Old 03-28-2013, 12:13 AM   #2321
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my Monsters have held up well, and my radio shack cables die an early death, due to inadequate stiff rubber material near the plug. Feeling guilty and need some shorter cables for my cofee table recording setup. Any suggestions? Unable to find the private message utility so don't know if you will see this.
User CP this is where you need to look for private messages!

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Old 03-28-2013, 07:09 AM   #2322
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Check out:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...02&cp_id=10244

Their stuff seems pretty good
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:18 PM   #2323
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Listening to the Hobbit soundtrack the other night thinking the recording sounded good but the arrangement sounded like ass. Seems to be a more common trend now.
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Old 05-23-2013, 02:37 PM   #2324
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I just discovered this thread because I started using Reaper not that long ago.

And I'm not even finished reading it yet. I'm on page 26 or so.

I have a question though.

It seems when it comes to monitors accurate is much more desirable than flattering. And my budget is pretty low right now, but what I do have is a couple of JBL powered speakers, they are really made for P/A or maybe stage monitors, but I wondered how well something like that would work?

They definitely seem to be heavy in the mid-range department, and not so much in the low-end. They are EON G2 10's. These are they http://www.zzounds.com/item--JBLEON10G2



Any thoughts?


It almost seems cliche at this point, but I just wanted to say how much this thread is helping me, and how much I appreciate it.


Here are the specs in case you don't want to follow the link.

Frequency Range: (-10 dB): 65 Hz - 18 kHz

Frequency Response: (3 dB): 90 Hz - 16 kHz

Horizontal Coverage: (-6 dB): 90-degree Nominal

Vertical Coverage: (-6 dB): 60-degree Nominal

Rated Maximum SPL: 117 dB, @ 1 m (3.3 ft.)

Dimensions: (H x W x D): 493 x 356 x 307mm (19.4 x 14.0 x 12.1 in.)

Net Weight: 10.4 kg (23 lbs.)

LF Driver: Integral frame with one 10-1/2 (254 mm) driver, neodymium magnet, 1.5 Differential Drive voice coil.

HF Driver: JBL 2412 1-1/2 in. compression driver, titanium diaphragm, Ferro-fluid cooled.

Amplifier Power LF: 125 watts @ low-frequency driver impedance.

Amplifier Power HF: 50 watts @ high-frequency driver impedance.

Input 1 Sensitivity:
-48 dBu to 0 dBu for rated output (Mic/Line switch in MIC position)
-6 dBu to +20 dBu for rated output (Mic/Line switch in LINE position)

Input 2 and 3 Sensitivity: -12 dBu to +20 dBu for rated output

Output Level: +26 dBu (max), Loop/Mix switch in MIX position
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:52 PM   #2325
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Hi keeverw, maybe you haven't gone far enough in this thread to see some of the posts on room acoustics but by looking at your picture that's exactly where you need to start. No matter how good or bad your speakers may or may not be, won't matter until you address this issue.

I can see by your picture that you're sitting flat in a corner with presumably hard surfaces in front and to the side.

Really and truly check out other posts on acoustics, that's where your head needs to be.

don't be afraid to start your own thread regarding this, there are some very knowledgeable folks here.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:01 AM   #2326
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Hi keeverw, maybe you haven't gone far enough in this thread to see some of the posts on room acoustics but by looking at your picture that's exactly where you need to start. No matter how good or bad your speakers may or may not be, won't matter until you address this issue.

I can see by your picture that you're sitting flat in a corner with presumably hard surfaces in front and to the side.

Really and truly check out other posts on acoustics, that's where your head needs to be.

don't be afraid to start your own thread regarding this, there are some very knowledgeable folks here.
Thanks for the reply.

I only built my studio (closed in my garage) about a month ago, so I'm definitely far from finished. I'm not in a corner, but you are right that I am surrounded by hard sheetrock on all but one side.

I fully intend to invest in some foam tiles, and wedges in the near future.
But I already have these speakers, and so I am trying to budget and see if I need to plan on investing in monitors soon, or if these will do the job for me (once the room is treated.)

Any thoughts on that?
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:26 AM   #2327
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just a detail but IMO you are (and your speakers are) too close to the wall.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:04 PM   #2328
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Listening to the Hobbit soundtrack the other night thinking the recording sounded good but the arrangement sounded like ass. Seems to be a more common trend now.
You know, thought so too. I also thought it was just me....
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Old 06-01-2013, 05:45 AM   #2329
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I should probably say that I am NOT a "pro."
Once a pro, always a pro Yep. I know how you feel. I left another profession for the same reason. guess what, I don't miss it. I don't care that you are not JJP or CLA or Pensado - doesn't matter. Your contributions are timeless and fundamental. No gear or instrument or DAW upgrade will ever make them irrelevant.

This may be old news to most of you but I go back and read this thread when I am getting ready for a major project. I am going to attempt to capture a live recording of a wild and crazy church service tomorrow morning and this material helps me to keep things in perspective.

This recording is going to take place in a huge geodesic dome building - engineering live sound in this type of room is challenging to say the least and I never envy the FOH guy. The room is only 110 feet across but requires over 16,000 watts of power running through 6 stacks of active Mackies and 4 gynormous subs just to accomodate decent balance in every part of the room.

Now imagine recording a huge band (Drums, bass, guitar, 2 keyboards, organ, and a three-piece horn section) along with two room mics, 4 choir mics, and 6 vocal mics in , what basically amounts to, an overturned satellite dish with 88 different reflective angles in the ceiling alone! We will be capturing everything from Contemporary Christian, to Gospel, to worshipful moments. I don't think I am going to need any fake reverb come mix time...

Yes, I will be scrutinizing Yep's contributions carefully because they help me achieve a perspective and focus on the why's as well as the how's. I subscribe to a LOT of engineering resources and have many books, etc... I keep coming back to this thread because, quite simply, it's one of THE best and it will never get old...
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:59 AM   #2330
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Indemuse, you can get the condensed version in PDF form from my sig....
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:20 PM   #2331
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Once a pro, always a pro Yep.

I am going to attempt to capture a live recording of a wild and crazy church service tomorrow morning and this material helps me to keep things in perspective.

This recording is going to take place in a huge geodesic dome building -
I do not envy you. Can't imagine what the phase problems will be like. I'm no pro. I would love to hear what you end up with. Let us know where I might purchase the final product.

You'll do great because you're conscientious. Go get 'em!

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Old 06-06-2013, 02:55 AM   #2332
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I keep coming back to this thread because, quite simply, it's one of THE best and it will never get old...
That's exactly what I do And that's why I kinda broke a few rules by posting in this thread some of the home made work I've done so far, because I think it makes all sense to give Yep the chance to know and hear some of the results of it's teachings.

By the way, here's a new track I haven't shown here before:

http://daysofjulyband.bandcamp.com/track/childhood

The whole home-made demo so far:

http://daysofjulyband.bandcamp.com/

Hope he gets to hear it..
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Old 07-07-2013, 12:36 PM   #2333
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Hello all,
Nice to be here.
Great thread with some real understandable knowledge to soak up.

A (very)basic question:

I played a mix at a friends house through a standard but decent stereo system and it was woolly and bass heavy. So to test, I ran my daw through
consumer speakers right next to my Yamaha HS50M'monitors and it IS bassy and woolly. So how do I reconcile the differences? Why not just mix through the consumer speakers?

Thanks,
Mike
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Old 07-07-2013, 09:24 PM   #2334
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Why not just mix through the consumer speakers?
Why not try and compare ?
No honestly, mix on whichever monitors the mixes feel best AND translate best. The Yamahas will present you a different level of midrange detail, which is often helpful, because that's where "the music is".
But indeed they're lacking too much bass. Depending on your experience, you might compensate that by either dialing in bass (-bad-) or by checking on cans from time to time (-better-).
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:15 PM   #2335
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Thanks for the reply.
What puzzles me is the fact that the Yamaha monitors are supposed to be "flat" and you should be able to trust what your mixing on them will
translate to other speakers - they don't. And I've tried other monitors with the same result. I'm not particularly good at mixing but I don't see how I can be so far out, especially at the bottom to low mid end.
Am I missing something basic here?

Ta,
Mike
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Old 07-08-2013, 06:21 PM   #2336
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What puzzles me is the fact that the Yamaha monitors are supposed to be "flat" and you should be able to trust what your mixing on them will
Flat means the bass isn't hyped and in many cases we are used to hearing hyped bass; even with a live show that kick drum making your left eye flutter every time it hits in the subs isn't flat per se. Clinically flat for most popular music doesn't sound that good IMHO. If you want more bass, turn up the instruments that provide bass instead of EQ. Some speakers will hype that so you have to find a happy medium and that's what flat speakers are for so you know what is really there. Welcome to the nightmare that is a good mix that sounds good everywhere.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:21 AM   #2337
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So, is it that:
I switch to my consumer speakers, adjust.
Switch back to the monitors, adjust.
Then just keep going between the two?

Gotta be honest, I'll probably end up with a mix that sounds mediocre on both rather than good on one or the other...
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:55 AM   #2338
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Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
So, is it that:
I switch to my consumer speakers, adjust.
Switch back to the monitors, adjust.
Then just keep going between the two?

Gotta be honest, I'll probably end up with a mix that sounds mediocre on both rather than good on one or the other...
No, it's the contrary. You'll notice different areas to improve on each system. At least that's the case here. I couldn't work with my "main" speakers alone. NEED the NS-10's, NEED the Appletones and for easy leveling the Auratones as well.

Besides that: no "flat" speaker exists, and even if there was that flat speaker, you'd have a hard time to find the adequate flat room for it (and I guess it won't be a "flat", haha). Learn your speakers, treat your room in a reasonable way, and you'll slowly have more and more "aha" moments.
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:59 AM   #2339
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Listen to all your favorite CD's through the speakers your going to mix on, so you can learn how your speakers translate sound.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:26 AM   #2340
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Originally Posted by spottydog10 View Post
So, is it that:
I switch to my consumer speakers, adjust.
Switch back to the monitors, adjust.
Then just keep going between the two?

Gotta be honest, I'll probably end up with a mix that sounds mediocre on both rather than good on one or the other...
Mixing as a process is an inherent series of compromises. No two listening environments are the same in the world; so when you have a "perfect mix", the real question is "perfect where?" The process of mixing or mastering for wider translation is a direct reaction to this: the goal/job is to ensure that the highest quality possible sound exists on as many different and disparate systems as possible. To simply make something that sounds great in one environment (but questionable in many others) may be great for that environment but that's only a worthwhile goal if you're mixing for an audience of one.
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:28 AM   #2341
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Mixing as a process is an inherent series of compromises.
Very true. Actually, home recording in general is an inherent series of compromises.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:39 PM   #2342
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"Listen to all your favorite CD's through the speakers your going to mix on, so you can learn how your speakers translate sound"

Which set of speakers? lol.
CD-wise:
My monitors sound clear and crisp but slightly tinny.
My consumer speakers sound a bit dull and muddy and not so much going on in the high end frequencies, but still sound good.
Together they sound fantastic btw.

So, started remixing by referencing both sets of apeakers, switching from one then the other.
Honestly, a touch of highs on the snare on the consumers make it sound like someone banging a trashcan on the monitors.
How do I reconcile the 2 sets of sounds?
Is it a question of slight adjustments till they sound good on either?

Thanks
Mike
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:46 PM   #2343
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Which set of speakers? lol.
Your main monitors, if you get to know them intimately which you will if you listen to the stuff you've heard all your life through them you can adjust yourself to where you know what to do instinctively.

I have Mackie HR824s from 1999 or so, Equator D5s and an old early 90s set of Dynacos (and some old JBLs in another room). I've had the 824s for so long that I can mix on them as good as anything because I've heard them for 13+ years now.

The dynacos are setup living room style, AKA across the room on the floor powered by an old Crown amp. That's my "let's see what it sounds like old school" setup because when I was younger I'd lay on the floor between stereo speakers and listen to my favorite records. Those are anything but accurate but they sure do sound good.

Its really about getting to know what the music is doing and how to make what matters translate. I wouldn't get caught up in the minute differences between them because speakers fall so short of the real thing anyway, you'll just drive yourself nuts for no good reason. I might also add that speakers sound massively different when not at a nominal range (such as 85dB or so). For example my Equators and 824s are extremely similar at that volume, as soon as I turn up beyond that they begin diverging and sounding much different so be aware of the actual level at which you are making comparisons.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:21 PM   #2344
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Thing is, I thought I did know my monitors until last week when I played a track on a mates stereo. It was dull, bass heavy and lifeless, hence the
purchase of the MON800 Stereo so I can switch between speakers.

Looks like I have to rethink my perception of sound.
As I've said, it's difficult to reconcile the differences in frequencies
between the 2 sets of speakers.
Any help appreciated.

Mike
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:27 PM   #2345
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Thing is, I thought I did know my monitors until last week when I played a track on a mates stereo. It was dull, bass heavy and lifeless, hence the
purchase of the MON800 Stereo so I can switch between speakers.

Looks like I have to rethink my perception of sound.
As I've said, it's difficult to reconcile the differences in frequencies
between the 2 sets of speakers.
Any help appreciated.

Mike
Maybe you should take a commercial CD you know well and play at the other place?
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:35 PM   #2346
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Originally Posted by dea-man View Post
Listen to all your favorite CD's through the speakers your going to mix on, so you can learn how your speakers translate sound.
Yep. Make a folder of reference recordings (recordings that, to your ear, have balance in every aspect) of your own and others that you use to compare your mixes with as you're working.
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Old 07-09-2013, 11:48 PM   #2347
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Looks like I have to rethink my perception of sound.
Hard to tell without having heard your room, but most likely: yes.
It took me quite a long time until I was able to define the line between "warm" and "muddy", between "punchy sub" and "drowned in bass", "silky" and "piercing", "cardboard" and "forward mids", and don't get me started about compression

When people in the studio ask me "What exactly should I listen to?", my answer generally is "depth". Does it sound flat and 2D, like it's coming out of a pair of speakers? Or does it sound like coming from a space behind, in front, below and above the speakers? Since the day I concentrated on depth, my mixes became 1.000.000% better. That said: I almost never solo a track anymore, except when I have to hunt that annoying frequency on the snare track. But unfortunately I think one has to make all those mistakes, one of them is "muddy mixes", in order to learn how to listen.
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:07 PM   #2348
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I've had the ability to switch between 2 sets of speakers for a couple of days now and it's driving me nuts.

Example, I run the drum track thru the wharfedales, the bass drum is thuddy,
snare is full of mud, the hats aren't too bad.
I eq until they sound reasonable.
I switch on the Yamaha monitors and it sounds so thin and tinny, the hats are practically at dog frequency.

I've also done the opposite, mixed on the monitors and hey, surprise.
Sounds great on the monitors, switch to the wharfedales and it is a sea of mud.

I've played a couple of reference cd's. The monitors sound great, the speakers sound reasonable enough (but different, duller)
Any advice will be gratefully received.

Aaargh!
Mike
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:03 AM   #2349
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How loud are you monitoring when you dial in EQ and individual levels?
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:24 AM   #2350
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Not very loud, I would say loud conversation level,

Mike
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:37 PM   #2351
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The only thing that helped me was to put away every other speaker except one pair, and all the headphones except one pair.

I then listened to EVERYTHING thru those 2, and I mean EVERYTHING. If it had audio, it went thru those speakers & headphones, and after a year I had no problem getting acceptable mixes that translated OK across most systems...NOT "perfect", NOT "right on", acceptable.

And since I don't have the $$$ to step it up a notch with more room treatment & better speakers, I will take "acceptable" and write another song....
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Old 08-17-2013, 12:26 AM   #2352
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this thread is the best. And now I'm pro (sort of)
and what I've learned:
_in the past, things were different because tape vs. digital is like fresco vs. oil on canvass.
they are very different. You can get similar results, but if you love frescos as your idea of perfection, you should be painting frescos, not oil on canvas. So if you are telling people how you "love the sound" of any music done before Y2K, (and certain acts afterwards), tape is still the sound that you should be aiming for.
_Speakers... much has been said. i can only add: if you can't hear it, you will have no idea what it sounds like. If you don't have a sub, then you must use an eq to make the sub area audible. Better to get a sub. AND WARNING: some supposedly flat speakers have crossover points where there is nothing audible, right in the middle of the hearing range, like 2kHZ!!!! So it might sound PERFECT, but then it will sound waaaay wrong elsewhere...
You MUST do tests with pink noise, , moving the speakers around the room. Adjust a 31 band EQ to get the soundm aim for 1 db!... Get to know your speakers. (I suggest at least 5 different days and speakers placement tests)

_acoustics: every room has DRAMATIC effects on sound.. like +/-20dB shifts of certain frequencies!!!! Example: 110hz might be +3dB, 120 hz might be -28dB, 130hz might be -4dB, and 150 hz might be right at 0dB...
best to spend all your energy figuring out whats really going on in your room. Then apply acoustic treatment as needed.
In rooms I'm unsure of, I like to play pink noise, boost a medium narrow eq and scan through the frequencies, looking for areas that sound overly loud, take mental note, then try to boost areas that are clearly lacking. And then repeat this while playing as many of my favorite CD's through the speakers as I can "What if I boost a low shelf.. hmm am I happier?.. Now if I take it off, am I ok still?". no EQ is ideal, but if you need EQ don't sweat it, just use it.
EVERY monitoring setup should have a goal of sounding smooth, natural, lifelike... which if things are going good acoustically in the room, you will of get there naturally. If its missing thump, or sounds in any way hornlike, there is something going on. *(NS-10's are supposed to sound a little hornlike, -they reveal what what other monitors don't-,...AND beware that a nice deep bass that stretches into the sub area, if too loud, will mask and hide what's truly going on higher up the audio spectrum)

_ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS Play at least one reference song through the monitors before
opening your project. The air density changes everyday, the ears themselves change everyday, Your perception changes everyday. This is probably most important. I play at least 3 songs of CD's I know and trust. then I work for hours, go to the car and no surprises.

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Old 09-21-2013, 04:55 PM   #2353
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Interesting thread.

But I do feel that there isn't any silver bullet or absolute truth in making something sound "good". It's really a subjective matter.

Some of the most great sounding albums/records of the past used the most shitty equipment you can imagine by today's standards. Why do so many old records sound great? It's dynamics, it's natural artifacts, it's the flaws. Protools didn't exists then, so every tiny mistake can be heard in these records. It's exactly these tiny "mistakes" that makes it sound great in my opinion.

For example, when you hear a piece of audio going through tubes, we tend to think that it sounds warm and great. While in fact, it is distortion that is responsible for that "effect".

Compression and this whole loudness war has made our ears lazy to natural dynamics.

Our attention span these days is that of a goldfish. No one wants to sit down and listen to a piece that lasts a couple of hours and has a broad dynamic spectrum that goes all over the place. Classical music for example, cannot be compressed. If you do so, it sounds horrible. Most mixes these days sound sterile, too clean. It has all life sucked out of it.

People are lazy and want instant gratification: a 3 or 4 minute song compressed into a shiny wrapper, so that it sounds "good" on their car radio or "iPod". So what if my mixes don't sound "great" on a car radio or iPod? I rather write something for a decent home stereo, for someone who values a dynamic piece with all it's natural flaws and isn't lazy to really "listen" and dig the piece in all facets and flaws.

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Old 09-21-2013, 05:14 PM   #2354
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Interesting thread.

But I do feel that there isn't any silver bullet or absolute truth in making something sound "good". It's really a subjective matter.

Some of the most great sounding albums/records of the past used the most shitty equipment you can imagine by today's standards. Why do so many old records sound great? It's dynamics, it's natural artifacts, it's the flaws.

For example, when you hear a piece of audio going through tubes, we tend to think that it sounds warm and great. While in fact, it is distortion that is responsible for that "effect".

Compression and this whole loudness war has made our ears lazy to natural dynamics.

Our attention span these days is that of a goldfish. No one wants to sit down and listen to a piece that lasts a couple of hours and has a broad dynamic spectrum that goes all over the place. Classical music for example, cannot be compressed. If you do so, it sounds horrible. Most mixes these days sound sterile, too clean. It has all life sucked out of it. People are lazy and want instant gratification: a 3 or 4 minute song compressed into a shiny wrapper, so that it sounds "good" on your car radio or "iPod". Really sad if you think about it...

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Amen. Really sad...
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Old 09-22-2013, 05:04 PM   #2355
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It's funny.

When I listen to an old Genesis (with Peter Gabriel) album, right next to a "modern album", it is easily noted how different the albums are as far as compression and loudness go.

The modern album is compressed to the hilt, and is as loud as can possibly be.

But, the Genesis album has to be turned up, because it hasn't been "squished to death" by compression, and all the dynamics wrung out of it, due to "modern compression standards".

Guess which album has more character?
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:14 AM   #2356
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Yeah, tried to listen to "Selling England by the Pound" in a car going 110km/h with all the tire noise...

Best enjoyed at home.
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:06 AM   #2357
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Yeah, tried to listen to "Selling England by the Pound" in a car going 110km/h with all the tire noise...

Best enjoyed at home.
You can fix that. It's called DynaMat.
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Old 10-26-2013, 08:17 AM   #2358
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Came about the thread from another link recently. Wish would have found it quite some time ago. Sort feel like thief stealing some absolutely awesome info. Tremendous help. Allot of superlatives aside . Much appreciate yep.
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Old 10-30-2013, 07:31 AM   #2359
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hello i was wondering if some1 could help me, i have reaper and a Behringer Guitar Link UCG102 USB Audio Interface that i use to record my guitar, it is working fine, but i get this ringing noise coming through all the time, any1 jhelp?
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Old 10-30-2013, 08:31 AM   #2360
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hello i was wondering if some1 could help me, i have reaper and a Behringer Guitar Link UCG102 USB Audio Interface that i use to record my guitar, it is working fine, but i get this ringing noise coming through all the time, any1 jhelp?
It would be better for you, and you will get more answers, if you start your own thread.

Thank you.
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