Old 08-14-2008, 09:19 AM   #41
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Default Tempo Mapping For Minor Timing Issues-Yes?/No?

Just getting my head around the idea of tempo mapping. I generally use a midi drum track as a foundation for mostly audio song elements. And, my timing tends to waver a bit here and there on rhythm guitar or bass (nothing major, but noticeable at times). Does tempo mapping have an application in these kind of situations?

Kyle
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Old 08-22-2008, 07:46 AM   #42
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This doesn't really seem to work that well for pieces that change time-signatures a lot.

I just tried to do it with a midi file that switches from 4/8 to 9/8, and the 9/8 sections end up going really low in tempo compared to the 4/8 sections.
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:23 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Amberience View Post
This doesn't really seem to work that well for pieces that change time-signatures a lot.

I just tried to do it with a midi file that switches from 4/8 to 9/8, and the 9/8 sections end up going really low in tempo compared to the 4/8 sections.
My method works for audio tracks recorded without a click. It should work if your timebase is set to time, at least it was last time I used it.

There's a procedure detailed by Youn on how to tempomap midi items here (I haven't used it):

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=36
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:16 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Bevosss View Post
My method works for audio tracks recorded without a click. It should work if your timebase is set to time, at least it was last time I used it.

There's a procedure detailed by Youn on how to tempomap midi items here (I haven't used it):

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=36
I don't think it does work. Not if you've got changing time signatures in your project, and not just one time-signature.
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Old 09-03-2008, 04:28 PM   #45
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Sorry Bev, I'm following your instructions to a T, and it just doesn't work for odd time signatures. It only works if the whole project is in a single time-signature. As soon as you change for a few bars, those few bars are totally out of sync with the click. ie: even though the markers follow the audio, and the tempo markers are dropped in the correct place, the click is way out of sync.
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Amberience View Post
Sorry Bev, I'm following your instructions to a T, and it just doesn't work for odd time signatures. It only works if the whole project is in a single time-signature. As soon as you change for a few bars, those few bars are totally out of sync with the click. ie: even though the markers follow the audio, and the tempo markers are dropped in the correct place, the click is way out of sync.
Ok I'll test that as well soon, to see if there's a solution. Maybe I only tested on 4/4 before (I do use odd time a lot, but maybe not with that combined)...

This is just audio, right? I think I have an idea that might work, we'll see.
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Old 09-06-2008, 01:11 PM   #47
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Yup. Just audio, not midi. Make a project that starts in 11/8, switches to 13/8, and then back into 11/8, because that's what I've been trying here.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:19 AM   #48
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I worked it out and detailed it basically here... I'll make a better tutorial later, post or pm me if there's any problems.

It's a bit of a bitch but it works...
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Old 09-19-2008, 05:01 PM   #49
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Default Reaper 2.5 ...Tempo Mapping Keymap Using Transient Detection with the Keypad

I've made a Tempo Mapping Keymap for fast mapping, that doesn't use markers (although you're able to drop them throughout first for visual clues, they won't interfere.)

Import the keymap (Shift-/, then hit Import), the only keys affected are the Keypad. They are:

************************************************** ********

ZERO - Extend Selection to Next Transient

ONE - Select Back One Transient

THREE - Shift Selection Right One Bar


FOUR - Tempo Map Current Time Signature

SIX - Tempo Map New Time Signature

ENTER - Play Selection

************************************************** ************

A. I use ZERO and ONE to extend the selection to the required bar, and hit ENTER to play the selection (I have repeat on in the transport for easy checking).

B. Then I hit FOUR to create a tempo-mapped measure, or SIX if it's a new time signature

C. Finally I hit THREE, to move the selection over one bar.

D. I then repeat, using ZERO & ONE to trim the selection to the correct transient.


It's very fast and doesn't require much finger movement or impact on your own keymap much.

Hope this works out for you all! Enjoy!


*7 and 9 are mapped to next/previous bar as well (4/4 only).

**One last thing...set your Timebase to Time in Project Properties, or it won't work properly ...you can change it once the mapping is complete.

EDIT: here is an updated keymap, see the following post:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/64578/B...E.ReaperKeyMap
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Old 09-20-2008, 03:42 PM   #50
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Default Updated Keymap

Here's an improved keymap, the actions ZERO and ONE select all items in selected tracks also, which saves you selecting items one by one.

Also, the action mapped to THREE, 'Move Selection Right One Bar', now moves the time selection end point to the nearest transient, which saves you adjusting it most of the time.

It's getting extremely fast now! Just remember to adjust the tab-to-transient slider sensitivity to the situation (CTRL-P, prefs-editing behaviour), and also that as you zoom in, more transients are detected also.

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/66668/B...E.ReaperKeyMap

(Place the keymap into REAPER/keymaps)

To load the keymap, press ? (shift-/), click on Import, and double-click BEAT DETECTIVE.

Here's a list of the Actions Assigned to the Numeric Keypad:

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Old 09-20-2008, 05:08 PM   #51
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Bevoss, could I humbly request a small screencast to see it in action? When you got the time to do it, no rush...Thanks.
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Old 09-28-2008, 02:52 AM   #52
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Newest keymap with some improvements:

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/66668/B...E.ReaperKeyMap
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Old 10-08-2008, 12:14 PM   #53
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Just wondering if all this is still valid and up-to-date. For instance "Markers - time signature markers from time selection" doesn't seem to still be around. Although "Insert time signature - tempo change marker" does. Is that similar?

Another difference seems to be that when I set a midi event to "ignore project tempo" it asks that I tell it what tempo to use, defaulting to 120 bpm. Not sure what to tell it, and I don't see this step outlined here. In fact, in the video example above, the time signature seems to wander between 118 and 124 as the macro is running. I'm not seeing that on my system.

At any rate, I don't seem to wind up with the same results when I use these steps. My midi stuff doesn't seem to wind up lined up with the tempo grid.

My band uses Reaper a lot to record during rehearsals. We use a mix of electronic drums with each drum item running on a different midi channel so all drum components have their own track. The rest of the band is recorded audio. These days we set the metronome and play to it when we want to record. But previously we did not, and I have a bunch of older recordings that don't sync with the project tempo. This makes editing a problem. It would be great to use the techniques outlined here, or something similar to get the tempo grid synched up with the midi stuff, which would automatically synch it to the audio, I assume.

The techniques in this thread look like they should work for that, but some items seem to be for older Reaper versions. What are folks doing now for this?

-f
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:53 PM   #54
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Perhaps out of habit, or simply anal-retentiveness, I almost always create tempo maps by clicking on each measure while holding down ctrl+alt+c as illustrated here: http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...72&postcount=1

In the rare case that I need to tweak timing in between measures I set timebase to beats, edit the tempo envelope while setting events' timebase set to "time" for re-aligning the grid afterwords.

of course, I'd still very VERY much appreciate the ability to modify tempo maps more intuitively with the markers.
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Old 01-12-2009, 12:42 AM   #55
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Maybe try this:


Pls. go here and take a look everybody!

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...800#post272800
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:28 AM   #56
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Hi,

I'm a new Reaper user. I have the same problem described below. "Markers - time signature markers from time selection" does not exist any more. What should I use in it's place for the macro in step 3 of the OPs instructions? Does this process still function as defined by the OP?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flight View Post
Just wondering if all this is still valid and up-to-date. For instance "Markers - time signature markers from time selection" doesn't seem to still be around. Although "Insert time signature - tempo change marker" does. Is that similar?

Another difference seems to be that when I set a midi event to "ignore project tempo" it asks that I tell it what tempo to use, defaulting to 120 bpm. Not sure what to tell it, and I don't see this step outlined here. In fact, in the video example above, the time signature seems to wander between 118 and 124 as the macro is running. I'm not seeing that on my system.

At any rate, I don't seem to wind up with the same results when I use these steps. My midi stuff doesn't seem to wind up lined up with the tempo grid.

My band uses Reaper a lot to record during rehearsals. We use a mix of electronic drums with each drum item running on a different midi channel so all drum components have their own track. The rest of the band is recorded audio. These days we set the metronome and play to it when we want to record. But previously we did not, and I have a bunch of older recordings that don't sync with the project tempo. This makes editing a problem. It would be great to use the techniques outlined here, or something similar to get the tempo grid synched up with the midi stuff, which would automatically synch it to the audio, I assume.

The techniques in this thread look like they should work for that, but some items seem to be for older Reaper versions. What are folks doing now for this?

-f
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:58 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomTama View Post
Hi,

I'm a new Reaper user. I have the same problem described below. "Markers - time signature markers from time selection" does not exist any more. What should I use in it's place for the macro in step 3 of the OPs instructions? Does this process still function as defined by the OP?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
You just have to do a little digging. The time sig from time selection is still there. Open the actions window, enter "from time selection" in the filter edit box and you will see what it is now.

But try my little app anyway. Just made it last night:


http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...800#post272800
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Old 01-12-2009, 11:01 AM   #58
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I figured this out myself. Instead of "Markers - time signature markers from time selection" in the latest version of Reaper you need to use "Create measure from time selection [detect tempo]....

This now works beautifully!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by TomTama View Post
Hi,

I'm a new Reaper user. I have the same problem described below. "Markers - time signature markers from time selection" does not exist any more. What should I use in it's place for the macro in step 3 of the OPs instructions? Does this process still function as defined by the OP?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:22 PM   #59
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Hey TomTama,

Thanks for working this out. I'd also been scratching my head over the original instructions, but now it works perfectly.

Mark
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:02 AM   #60
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Downloaded the newest tempo mapping keymap and version 2.56 of reaper.

I tried importing the tempo mapping keymap and failed. gonna cry

went to action list, clicked import, found the keymap file (which i put in the keymap directory), and clicked "open" to import it, but when i looked at my action list , it wasn't there. I searched. Not there. Is there something else i need to do? ??? <<< If I remember correctly I successfully had this keymap working a few reaper generations ago.>>>
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Old 03-09-2009, 04:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by kristen View Post
Downloaded the newest tempo mapping keymap and version 2.56 of reaper.

I tried importing the tempo mapping keymap and failed. gonna cry

went to action list, clicked import, found the keymap file (which i put in the keymap directory), and clicked "open" to import it, but when i looked at my action list , it wasn't there. I searched. Not there. Is there something else i need to do? ??? <<< If I remember correctly I successfully had this keymap working a few reaper generations ago.>>>
I just tried that, it's there...mapped to the (`) key. Btw you may want to remove the last action 'Markers: next marker/project end' if you don't have the 'edit cursor to start on change of time selection' checked. The other one mapped to numpad Zero was for that purpose, but now it's action has changed to loop selection (instead of time selection)...weird.

Edit: I uploaded a modified map with the correct change here, I called it tempo mapping and it's still mapped to the (`) key and is tested working in the Reaper3 beta (remember to set your timebase to TIME in project properties or it goes haywire).
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:30 AM   #62
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I just got this to work properly for the first time.

That is scandalously easy!



Thank you so much Bevosss.
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Old 03-29-2009, 12:18 PM   #63
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Default But how do you do this with Multiple Audio Samples?

Your instructions above make sense to me. I'm very much a beginner to Reaper at this time and like it's concept of a powerful yet user friendly DAW.

Here's my problem with this DAW. I like to make remixes and mashups. To make a mashup, you combine parts of 2 or more songs to result in an interesting hybrid.

Your instructions above only gives us the process of how to tempo map ONE song or audio file. How does one handle tempo mapping if you have 2 or more "songs" or audio samples (that have not been tempo mapped) to work with.

Also, after a sample has been tempo mapped, one may want to use only certain parts of that sample to join to the project. How does Reaper do this while each part of the sample keeps its tempo map?

If there isn't a good solution to this question, then I'm sorry to say that I feel Reaper is a weak DAW, as this is really one very basic function a DAW should have.

Dean.

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Old 03-29-2009, 06:30 PM   #64
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...
Could you explain to me how remixes are done in other daws? Id like to know where reaper falls short. I'm looking for most efficient way to work with tempo based mucic.
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:20 PM   #65
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Hi Guitar Keyes,

Well, please keep in mind that I only started working with DAW's in January, so I'm still very new.

I was introduced to DAW's via Ableton Live 7. I was actually at a Guitar Center looking at workstation keyboards and talked with the salesman about what my ambitions were, ie making remixes and mashups. He recommended Ableton software to me, and he made such a strong case about it that I made the purchase then and there.

Ableton Live does have the facility to easily make remixes and mashups. The first step after you import any audio file is warping. This is done in a clip window at the bottom, and a warp marker is placed at regular intervals to ensure the sample is tempo mapped. After it's tempo mapped, you can do anything to the sample, or parts of the sample in the main arrangement view and it'll stay in tempo with the rest of your project. Any other audio sample is treated the same way. It's very straight forward once you've learned it.

I was researching other DAW's and noticed numerous mentions of REAPER, so I checked it out. I was really surprised about it's lack of a sample warping function. It would be very difficult to use more than one musical sample in REAPER and still be in accurate sync.

Also, there isn't a video tutorials about this on the net, all the tutorials I've found have been about advanced things like setting up hardware this and that. No tutorials for the normal people that just want to learn how to make some music using the software.

You get tutorials up the wazoo with Ableton.

Cubase, Logic, Pro tools have an audio warping function. Acid Pro has a "beat mapper".


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Old 03-30-2009, 04:30 PM   #66
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Ableton Live does have the facility to easily make remixes and mashups. The first step after you import any audio file is warping. This is done in a clip window at the bottom, and a warp marker is placed at regular intervals to ensure the sample is tempo mapped. After it's tempo mapped, you can do anything to the sample, or parts of the sample in the main arrangement view and it'll stay in tempo with the rest of your project. Any other audio sample is treated the same way. It's very straight forward once you've learned it.
Ableton is great for automatically mapping out fixed-time 4/4 music (and then manipulating it), but pretty inaccurate with anything that varies tempo ie not recorded to a click, or has changing time signatures.

This thread is really directed at that scenario, eg a rock song that pushes /pulls a bit, or a captured live jam that you want to have a click play to in perfect time.

Since you own Live, your best bet would be imo to Rewire or Rearoute Live to Reaper, that way you get the best of both worlds and everything is synced. Do your mapping in Live, and the rendering/editing/mixing in Reaper.
Quote:

Also, there isn't a video tutorials about this on the net, all the tutorials I've found have been about advanced things like setting up hardware this and that. No tutorials for the normal people that just want to learn how to make some music using the software.

You get tutorials up the wazoo with Ableton.
This is true, they have great videos available from within the daw itself...obviously they put some of the extra cash they regularly charge into that! Reaper has quite a few videos now, you have to look a lot harder for them though...nothing in that kinda direction you're after yet.

There's a few people using Reaper for electronic music, it has pretty much the best time-stretching algorithms (elastique2)...why not post a thread on the general discussion page to get them to chime in how they do it?
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:40 AM   #67
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*You want your timebase set to time for this (in project properties).
I just tried with Reaper 3.beta2b without any success and I did not set the above parameter as I could not find it.

Where in the project properties in detail can we find this parameter?
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:46 AM   #68
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I just tried with Reaper 3.beta2b without any success and I did not set the above parameter as I could not find it.

Where in the project properties in detail can we find this parameter?
It is in the project settings window (alt+enter), and per item properties(F2).
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:52 AM   #69
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Thanks, I found and changed the parameter now, but still it seems not to work here. Did anybody have success with 3.beta2b?

2.58 works fine, it seems to be only a beta problem, no problem, we can use until then 2.58 for such jobs.

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Old 04-19-2009, 04:09 AM   #70
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Thanks, I found and changed the parameter now, but still it seems not to work here. Did anybody have success with 3.beta2b?

2.58 works fine, it seems to be only a beta problem, no problem, we can use until then 2.58 for such jobs.
Which parts not working? I'll check it out if you can give me some more details. There was a change to the tempo actions, which I adjusted to in a later post.

Here's the latest post which was working on a beta version:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...1&postcount=61

Edit: seems to be working ok here in the latest beta...let me know where it's not working for you.
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Old 04-27-2009, 08:13 AM   #71
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How do i add drum loops to a project that has been tempomapped? I'm having a lot of trouble because the grid changes at every tempo change so I can't just drag out my drum loop. If the grid didn't warp I could just add drums loops to a project by dragging it out. What good is it to tempo map a project if it is so darn hard to sequence audio afterwards.
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:25 PM   #72
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How do i add drum loops to a project that has been tempomapped? I'm having a lot of trouble because the grid changes at every tempo change so I can't just drag out my drum loop. If the grid didn't warp I could just add drums loops to a project by dragging it out. What good is it to tempo map a project if it is so darn hard to sequence audio afterwards.
Well, the tempo mapping in this thread is so you can apply a click track to tracks not recorded with a click, for the purposes of overdubbing (make sure the timebase is set to time in project properties).

As for dragging out loops in a tempo mapped song, I see the problem...it will overshoot or undershoot the next measure because of the tempo change. It really needs a new mode of painting or pasting that fits the copied loop to the next measure, that would be a fast workflow for electronic-type music.

I think the fastest way at present is to paste an item at each measure and alt-drag the end of the item to the next measure start (with snap enabled). Possibly there could be a fast macro for it (given some thought).

Most well recorded music should be fairly tempo constant though, so after the first alt-drag to fit the first measure, you may be able to glue the loop and drag it out anyway.
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:30 AM   #73
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Well, the tempo mapping in this thread is so you can apply a click track to tracks not recorded with a click, for the purposes of overdubbing (make sure the timebase is set to time in project properties).

As for dragging out loops in a tempo mapped song, I see the problem...it will overshoot or undershoot the next measure because of the tempo change. It really needs a new mode of painting or pasting that fits the copied loop to the next measure, that would be a fast workflow for electronic-type music.

I think the fastest way at present is to paste an item at each measure and alt-drag the end of the item to the next measure start (with snap enabled). Possibly there could be a fast macro for it (given some thought).

Most well recorded music should be fairly tempo constant though, so after the first alt-drag to fit the first measure, you may be able to glue the loop and drag it out anyway.
Oh I see. For overdubbing purposes. Ok, Maybe I should start a new thread then about this. I had already thought about this and maybe this could work if the grid didn't change. Rather the playback cursor sped up or slowed down to accomodate for tempo changes. That would work and then alow the sequencing grid to remain constant and allow users easy copy and paste functions to a dynamically tempo charged project. And also of course easily dragging out loops through tempo changes.

I wonder if there is a way to put this into a macro. The alt drag was the way I was doing it before but it's so tedious. Is there any actions that deal with stretching an item? Cause thats the only way I could see this becoming automatic. Also, I could see this working well for rock music too not just electronic because it would be like having a dynamic drummer following my tempo changes. That would be sweet.
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Old 06-03-2009, 10:10 PM   #74
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Thanks Bevosss, this was just what I was looking for.

(Using Create measure from time selection (detect tempo))

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Old 06-05-2009, 08:56 PM   #75
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I set my metronome to play only on the first beat, then I play the song. I hear some beats are a little late or early. What's the easiest way to make the adjustment?

Ideally I could just reposition the tempo marker, but it doesn't work that way because the tempo is not adjusted on the fly and my click doesn't change. But programming that sounds tricky, so I have a simpler idea:

It would be cool if I could make regular markers, then have the metronome trigger on each one on playback. Then I could slip the markers until I get the timing just right, and finally insert my perfect tempo markers using Bevosss' macro. Reaper wouldn't have to do any calculating this way, just trigger a sound at each marker.

Also, I can't find a way to delete all the tempo markers at once like I can regular markers. Is there a way?

Thanks, and I hope my explanation was understandable.

<edit> Well, it looks like other folks have found workarounds for adjusting one tempo marker but I don't understand them yet.

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Old 06-07-2009, 03:42 AM   #76
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It would be cool if I could make regular markers, then have the metronome trigger on each one on playback. Then I could slip the markers until I get the timing just right, and finally insert my perfect tempo markers using Bevosss' macro. Reaper wouldn't have to do any calculating this way, just trigger a sound at each marker.
There is an alternative way for that...select a single click or hat file, and instead of dropping markers as you play through the song, paste this click sample at those points instead. Move them around until you are happy with them, then select all the click samples and run this action:

Xnakios Extensions:create markers from selected items (name by take source file name)

(You'll need the Xenakios extension plugin installed in Reaper/plugins)
Quote:



Also, I can't find a way to delete all the tempo markers at once like I can regular markers. Is there a way?
Open the master track, show the master tempo envelope,then select all points and delete them.
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Old 06-07-2009, 06:00 AM   #77
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That sounds perfect, I'll give it a try!
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Old 06-08-2009, 08:39 PM   #78
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Running the Xenakios extension, I get a runtime error, "This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way."

Maybe tomorrow I'll try it with an older version of reaper, or try the bleeding edge extensions.

<edit> I tried both and still got the same error. Dangit!

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Old 06-09-2009, 05:08 AM   #79
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Running the Xenakios extension, I get a runtime error, "This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way."

Maybe tomorrow I'll try it with an older version of reaper, or try the bleeding edge extensions.

<edit> I tried both and still got the same error. Dangit!
What do you mean by 'running the xenakios extension'?

Once downloaded, you just paste it into REAPER/plugins (with REAPER closed).

Start REAPER, then the 'marker' action (and all Xenakios actions) should be searchable in the actions window ( ? or shift-/).

Have you done the above, and tried pasting click samples through the song yet? Where exactly is it breaking down?
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Old 06-09-2009, 06:55 AM   #80
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Yes. I have a track full of midi notes. (I didn't paste them, I created them by clicking on the virtual midi keyboard with my mouse as the song played. Using my regular keyboard was too laggy for some reason. The notes are routed to the Microsoft GS Wavetable synth, not to a VSTi.)

I double click the midi track to open the midi editor. Then I Ctrl-A to select all the midi notes.

Then I go to Actions, show action list. In the filter I type "markers". At the bottom of the list I select "Xenakios Extensions : Create markers from selected items (name by take source file name) 53515", then I click "Run". That's when I get the fatal error.

<edit>There's no way to make a macro for it either because the necessary navigation commands don't exist in the actions list. I can't even tab to the beginning of notes or insert markers in the midi editor.

I need to:
Open the midi editor
Home
Navigate/Select Next Note
Navigate/Move edit cursor to start of selection
Change focus to main window (because you can't insert a marker in midi editor)
Insert marker
Change focus back to midi editor
Navigate/Select Next Note
Navigate/Move edit cursor to start of selection
etc.

I can't do that 129 times.

Last edited by JHughes; 06-09-2009 at 07:56 AM.
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