Old 09-10-2010, 06:19 AM   #1
serr
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Default Anyone else using this as a live mixer?

What are your experiences so far?
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:39 PM   #2
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Live with an audience? I get paranoid about using computers for live performance. Do you have a back-up computer or a back-up mixer?

Here is what I wrote before. (Please read the full discussion, because that's just my opinion an some people don't share my paranoia. )

I'm not quite so paranoid if you're just mixing a few inputs, but if I was mixing a whole band I'd want a good 'ol reliable hardware mixer with easy access to all of the controls, and controls that don't get accidentally re-assigned...

As I mentioned in the other post I'm not a musician, but I occasionally DJ (and I used to work for a sound company). I bring enough back-up and redundant equipment to my DJ gigs so that if any piece of equipment dies I'm not shut-down. Uh-Oh... I only have one mic... Dynamic mics usually last forever, but I'd better get a back-up!
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Old 09-10-2010, 01:50 PM   #3
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Yes, live with a full band. 20 inputs. I'm liking this a lot and I don't plan on looking back.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:20 PM   #4
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I could see how a small touring band would wan to do this...

Save all there settings that they like..

Monitor Mixes, General Mix for each song with SWS snapshots.

I guess you would just need to make sure you don't get any artifacts at a buffer of 128 or 64 with all those plugins on.

I'm trying to get a small case for my DIGI002r to try this for FX sends only.. I'll let you know how it sounds after i get it going.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:28 PM   #5
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serr.... can you tell us in detail about the computer and other parts of the set up you are using for your live work?
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:13 AM   #6
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None of the PC-based live mixing applications have the right interface/workflow for live situations IMO. Just not fast enough for the "oh shit" moments, i.e. "oh shit that mic's too hot, gotta turn it down," or "oh shit something's feeding back, gotta mute it."

I'll feel confident about PC-based mixing when I can drive the app almost entirely with the keyboard. Mouse should only be reserved for moving faders and knobs, and even then I should be able to select the faders and knobs with the keyboard rather than having to reach for it with my mouse.
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Old 09-11-2010, 04:31 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analogy View Post
None of the PC-based live mixing applications have the right interface/workflow for live situations IMO. Just not fast enough for the "oh shit" moments, i.e. "oh shit that mic's too hot, gotta turn it down," or "oh shit something's feeding back, gotta mute it."

I'll feel confident about PC-based mixing when I can drive the app almost entirely with the keyboard. Mouse should only be reserved for moving faders and knobs, and even then I should be able to select the faders and knobs with the keyboard rather than having to reach for it with my mouse.
Thats kinda how I feel on this... But some of the digital consoles out there aren't as fast as Analog ones in turns of the "Oh S***" moments. Don't get me wrong... I love using a Digi console for Monitor mixes or FOH... But there is something about knowing that EVERYTHING in on 1 strip... not on a strip and then on a monitor that you need a mouse for.

Thats why I mentioned that it might be good for a small touring band that has their own setup of speakers and monitor. 16 channels on Firewire @ a 64 buffer... ReaComp and ReaEQ on each track with a couple nice Verbs as busses and 3-4 monitor mixes should be pretty easy to do on any system these days, And if the band wants to record the show just put an external HD on the laptop.
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Old 09-11-2010, 07:26 AM   #8
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hopi, basically what I listed in the signature
This evolved from a remote recording setup.

analogy, was that a rip on windows (PC)? Agreed if yes. I find my wireless usb to be very reliable. Real faders right under my fingers with no lag. I do dub and lots of really interactive mixing. It's really working!

Yes, 128 samples buffer.

The hardest part has been finding a daw that works...

Protools HD: love it, addicted to it, doesn't apply for live work though
Logic Audio Hell: just the worst piece of shit ever written ever
Digital Performer: I have v5.13 currently and the amount of critical bugs doesn't motivate me to stay with them. (FYI: DP3 in OS9 was a 100% perfect software experience for remote recording.)
Ableton Live: feels like pre-alpha. Huge critical stability bugs. Unusable. It even corrupts its app file!
Studio One: Almost... This has a fairly serious stability bug that causes it to quit. Tech support is silent. 8 successful shows but this one's fired.
Reaper: Looking good after a week of testing. Why the hell didn't I try this one first! Going out in front of people tonight.

Oh, did I mention that I'm also recording all the tracks as well as automation? Life is good.
Not being tied to a static foh location is priceless!

Last edited by serr; 09-11-2010 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 09-11-2010, 02:57 PM   #9
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Here's how REAPER looks in my test-setup for live sound:

http://www.unseensound.com/reaperlive.jpg

* You're seeing the FoH tab, there's also 4 aux mixers running in the other tabs. These aux-mixers are actually replica's of the FoH mixer, but with only EQ on each track and a compressor limiter on the main outs.
* I configured the 4 tracks in the end as VCA's now, but they can be switched to buss-mode as well.
* The FoH track is used as main out, the Master track is used as the Monitor out. This is to be able to solo tracks in a live-fashion (meaning you can solo into cans and your FoH mix is unaffected.
* I set up some custom keybindings for cycling the tabs (mixers) and changing the master tempo (the delays are synced to them, so I can use that key to tap'm).

Hardware used:

* Sony Vaio with CoreDuo P8600 cpu and 4GB memory
* RME Raydat PCIe interface in a Magma Expressbox PCIe - Expresscard adapter box
* Focusrite Saffire Pro 26 i/o in standalone mode (so basically adat i/o with preamps and 2 headphone amps)
* Behringer ADA 8000 (adat i/o with pre-amps)

This has worked flawlessly in 4-hour testing sessions so far. Latency roundtrip of 1,5 ms, but I'd probably go to 3 ms for redundancy.Once my custom flightcase is done, I'll be doing my first fieldtests. I'll probably start by using it inline with an A&H wizard, so I have something to fall back on in case of trouble. But if it works fine after two runs, I'll use it alone... And start saving for a touch screen probably

I'll keep you posted.

Last edited by Lastrite; 09-11-2010 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 09-11-2010, 09:58 PM   #10
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Lastrite... do I understand correctly what your image shows... those tabs are actually project tabs, right?
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Old 09-12-2010, 01:27 AM   #11
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Just got back from a flawless gig with Reaper. The board sounds great. Very stable operation.
Just a modest setup tonight - 13 channels of drums, bass, keys, 2 gtrs & 3 vox and another 4 channels of fx (3 Waves H-delays and a Lexicon plate). Waves SSL channel strips on all the inputs. Recorded (and mixed) the tracks at 24/48. Recorded the mix automation too.
I'd feel comfortable running a festival stage with this rig.

It's official. I'm abandoning Presonus Studio One and upgrading to Reaper.
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Old 09-12-2010, 03:04 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
Lastrite... do I understand correctly what your image shows... those tabs are actually project tabs, right?
Yes, each tab is a seperate mixer. So if I need to change the in-ear mix of someone, I'd jump to 'his' tab and adjust his mix.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:30 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Oh, did I mention that I'm also recording all the tracks as well as automation? Life is good.
Not being tied to a static foh location is priceless!
So... What program are you using on the iPad to control your system when you walk around?
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:40 AM   #14
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Quote:
It's official. I'm abandoning Presonus Studio One and upgrading to Reaper.
serr: OMG... IMHO studio one is soooo bad... anything would be a big improvment but Reaper should be like going to heaven by comparison!

Lastrite... please explain more about the tab set up if you would...

I sure wish just the Mixer could have tabs for different mixers, but as I understand it tabs are ONLY for whole projects...

So how are your projects set up so you can jump around in the mixer... I'm not grasping it but I'd really like to.
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:50 AM   #15
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It's simply 5 different projects in 5 different tabs. If you jump to another tab, the mixer jumps to the corresponding project as well.

Does that explain it? I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly...
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Old 09-12-2010, 08:57 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastrite View Post
It's simply 5 different projects in 5 different tabs. If you jump to another tab, the mixer jumps to the corresponding project as well.

Does that explain it? I'm not sure if I understand the question correctly...
right that is what I thought... so then each project must essentially be a dupelicate set up... what is confusing to me is when you say you jump to a diff tab to adjust someone's headphone mix... It makes me wonder why there can't be all the headphone outs on just one project.. and then also if you jump to a diff tab to adjust one headphone mix, what happens to the other head phones mixes when you do that? This is my confusion. Thanks for taking the time to clear it up. Not trying to be a pest... just curious as your set up is very intriging to me.

Of special interest is that Magna pcie box... I didn't even know such things existed. I did a little research on those from seeing you mention it .... pricey little suckers, eh?
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:47 AM   #17
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You could use a single project's sends to create monitormixes indeed... But why would you make life harder for yourself? What's the upside of using one mixer for it?

Instead of fiddling with send knobs, every monitorfeed has an independant mixer, with faders, independant EQ, independant dynamics...

Changes you make in one project have no effect on the others.

The Expressbox is expensive indeed... It was only worth it for me because I happened to stumble upon one for less then half the price.
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Old 09-12-2010, 10:56 AM   #18
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Lastrite could you do us a favor and upload your session template for the main mix and the aux sends? I'd like to look it over to see what you have done to it... and possibly give it a try.
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Old 09-12-2010, 11:12 AM   #19
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This *should* be it...

EDIT: Well it's not the exact project from the screenshot, but roughly the same...
Attached Files
File Type: zip reaperlive.zip (18.5 KB, 420 views)

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Old 09-12-2010, 04:28 PM   #20
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Awesome thread.

I'm a lover of the hardware and wouldn't dream of this at the better equipped venues I work at but I'm currently head engineer at a venue thats short on channels for 4 or 5 band bills. If this is stable enough it might be a great way of ensuring that each band gets a soundcheck.

It might also be an option whenever I tour engineer and the same is true of a lack of channels.

Couple of questions, how are you interfacing with venues systems? Do you take splits from their core at the desk end or is it possible, if they've all their desks channels inserts on patch bay to run from trs to your interfaces inputs and back out to the patch bay so you've still the hands on experience of the desk faders for front of house purposes?

Are people doing this or are they simply running a stereo mix, and monitor mixes from their interfaces?

I've a fairly new 13" mbp 2.4 GHz Intel core 2 Duo with 4GB ram. I have 16 channels worth of presonus firepod as an interface.

I much prefer a hands on experience for foh but I guess to make the most of my outputs and what few channels might be spare on a desk I could group buss things out.

I guess I could get a band I engineer in to rehearse as a chance to try it out. Anyhow, wicked to hear other people had thought of and are already implementing this!
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:41 PM   #21
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...I think I get what the other dude was asking you too in regards to the monitor mixes.

It was my assumption, that audio could only run to and from one project at a time? So are they separate mixer tabs for the same project as opposed to one project for FOH and another for for each of the monitor mixes?

Excuse the confusion if there's something I'm not getting.
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Old 09-12-2010, 04:52 PM   #22
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Me again.. I may have a gross misunderstanding of how computers work but would it be possible, or worthwhile even, for my laptop to be dual boot.. with another instance of osx?

For example I'd have my everyday usage instance and another incrdibly streamlined OS (just reaper and the plugins) for the sole purpose of the live mixing.

I may be being very VERY silly!
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:16 PM   #23
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It seems the only way to get all sessions to have audio at the same time is to press "PLAY" on each session... is there any other way in the settings to have audio from all projects going? Also.. I would want to disable any way to stop a session from playing by any means except pressing the "Play" button on the transporter.

Anyone have any ideas?
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Old 09-12-2010, 05:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyGinese View Post
So... What program are you using on the iPad to control your system when you walk around?
iTeleport
It's like Apple Remote Desktop but for the watered down OS that the iPad runs.

re: tabs and stuff in Reaper
I haven't really played around with changing the appearance of Reaper's board. The default layout seems fine so far. I was considering putting different open plugin windows in different 'spaces' to flip between with a gesture. I assign all the important faders and fx knobs to the uc-33 for mixing. The Faderport is the wild-card fader. Actually trying to mix with a touch surface with remote desktop would be absolutely impossible IMHO. MIDI controllers is what makes this work. I use Cuemix to run the zero-latency internal mixers in the MOTU's for monitors. I haven't set myself up a solo mix yet. I think I'll end up getting one of those awful Shure radios (that work for maybe 20' or 30' and usually not the stated 300') and patch the MOTU headphone out into that.

Unclujambo, that's not necessary.

You know what the really big deal is here? The sound of this mixing board absolutely blows away every single desk I've ever used live except this Amek desk at the Belly Up in Aspen, CO. Everyone who's ever had to send your vox to an additional bus to get enough headroom out of the board raise your hand. Running Reaper is like dialing up a mix in Protools at home. I'm intentionally not adding extra bussing and keeping plugins to a minimum for latency concerns live. The SSL channel strips are pretty nice though.

Ha ha, anyone who hates wrapping up a snake at 3am raise your hand.

Last edited by serr; 09-12-2010 at 06:01 PM.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:43 AM   #25
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Nowhere near reaper, but there's two preferences you need to set to make this work:

* The option to keep the audio engine running when stopped...

* The option to keep tabs in the background running...

If you can't find those Ill make a licecap when I'm home...
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:16 AM   #26
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Quote:
Nowhere near reaper, but there's two preferences you need to set to make this work:

* The option to keep the audio engine running when stopped...

* The option to keep tabs in the background running...
ah ha.... OK that was exaactly what I didn't understand... now the tab's situation is making perfect sense... thanks for that
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:33 AM   #27
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I've used Reaper as a live mixer before. It was great, and I used a lot of plug-ins. It was great to work live as if I was in the studio I did it in a youth centre (don't know how to call it in English, it's kinda a bar for young people with lots of activities, concerts, movies, ... organised by young people, subsidised by the city), where they didn't have any equipment or budget ... So they asked me (have some friends over there). So I told them I couldn't promise anything and that they better look after a PA-firm, but I did it anyway.

Pro: After the concerts, I invite the bands to copy their recordings onto their USB-sticks.
Con: I don't have any back-up material, so one plug-in going bad would be enough to shut everything down.
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:23 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastrite View Post
Nowhere near reaper, but there's two preferences you need to set to make this work:

* The option to keep the audio engine running when stopped...

* The option to keep tabs in the background running...

If you can't find those Ill make a licecap when I'm home...
Makes sense

Serr, sorry whats not necessary? The clean OS build? You're probably right it's just paranoia of crashes I guess. There have also been times when tracking that an unusual latency has been present. This has been after particularly long sessions where I've been closing and re-opening projects so I guess it mightn't be too much of an issue if these 5 projects are left running for the night without any opening and closing.

Having a closer read at lastrites bit I can now see he's just running a single FOH mix and the additional 4 monitor mixes but is anyone streaming out individual or bussed channels?
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:37 AM   #29
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... So I dled the file and messed around with it.. my laptop isn't powerful enough to do a main mix and 4 or 5 monitor mixes... But.. I made a session with 1 mixer that uses sends for 4 monitor mixes and it works fine in my system. ReaComp and ReaEQ on each channel and buss. If I had a better system I would probably try to somewhat Serr is doing and use SSL Channel on each track for the added gate and my preferred controls.. This is looking pretty cool.

I wonder if it's possible to link 2 ProFire 2626 units together that are maxed out with adat to get 48 tracks. It would be pretty amazing to have a 6u rack with a laptop on top controling a live show with 48 channels of io in that small package. I'm sure if you had a quad you could do something like ssl channel on main mix channels and ReaEQ on each channel of monitors.. With like 6 monitor mixes. And still only be at 30% CPU usage.
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:14 AM   #30
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@Jonny

How about two mixers/projects/tabs? One for FoH and one for Monitors?

That way you still have separate eq's and some faders for quick damagecontrol, but your laptop only has to process two mixers... Seems to me like your laptop should be able to handle that easily...

On daisy-chaining: RME tells you to use FW800 when linking more then one Fireface because you'll run out of bandwidth... That tells me 48 i/o will probably be tough through FW400...


@serr

I understand the Cuemix choice... I'll probably use Totalmix for monitormixes as well if for some reason I need to up my latency or my processor gets stressed. Does Cuemix have any internal latency free dsp?
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Old 09-13-2010, 08:26 AM   #31
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@Unclejambo

I'm going to use REAPER inline as well next year when I'm doing a Metal/Opera tour (band + small orchestra + 6 singers). I'll use the inserts of whatever desk the venue uses and do all EQ/Dynamics/FX in REAPER, so I can save and restore the settings and get started quicker after one show.

I'd actually prefer to always work like that so I can always switch off the inserts and fall back on the analogue desk.

I'm just hoping the A&H GS R24 coming this year will be in my price range, That will probably be the ultimate desk for this stuff... Especially with my Raydat interface...

* dreams on *
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:15 AM   #32
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Yeah definitely, inline seems like the way I'd prefer working.

I've just set about building my own session where I have:

Monitor channels 1234 corresponding to the same outputs on the interface

Every audio channel has a send for each of these mixes

FOH is a track folder containing all of the audio channels, it's hardware output routed to channels 5 and 6 on my device and finally the master is assigned to 7 and 8 which would be a cue mix for me.

...Anyhow, I'm testing one of the monitor sends by placing a drum loop on one of the tracks and sending the desired amount. I've a set of headphones running from the relevant output and all works well until I solo another channel.

As this second channel isn't sent to the channels my headphones are on I'm not getting it but nor am I getting the stuff I had assigned. Any pointers?
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:31 AM   #33
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Can't you fix it by putting the headphone channel on Solo-defeat like I did with the FoH channel?

Remember that I don't actually use sends for monitormixes I'm just guessing!
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Old 09-13-2010, 09:39 AM   #34
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Haha that would be it, cheers mate
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:02 AM   #35
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Quote:
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I understand the Cuemix choice... I'll probably use Totalmix for monitormixes as well if for some reason I need to up my latency or my processor gets stressed. Does Cuemix have any internal latency free dsp?
Yes - basic dynamics and eq. The other thing I do is dial up a basic mix with a free bus and send it to the main out (same main out I'm using for Reaper). I'll leave this muted. If something were to happen with the main mix I could unmute the cuemix backup in seconds. This feature came in handy when I was trying Studio One. I suspect I'll never have to use this with Reaper.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:44 AM   #36
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That's a good tip... Totalmix could be a great failsafe as well.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:19 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lastrite View Post
Nowhere near reaper, but there's two preferences you need to set to make this work:

* The option to keep the audio engine running when stopped...

* The option to keep tabs in the background running...

If you can't find those Ill make a licecap when I'm home...

Lastrite - where on earth did you find the "keeps tabs running in background" setting - I can't find it anywhere in preferances??????
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:11 PM   #38
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Lastrite - where on earth did you find the "keeps tabs running in background" setting - I can't find it anywhere in preferances??????
Go to file\new project tab

right click on the area right to the right of the project tab
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:35 AM   #39
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Aaahh - found it - also found it in action list and made hotkey for it - thanx for the help!!!
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:04 AM   #40
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I don't remember who asked about using Sends for Monitors but here it is.

It seems like the fastest way to do monitor changes with sends in this view is to use the routing matrix.. and right clicking on the send... once you right click you get a little window right at your cursor with a fader for volume and Pan.

Mixer

Mixer has a collapsible VCA section. The VCAs control Volume, Mute, Solo and Rec. The VCA parent folder controls Mute Solo and Rec. so you can keep it collapsed most of the time and just press the Record button to get started. There is a Sidechain Comp setup on the bass triggered from the Kick. FX aren't setup to preference.. they are just there for your configuration.

Routing

This is the fastest way for me when i have this view open. If there is a quick key to switch between docker tabs that would be even better. Just right click on the send you want and a window pops up to adjust. X out when done or right click the next Send.

Session file below.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Mixer.jpg (64.1 KB, 4795 views)
File Type: jpg Routing for Monitors.jpg (50.4 KB, 3890 views)
Attached Files
File Type: rpp REAPER Live - ReaEQ Comp Gate.RPP (76.5 KB, 191 views)
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