that way. Never seen anyone complained its hard
hahaha
I meant things like connecting plugins/chains in parallel on the same track
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Old 08-25-2022, 06:23 AM   #786
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hahaha
I meant things like connecting plugins/chains in parallel on the same track
Exactly, buy Metaplugin, Superplugin, Unify or PatchWork. They handle this very well.
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Old 08-25-2022, 07:16 AM   #787
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Exactly, buy Metaplugin, Superplugin, Unify or PatchWork. They handle this very well.
But not JSFX, yes?
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Old 08-25-2022, 07:17 AM   #788
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Exactly, buy Metaplugin, Superplugin, Unify or PatchWork. They handle this very well.
I've got them all...
tons of bugs, slow, and very very bad workflow compare to DAWs that has a built in modular fx routings.
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Old 08-25-2022, 07:28 AM   #789
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I've got them all...
tons of bugs, slow, and very very bad workflow compare to DAWs that has a built in modular fx routings.
I've heard good things about Bitwig.
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Old 08-25-2022, 07:50 AM   #790
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This is part of the development of REAPER.
Yep. (While I absolutely agree that native meta plugins would be a great addition to Reaper, and I did contribute several suggestions here) IMHO other stuff might be more important, which actually provides new features for audio handling, while (theoretically) anything discussed in this thread is (in a maybe clumsy way) possible with the current distribution.

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Old 08-25-2022, 12:10 PM   #791
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Yep. I think the best way to get some of these big feature ideas implemented is to trick Justin or schwa into doing a lot of hardware MIDI sequencing and editing, or complex sidechaining on multiple tracks. Or getting Kenny to do more production and less mixing. Sticking your finger in Justin's eye after every release apparently just gets you called out as a penis. Which is funny, so on second thought, keep it up!
Separate from being of course completely up to the devs to conduct their business as they see fit, curious if you think 2 programmers and a mixer would be a sufficiently-diverse sample to represent the needs of thousands of users in any other situation? Like, again they can do whatever they want, but curious what you personally think about this approach.

That said, to _Stevie_'s point they do come around eventually - albeit sometimes quite late - in implementing what are utility standards in other DAWs. And curiously they'll be at the forefront of things that most people frankly could not care less about like CLAP and Linux support.

I guess the crux of all this for me, is having the most modular and flexible routing system out of any DAW be completely handicapped by an impossibly-unfriendly interface. And the sad reality that the only way this might Ever change is if one of 3 people suddenly takes an interest.
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Old 08-25-2022, 12:59 PM   #792
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In the meantime, excited about the progress being made by talented and passionate scripters filling the gaps of this otherwise legendary DAW.
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Old 08-26-2022, 05:51 AM   #793
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Currently imho, nothing is more important than a good fx routings inside a track for this DAW.

that's really the missing link between so many artists and reaper.

As you can see I post much less lately because I don't use reaper as my main DAW anymore...and that's because I got tired waiting for this feature after 14 years.
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Old 08-26-2022, 08:28 AM   #794
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Exactly, buy Metaplugin, Superplugin, Unify or PatchWork. They handle this very well.
There is a reason why all major “Electronic” music production oriented DAWs have integrated it in some way: ableton live. Fruity loops, bitwig - Because it’s a major thing for their users and they would not have the success they have if they didn’t integrated it.

Additionally is better for several reasons:
- Because those plugins working as plugins hosts are not as stable dealing with other plugins as reaper does. it’s one of biggest priorities of cockos to keep stability with plugins and their compatibility and hassles and is one of their most boring tasks and strengths, and it’s in the DAW level (core) and not a another layer of plugins inside plugins. And just by it self enough reason to be integrated.

- reaper has the best routing system inside a track that I know but is hidden on the not so attractive pins system, but everything is there and with some effort and plan Cockos can “easily” make something that makes this pin system fun to be used. Rackfx from eugeen is a good example of this and he nailed it, and for my personal need would be enough. Unfortunately there is small bugs now and since he and no one is now not supporting it for long it’s not usable.

- there is always hassles about automating in plugins hosts - parameter names get abstracted (different names and workflows to set them, limitations, additionally workflows, etc)

- not possible to use API to deal with the chains and do all creative stuff that could be done with it which is a big thing and a major Reaper strengths.

- Plug-in host have different workflows then inside the Daw: adding plugins, browsing, scanning plugins, whatever.
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Old 08-26-2022, 08:36 AM   #795
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There is a reason why all major “Electronic” music production oriented DAWs have integrated it in some way: ableton live. Fruity loops, bitwig - Because it’s a major thing for their users and they would not have the success they have if they didn’t integrated it.

Additionally is better for several reasons:
- Because those plugins working as plugins hosts are not as stable dealing with other plugins as reaper does. it’s one of biggest priorities of cockos to keep stability with plugins and their compatibility and hassles and is one of their most boring tasks and strengths, and it’s in the DAW level (core) and not a another layer of plugins inside plugins. And just by it self enough reason to be integrated.

- reaper has the best routing system inside a track that I know but is hidden on the not so attractive pins system, but everything is there and with some effort and plan Cockos can “easily” make something that makes this pin system fun to be used. Rackfx from eugeen is a good example of this and he nailed it, and for my personal need would be enough. Unfortunately there is small bugs now and since he and no one is now not supporting it for long it’s not usable.

- there is always hassles about automating in plugins hosts - parameter names get abstracted (different names and workflows to set them, limitations, additionally workflows, etc)

- not possible to use API to deal with the chains and do all creative stuff that could be done with it which is a big thing and a major Reaper strengths.

- different workflows then inside the Daw
You are describing an ideal situation which doesn't currently exist inside of REAPER. I was proposing alternatives which do.
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Old 08-26-2022, 08:42 AM   #796
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You are describing an ideal situation which doesn't currently exist inside of REAPER. I was proposing alternatives which do.
Right! But they are not real alternatives because in the end they don’t work well.
You use them?
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Old 08-26-2022, 01:09 PM   #797
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Right! But they are not real alternatives because in the end they don’t work well.
You use them?
I've used Metaplugin, Superplugin and Unify. Superplugin, for instance, does much of what is being asked for: 4 bands with optional built-in crossover, macro parameters, gain and pan, mute and solo per parallel signal path, etc.

"Don't work well" is too vague for me, though. What specifically doesn't work well?

But honestly, I don't find the pins that hard to use, even when setting up crossover-based FX chains. Of course it's awkward, but it's usable. Would I like slicker sidechaining without needing to drop down to pins? Sure, why not, but it doesn't stop me from sidechaining when I need it. And if I found myself constantly needing specific configurations, I would make some track templates.

I haven't tried any FX scripting of pins/routing with the APIs which already exist. Maybe everything is there already -- seems like some scripters have gotten pretty far. So maybe a "slick sidechainer" is already possible going down that route. Rainy day research project maybe.

There's just an awful lot of noisy pot-banging going on here, and endless, entitled rehashing of the same ideas, every-other-DAW claims, oversimplifications and arguments attempting to justify why a handful of users are so obnoxious about not getting what they asked for. I don't get the impression that it's persuading the devs to drop everything and work on this, do you?
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Old 08-26-2022, 04:15 PM   #798
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Of course it's awkward, but it's usable.
usable?!?? not even close to be usable.


I tried to use these pins many times in the 14 years that I used Reaper, NEVER AGAIN!
No one will pay me or bring me the time I wasted on these pins.

OUTDATED.

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Old 08-26-2022, 11:26 PM   #799
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usable?!?? not even close to be usable.


I tried to use these pins many times in the 14 years that I used Reaper, NEVER AGAIN!
No one will pay me or bring me the time I wasted on these pins.

OUTDATED.

What a great metaphor! The rotary dial phone was pretty brilliant design, a direct interface for a pulse-based telecommunications protocol, and it was heavily in use for over 50 years, because it worked.

I get why pins are frustrating, and agree that less technical, strictly functional UI design would make routing easier to use. But that's not what's there now.

The way I see it, you have a few choices
  • use alternatives, accepting that they also don't do everything you want, but more than what's available natively
  • wait, potentially indefinitely, for some generous scripter to solve the problem for you
  • pay someone to script a solution for you
  • switch to a DAW which does this the way you want
  • continue to bitch and wail and feel sorry for yourself, potentially indefinitely

I bet if you pooled resources with other stakeholders here, you could come up with a reward fund worth someone's time. That would be constructive.
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Old 08-27-2022, 02:44 AM   #800
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There's just an awful lot of noisy pot-banging going on here
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continue to bitch and wail and feel sorry for yourself, potentially indefinitely
This is the feature request forum, and this is the thread where the people who like this feature request say so. And if they're doing it here, not spamming it in pre threads, then that is good and correct. Be nice.
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