Old 01-22-2016, 12:53 PM   #1
vejichan
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Default ideas to make ampsims more real?

Believe it not I have been playing amp sims for 2 years..it was nt until recently that I changed the buffer size from 512 to 128..made a huge difference. Any other suggestions?
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Old 01-22-2016, 01:31 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by vejichan View Post
Believe it not I have been playing amp sims for 2 years..it was nt until recently that I changed the buffer size from 512 to 128..made a huge difference. Any other suggestions?
512 is pretty high for playing live through an amp sim. I usually run mine at 256 which admittedly is high too according to some people, but I'm lazy and don't want to keep jumping around between buffer sizes. And I've gotten used to it.

Not sure I understand the question though... make amp sims more real? In what sense? In the playing sense or in the sound quality/realism sense? Or both?
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:09 PM   #3
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Check out Recabinet. Great response, great sound. Amp sims without cab sims
do not sound well in most cases !
128 256 512 -well, it depends on your Audio interface , the drivers
and your processor, I guess, I am fine with 512 (no perceivable latency), sometimes 256,
at times 128, the more plugins I use the higher my buffer size.

A big disadvantage of amp sim plugins compared to real ones is the fact
they do not serve as a seat ;-)
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Old 01-22-2016, 02:25 PM   #4
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Amp sims without cab sims do not sound well in most cases !
Yeah, a good cab IR is the Alpha and the Omega. Good IR's will make even the shoddiest amp sim sound decent, whereas a shoddy IR will make even the best amp sims sound like crap.
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Old 01-22-2016, 03:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
ideas to make ampsims more real?
Bigger monitors to make it LOUDER?

With so many guitar/pickup/amp/room combinations, almost every guitar setup sounds different (and that's before even considering effects), so most of the time it should be hard to tell if you are listening to a recording made with an (unknown) amp and microphone, or a recording made with a (unknown) sim.

Of course if you have your favorite amp, it's going to be tricky to simulate that exactly.

If we're talking about live sound, volume does have a lot to do with it. And, room sound... So if you're listening to a sim & headphones, it's not likely to sound realistic.

Quote:
I changed the buffer size from 512 to 128..made a huge difference.
That won't change the sound character/quality at all, unless there are problems with the smaller buffer.

It will affect the latency (delay) so it may be easier for you to play (or you may play better) with a shorter buffer.
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Old 01-22-2016, 03:26 PM   #6
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it should be hard to tell if you are listening to a recording made with an (unknown) amp and microphone, or a recording made with a (unknown) sim.

...or to add even more confusion, it could be the preamp out of an actual physical amp into a software cab sim. Or a software amp sim run through the power amp in of a physical amp + cab.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:02 PM   #7
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For clean'ish to lower gain sounds (classic type tones)...

Try playing around with Voxengo Geq to get the mids closer to what you would expect to hear from an amp and to add some upper harmonics. I have been playing with this lately, and using an instance or two of geq after the amp sim chain has been helpful. Are there other harmonic eq's out there? I haven't found any. I guess this falls into exciter territory.

Try adding some compression either before the amp sim or after it, and before the cabinet. I don't have any specific recommendations here.

Adding some room ambience helps. Most of the commercial amp sims have room settings, that have varying degrees of success in sounding like a room.

None of this gets to sounding like a real amp in a room to me, but with a lot of tweaking, it can get closer. The basic tone still sounds calculated and linear, without getting the type of grit, dynamics, and response that a good amp can get.

Also keep in mind that getting metal tones is a different world than getting classic rock tones, where metal tones are typically tight and focused, not requiring any sort of sag feel, bloom, or room ambience. Also, with the amount of gain that metal tones have, there isn't so much a lack of harmonics as there is with amp sims being used for classic type tones, where on a nice real amp, even a cleanish sound can have tons of harmonics.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:36 PM   #8
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sort of a couple different topics here.

My attempts at getting very low latency on software amps never get me where I wanted.

I got down to 64 samples at 44.1 on my fast track pro but It still felt really awkward to play.
I got the same sensation with several of the highly touted sims I demo'd
I came the the conclusion I would need a new expensive interface to get what I wanted latency wise. So I got an axefx and couldn't be happier (other than the scary credit card statement i get now)



The other topic of ampsim realism is just the realism of the sound. I think several of the softsims and several hardware modelers have got so damn close it doesn't matter anymore, they sound great. Cab IR's do make a big difference but there are plenty of options with both software and hardware sims
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:44 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by cerendir View Post
Yeah, a good cab IR is the Alpha and the Omega. Good IR's will make even the shoddiest amp sim sound decent, whereas a shoddy IR will make even the best amp sims sound like crap.
Not aware of Alpha & Omega IR. Will keep searching, but could use a Link
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:49 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Daniovan View Post
Check out Recabinet. Great response, great sound. Amp sims without cab sims
do not sound well in most cases !
128 256 512 -well, it depends on your Audio interface , the drivers
and your processor, I guess, I am fine with 512 (no perceivable latency), sometimes 256,
at times 128, the more plugins I use the higher my buffer size.

A big disadvantage of amp sim plugins compared to real ones is the fact
they do not serve as a seat ;-)
No problem at all with Recabinet4 .... love it!

Also keep testing Torpedo Studio Wall of Sound III. Have only a few Cabs, but they have a terrific special on now thru NAMM dates __ eg_ 10 cabs for <$40.. Any comments or criticisms ??
Looks like they have a decent reputation for their hardware??

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Old 01-22-2016, 05:11 PM   #11
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Recabinet needs room simulation. Sure, if you're playing metal, you probably don't want any room sound in the mix, but lots of other types of tones just don't work with dry only.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:13 PM   #12
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I just happened onto this gadget that produces sustain and feedback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgaquPdTHCs

Very cool, and it could be useful when working with amp sims.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:13 PM   #13
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/ drops mic
// walks off stage
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:17 PM   #14
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/ drops mic
// walks off stage
Get out of here with your sanity.
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Old 01-22-2016, 05:56 PM   #15
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Recabinet needs room simulation. Sure, if you're playing metal, you probably don't want any room sound in the mix, but lots of other types of tones just don't work with dry only.
Naive keyboardist ... so follow info from good guys here. Assumed I would always add NadIR, or Poulin LeCab2 after Recab4 or Torpedo WoS III .... plus stuff from growing IR Folder (Red Wire Impulses, Gregor Henning IRs, others ..). Isn't this the deal ??

Keep that Vibeware GR-1 beam well away from your important parts!!

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Old 01-22-2016, 05:59 PM   #16
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Try putting a mic in the sweet spot of your monitor speakers.. Sound anything like the original?

I rest my case.

Direct and amp sims everytime!
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:25 PM   #17
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As naive keyboardist ... just follow info from good guys here. Assumed I would always add NadIR, or Poulin LeCab2 after Recab4 or Torpedo WoS III .... plus stuff from growing IR Folder (Red Wire Impulses, Gregor Henning IRs, others ..). Isn't this the deal ??

Keep that Vibeware GR-1 beam well away from your important parts!!
I don't know. I always got annoyed switching between a ton of IR files, never getting a room sound that I liked.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:34 PM   #18
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I don't know. I always got annoyed switching between a ton of IR files, never getting a room sound that I liked.
Sorry to be tedious, but can I get close to what you describe by adding Valhalla Vintage Verb Room settings in the FX chain after amp/cab sims?
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:48 PM   #19
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Sorry to be tedious, but can I get close to what you describe by adding Valhalla Vintage Verb Room settings in the FX chain after amp/cab sims?
I use reaverb with some regular reverb impulses, works fine for me. Sometimes epicverb also
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:54 PM   #20
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Naive keyboardist ... so follow info from good guys here. Assumed I would always add NadIR, or Poulin LeCab2 after Recab4 or Torpedo WoS III .... plus stuff from growing IR Folder (Red Wire Impulses, Gregor Henning IRs, others ..). Isn't this the deal ??

Keep that Vibeware GR-1 beam well away from your important parts!!
ReCab comes with it's own IR library, IMO quite possibly the best one available. That's what you're choosing from when you select your speaker cabinet and mic in Recab 4.

But that's for your speaker cab impulses. Impulse responses are used for a lot more than that, especially reverb, so if you want some room sound added after ReCab you can either use a digital algorithmic reverb or a convolution reverb which uses an impulse response of a real acoustic space, the same way ReCab uses an impulse response of a speaker cabinet.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:55 PM   #21
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Sorry to be tedious, but can I get close to what you describe by adding Valhalla Vintage Verb Room settings in the FX chain after amp/cab sims?
I don't think so, but possibly. A room sound is less of an algo-type sound, more of a natural-type sound. Personally, I like small room sounds rather than the typical big/lush. I mean, I want the room sound to be more of an ambience that the sound sits in, rather than sounding like an effect.

What might be nice for room simulation is extensive sets of room IR files behind an interface like those virtual mic/amp/room type things in big name amp sim plugins, where you move virtual microphones and adjust pan and volume to shape the room sound, rather than drilling through a list of IR files, or rather than being limited to only a set of direct mic IR files.
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Old 01-22-2016, 06:56 PM   #22
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I use reaverb with some regular reverb impulses, works fine for me. Sometimes epicverb also
Thank-you. I have both and ReaVerb can access all my IR folder content. Room presets in epicverb work OK.

Regards
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Old 01-22-2016, 08:19 PM   #23
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Personally, I like small room sounds rather than the typical big/lush. I mean, I want the room sound to be more of an ambience that the sound sits in, rather than sounding like an effect.
This. I often feel like it's impossible to get a proper "cranked up" tone without at least a little bit of room sound adding oomph to your palm mutes. The trick is to EQ the reverb really hard, so it's mostly just low mids.
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Old 01-22-2016, 10:24 PM   #24
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Recabinet needs room simulation. Sure, if you're playing metal, you probably don't want any room sound in the mix, but lots of other types of tones just don't work with dry only.
Why not using a (good)) reverb to simulate a room ?-!
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Old 01-22-2016, 10:27 PM   #25
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No problem at all with Recabinet4 .... love it!

Also keep testing Torpedo Studio Wall of Sound III. Have only a few Cabs, but they have a terrific special on now thru NAMM dates __ eg_ 10 cabs for <$40.. Any comments or criticisms ??
Looks like they have a decent reputation for their hardware??
Please give alink to that offer - a link is always nice
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Old 01-22-2016, 10:31 PM   #26
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Why not using a (good)) reverb to simulate a room ?-!
Most that I have heard don't do small room sounds well. One that does is Kjaerhus Classic Reverb, and I do use it sometimes. But it has a very distinctive sound that doesn't work well for everything.
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Old 01-22-2016, 10:41 PM   #27
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Please give alink to that offer - a link is always nice
Sounds like only thru Sunday Jan 24?
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http://store.two-notes.com/index.php

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Old 01-22-2016, 10:53 PM   #28
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@ brainwreck ..... almost missed your Post #21, must have just overlapped the next couple, but just read it. Thanks for the embellishment. Gives me several options to test.
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Old 01-22-2016, 11:27 PM   #29
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If I want an amp sim to be especially lively and realistic I'll mount a $20 micro amp on a stand and split the guitar output to the interface and to the amp, and then play with the pickups facing the 2" speaker. Moving around you can find a sweet spot that gives the same liveliness as playing in front of an amp, and you can move in closer to get a little more of the response of an amp with extra sing and sustain without getting to feedback. You can actually have the volume of the micro amp down very low and get right up to it. The speaker isn't mic'ed and the guitar on the way to the amp sim is still a direct signal, it just has some of that speaker to pickup interaction in the string vibrations.
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:11 AM   #30
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If I want an amp sim to be especially lively and realistic I'll mount a $20 micro amp on a stand and split the guitar output to the interface and to the amp, and then play with the pickups facing the 2" speaker. Moving around you can find a sweet spot that gives the same liveliness as playing in front of an amp, and you can move in closer to get a little more of the response of an amp with extra sing and sustain without getting to feedback. You can actually have the volume of the micro amp down very low and get right up to it. The speaker isn't mic'ed and the guitar on the way to the amp sim is still a direct signal, it just has some of that speaker to pickup interaction in the string vibrations.
This is more or less the same that I used to do also. I split the guitar signal with my DI and send one signal straight to preamp/DAW and other to any old cheap and small amp. This way you get the real deal sustain and even feedback if that is desired. Sometimes howling feedback is EXACTLY what you need

I have to say that nowadays I'm just using real amp with DIY pedals. Way much more fun than with ampsims And I don't even have an expensive amp: just lowly Epiphone Valve JR with Blackstar HT-Dual preamp and some germanium fuzz, wah, delay etc. pedals. My cab is a DIY 1x12" Yamaha electone speaker in old Russian Accordeon case miked with shure PE47 (this mic is real sleeper!) and even this orcish kit sounds so much more pleasing than sims. If I have to use ampsim, I go with S-gear.
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:21 AM   #31
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Why is there so much love on forums for s-gear? I haven't heard anything special out of it, not in the soundcloud demos, not when I demoed it, and not in recordings by others. It sounds as simmy as any sim out there to me. I think it must be the Diva of amp sims.
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Old 01-23-2016, 04:28 AM   #32
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Why is there so much love on forums for s-gear? I haven't heard anything special out of it, not in the soundcloud demos, not when I demoed it, and not in recordings by others. It sounds as simmy as any sim out there to me. I think it must be the Diva of amp sims.
Its a feel thing. I dont think anyone could pick it out in a blind test just by hearing but if you put a guitarist in a booth and feed em a bunch of different ampsims they would more than likely have a better experiernce w S gear.
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Old 01-23-2016, 04:53 AM   #33
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Its a feel thing. I dont think anyone could pick it out in a blind test just by hearing but if you put a guitarist in a booth and feed em a bunch of different ampsims they would more than likely have a better experiernce w S gear.
It's a sim! It has no speaker reactance. I think someone started a hype train, and lots of people got on board.
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:18 AM   #34
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I think it's a medium gain, clean up when you pick light sort of thing with S-gear. It was very reactive and responsive when I demoed it, but no more than some of Brainworx' amps and it simply can't do heavy.

I thought it was great at what it did but it certainly didn't fill my needs.
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:20 AM   #35
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S-Gear sounds and feels really good, honestly! I've been using it for clean and crunch town all the time. Now Thermionik/Recabinet 5 is matching that quality and surpassing it some, so I'm probably gonna move over to all-in with Kazrog stuff. But still, S-Gear is definitely a terrific product. This demo of it blows me away every time:

http://www.scuffhamamps.com/news/art...-custom-57-amp

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and it simply can't do heavy.
It certainly can.

https://soundcloud.com/scuffham-amps...er-demo-tracks
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Old 01-23-2016, 05:57 AM   #36
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S-Gear sounds and feels really good, honestly! I've been using it for clean and crunch town all the time. Now Thermionik/Recabinet 5 is matching that quality and surpassing it some, so I'm probably gonna move over to all-in with Kazrog stuff. But still, S-Gear is definitely a terrific product. This demo of it blows me away every time:

http://www.scuffhamamps.com/news/art...-custom-57-amp



It certainly can.

https://soundcloud.com/scuffham-amps...er-demo-tracks
Well, at least I couldn't get a good heavy sound out of it when I demoed it, but I guess that's my fault, not the plugs'. I should probably just say it wasn't to my taste.

I don't know if Ola really counts in this kind of discussion, though. He's proven he can get his sound out of literally anything, I'm just a mortal man.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:21 AM   #37
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S-Gear sounds and feels really good, honestly! I've been using it for clean and crunch town all the time. Now Thermionik/Recabinet 5 is matching that quality and surpassing it some, so I'm probably gonna move over to all-in with Kazrog stuff. But still, S-Gear is definitely a terrific product. This demo of it blows me away every time:

http://www.scuffhamamps.com/news/art...-custom-57-amp



It certainly can.

https://soundcloud.com/scuffham-amps...er-demo-tracks
Saying that an amp sim feels good is like saying that a virtual knob feels good. What has the world come to?

The guy in the demo can play, but the sound is very simmy, kind of scratchy and plastic sounding, to me. But I'm intrigued by the hype. I wonder how it gets perpetuated.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:28 AM   #38
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I got down to 64 samples at 44.1 on my fast track pro but It still felt really awkward to play.
Which driver version is that?
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:31 AM   #39
richie43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brainwreck View Post
Saying that an amp sim feels good is like saying that a virtual knob feels good. What has the world come to?
Do you play guitar? An amp-sim can "feel" good if the sound coming from the monitors or headphones is reactive, sensitive to the players touch, and inspiring to play. I do know what you mean about the plasticy sound of sims, but as a long-time guitarist and owner of many amps, S-Gear does indeed "feel" more "ampy" to me than any other sim I have used.
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Old 01-23-2016, 06:45 AM   #40
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What tweed amps sound like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQSGw0hMd_I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcQo9p-OHtM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOs_6TtIBTk&t=2m22s

And then listen to that 57 sim demo: http://www.scuffhamamps.com/product/...iers/custom-57

It sounds nothing like a tweed amp.
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