Old 09-04-2014, 10:37 AM   #41
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I'm having a really hard time believing that it could be the audio mixdown or audio codec and not this complicated "mastering" chain involving layers of saturation, compression, excitation, and brickwall limiting.

Hear hoofbeats and think horses, not zebras.

Don't try to fix the mix during "mastering", because that's not what mastering is. If your "pre-mastered" mix doesn't sound at least decent on multiple devices (not just your monitors, but headphones, car stereo, cell phone, etc) then it isn't a good mix to begin with.

Im thinking this also most likely. The volume wavering described could very easily be compressor/limiter pumping.
The guitars relative volume could easily just be the way its translating to a system with a different midrange response.

Lord knows Ive went through this
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Old 09-04-2014, 10:51 AM   #42
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ive been using reaper for a good 3 years now and never encountered this problem untill I upgraded my computer from a 2000 win xp to a 2013 win 7 the daw works and Im able to pack on the plugin without freezing or latency BUT when i master my tracks sound kick fucking ass on my monitors but when i render and toss them on my ipod and play them back in my truck all of a sudden my guitars sound 4 db lower and the sound waves up and down volume wise like someone is turning up and down the volume internally... can anyone help me!

My mastering chain:
1. Spectral analyzer
2. ReaQ (Parametric EQ - High Pass Filter)
3. FerricTDS (Tape Emulation)
4. ReaQ (Parametric EQ - High Shelving Filter)
5. Waves Maxx Bass (Bass Enhancer)
6. DestinymkII (Compressor)
7. Waves Stereo imager (Stereo Widener)
8. CS112m (final EQ, high pass)
9. ReaXComp (Multiband Compressor)
10. JS (Soft Clipper)
11. Loud Max (Brickwall Limiter)

what the hell am i doing wrong? and why is my master sounding amateur compared to masters done previously on my old computer?
You should be able to do the job with ReaEQ, ReaComp and Loud Max. Keep it simple. If it's still not satisfactory, remix it. Or perhaps employ an experienced mastering engineer.
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Old 09-04-2014, 12:51 PM   #43
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Smells like trolling spirit...
A WHAT??????
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:04 PM   #44
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I'm having a really hard time believing that it could be the audio mixdown or audio codec and not this complicated "mastering" chain involving layers of saturation, compression, excitation, and brickwall limiting.

Hear hoofbeats and think horses, not zebras.

Don't try to fix the mix during "mastering", because that's not what mastering is. If your "pre-mastered" mix doesn't sound at least decent on multiple devices (not just your monitors, but headphones, car stereo, cell phone, etc) then it isn't a good mix to begin with.
There is honestly nothing wrong with my mix... several mastering engineers use more than just one compressor, one eq etc... the pre mix is just how i want it... believe me Ive never had a problem with my mixes or masters for the last 7 years it's now that im on a new computer with an updated system that i seem to be encountering this issue.. each item adds a subtle (very subtle) addition to the mix and the only reason i use it on a final master is resources.. after about 29 tracks the system starts to lag and chop and freeze due to so many tracks with different aux and fx plug ins being used.. if I up'd my ram to 8 gb i would be able to apply everything to each individual track to get it to where all i would need is a single eq single compressor and one limiter.. but we all have our ways of mixing and mastering that's why there are forums like this to help each other... and I appreciate all of it. and after keeping the bitrate and freq the same my master is great.. so the issue was the encoding from 48khz to 41khz with 24bit to 16 bit... I kept it all at 41khz 16 bit and my masters today are right were i want them.. as they should sound.. on all devices... monitors..truck...ipod...boombox... even a portable cd player...
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:07 PM   #45
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Im thinking this also most likely. The volume wavering described could very easily be compressor/limiter pumping.
The guitars relative volume could easily just be the way its translating to a system with a different midrange response.

Lord knows Ive went through this
Ive heard this term pumping before.. what is that and how would i correct that? is it that i have my threshhold set to high? cuz my thresh is only between 1.0 amd 2.5 on each band of my compressor and my limitor is between 3 and 4 db threshhold
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:16 PM   #46
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Ive heard this term pumping before.. what is that and how would i correct that? is it that i have my threshhold set to high? cuz my thresh is only between 1.0 amd 2.5 on each band of my compressor and my limitor is between 3 and 4 db threshhold
you can get rid of pumping in disabling all of your mastering plugins. simple.

I would like to hear some clip of the unmastered song and the mastered (with this incredible chain on the 2 buss) song.

can you please upload these 2 clips and gives us something to hear?? when we hear it, we can say what is wrong. everything else is shooting in the dark.
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:21 PM   #47
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You should be able to do the job with ReaEQ, ReaComp and Loud Max. Keep it simple. If it's still not satisfactory, remix it. Or perhaps employ an experienced mastering engineer.
believe me sometimes thats all you need but other times wou may need just a bit more... remember you can cook with only salt and pepper but sometimes adding garlic and other spices can take your dish from good to great.. give it a try in subtle small doses...
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:28 PM   #48
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Ive heard this term pumping before.. what is that and how would i correct that? is it that i have my threshhold set to high? cuz my thresh is only between 1.0 amd 2.5 on each band of my compressor and my limitor is between 3 and 4 db threshhold

All them compressors..and all that tweaking of said compressors and you've never heard one pump?

In 7 years?
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:33 PM   #49
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you can get rid of pumping in disabling all of your mastering plugins. simple.

I would like to hear some clip of the unmastered song and the mastered (with this incredible chain on the 2 buss) song.

can you please upload these 2 clips and gives us something to hear?? when we hear it, we can say what is wrong. everything else is shooting in the dark.
compression is a natural part of mastering.. you know this i know this.. we all know this.. its not like im using each compressor to shove the sound to its very peak.. the first one to to add suble gluing thats all just slight (VERY SLIGHT) compression to glue it all together.. every book and vid i've read on the subject always starts with a sidebus(ssl) compressor to glue you track together...if you do that in pre master great ... i do this first instead of on the mixdown its a resource saver... after that the multi band does all the work and the limiter has a slight thresh of 1-2 db but its only purpose is to keet it from going over -0.1 db that's all.. like i said previously to another helpful person you guys are very helpful all this is great info and it did help me figure out my issue.. but you can't cook with just salt and pepper sometimes a little spice and garlic will that your dish up a notch...
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:37 PM   #50
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I'd like to know how you get to 41khz?

Take your mix and dither it down from 48khz THEN bring that file into a new project and THEN apply your mastering chain.
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:39 PM   #51
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compression is a natural part of mastering.. you know this i know this.. we all know this.. its not like im using each compressor to shove the sound to its very peak.. the first one to to add suble gluing thats all just slight (VERY SLIGHT) compression to glue it all together.. every book and vid i've read on the subject always starts with a sidebus(ssl) compressor to glue you track together...if you do that in pre master great ... i do this first instead of on the mixdown its a resource saver... after that the multi band does all the work and the limiter has a slight thresh of 1-2 db but its only purpose is to keet it from going over -0.1 db that's all.. like i said previously to another helpful person you guys are very helpful all this is great info and it did help me figure out my issue.. but you can't cook with just salt and pepper sometimes a little spice and garlic will that your dish up a notch...
yes, you always talk and talk. how about posting some clips so that we all can hear the problem??? why dont you post something to let us have a listen.

honestly I doubt your knowledge. sounds harsh, but lets face the situation: you come up with a more than adventurous mastering-chain, tell us your mixes are stellar and refuse to let us hear something.

you shouldnt wonder about me being suspicious. so post something and we all know what we are talking about. without anything to put hands on there is not much sense in this discussion. you want help? show us the problem.
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:41 PM   #52
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All them compressors..and all that tweaking of said compressors and you've never heard one pump?

In 7 years?
im not familiar with the term pump... so i couldn't say if i have or not if that is the sound of the volume going up then down then yeah ive heard it.. I tried what another member suggested and kept the sample and bitrates the same and it fixed my problem.. no wavering volume no lowered guitars.. my master sounds great on my monitors and in my truck now.. but can you explain what pumping is cuz Ive never heard the term... maybe i call it sometinh gdifferent
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:44 PM   #53
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I'd like to know how you get to 41khz?

Take your mix and dither it down from 48khz THEN bring that file into a new project and THEN apply your mastering chain.
44.1 it was a typo...
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:47 PM   #54
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Strange....
That's what I was thinking. I'm wondering if there's something wrong with the speakers.
If that were the case, shouldn't it sound equally bad everywhere?

Try rendering a mono mix, and see how that sounds in your truck.
oh well i only listen betweent the monitors and my truck first.. its not till that test is passedt that i move on to boombox and other lower forms of listening to make sure it translates well across the board... but yeah it was the rendering thing.. the conversion of khz and bits was messing up somehow...
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:51 PM   #55
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... but yeah it was the rendering thing.. the conversion of khz and bits was messing up somehow...
never ever.
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:53 PM   #56
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im not familiar with the term pump... so i couldn't say if i have or not if that is the sound of the volume going up then down then yeah ive heard it..
Yeah, you've heard it....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumping_%28audio%29
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Old 09-04-2014, 01:54 PM   #57
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yes, you always talk and talk. how about posting some clips so that we all can hear the problem??? why dont you post something to let us have a listen.

honestly I doubt your knowledge. sounds harsh, but lets face the situation: you come up with a more than adventurous mastering-chain, tell us your mixes are stellar and refuse to let us hear something.

you shouldnt wonder about me being suspicious. so post something and we all know what we are talking about. without anything to put hands on there is not much sense in this discussion. you want help? show us the problem.
Oh I would be happy to post the tracks.. but answer me this question.... how are you gonna hear what;s coming outta my monitors and my truck speakers? you may not hear what i hear cuz your monitors are different your set up and so forth.. i mean honestly maybe I should doubt you knowledge as well I dont know what you've done either.. Im not here to defend myself im just here to get insight on my problem which KAWIN was more than helpful enough to answer... it was the rendering (changing the khz and bitrate) kept them constant and the same and voila! fixed.. but ill post old and new for everyone... so they can see the differences... NOW.. how to do that is my next question as the attachment option doesn't include a wav or mp3 option
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:05 PM   #58
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how to do that is my next question as the attachment option doesn't include a wav or mp3 option
https://stash.reaper.fm/
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:05 PM   #59
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Really quick.. Thanks to everyone who jumped to my aid.. you guys are fantastic.. BIG thanks to KAWIN (you solved my issue) Otto Tune ( the online rendering helped my hear what I was gonna hear after the render completed BIG HELP) tHEQUIETROOM (also same helped me retraced my steps) and Donchilcott for the reference material.. Ill be loading all the versions so you can hear them one whiteaxxx tells me how as Ive never used this forum before this issue and the attachment option doesn't include mp3 or wav
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:08 PM   #60
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Wanted to share this piece by ian shepherd in regards to my fabulous FX chain

Use multiple stages of compression, with low gain reductions
Once again, the MusicRadar post does this, but doesn’t tell you, or say why. Heavy compression is always audible. Use compression gently at different stages throughout the recording and mixing process – some on the instrument when playing, some in the mix, maybe some on the mix buss for some styles of music, then some gentle multi-band, and finally some mild limiting. These gradual increases will allow you to get higher average levels without killing the music.

reference the AT different stages and gently....
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:09 PM   #61
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Oh I would be happy to post the tracks.. but answer me this question.... how are you gonna hear what;s coming outta my monitors and my truck speakers? you may not hear what i hear cuz your monitors are different your set up and so forth.. i mean honestly maybe I should doubt you knowledge as well I dont know what you've done either.. Im not here to defend myself im just here to get insight on my problem which KAWIN was more than helpful enough to answer... it was the rendering (changing the khz and bitrate) kept them constant and the same and voila! fixed.. but ill post old and new for everyone... so they can see the differences... NOW.. how to do that is my next question as the attachment option doesn't include a wav or mp3 option
pumping doesnt come from the speakers or from the samplingrate.

I think you dont want to admit that the problem was caused by your mixing skills with your mastering chain. thats the reason why you dont post.

and for my abilities: you can easily google me under my nickname here and you certainly will find some of my work on the internet. so ...
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:10 PM   #62
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which one do i download or do i downoad all of them?
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:20 PM   #63
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pumping doesnt come from the speakers or from the samplingrate.

I think you dont want to admit that the problem was caused by your mixing skills with your mastering chain. thats the reason why you dont post.

and for my abilities: you can easily google me under my nickname here and you certainly will find some of my work on the internet. so ...
YOu're welcome to google my work.. Christopher Headcase or Epitaph Romance... the only reason i didN'T post any of the tracks is cuz no one asked me to.. im not shy and certainly have nothing to hide... Ill post the both the screwed render and the new render.. would you like the raw mix too? I checked you out.. your music is good.. the master lacks warmth and volume at best but its a good mix.. really good.. you know your stuff...but that is my opinion... my stuf fis way different from yurs and our styles in everything are totally different.. but im open to yur feedback what ever it could be
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:27 PM   #64
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YOu're welcome to google my work.. Christopher Headcase or Epitaph Romance... the only reason i didN'T post any of the tracks is cuz no one asked me to.. im not shy and certainly have nothing to hide... Ill post the both the screwed render and the new render.. would you like the raw mix too? I checked you out.. your music is good.. the master lacks warmth and volume at best but its a good mix.. really good.. you know your stuff...but that is my opinion... my stuf fis way different from yurs and our styles in everything are totally different.. but im open to yur feedback what ever it could be
found you on reverbnation.

what I thought, its pumping all over the place. what you consider to be volume is a complete lack of dynamics. all your mixes pump like hell and not in a controlled way. the dynamic range even if its one acoustic guitar is at best 6db. its your chain that cuases these problems. your mixes arent any good, and the mastering is catastrophic. my opinion and the solution to your problem: turn everything down. it pumps like top40 am radio. and this is not a good thing. if you want volume: turn up the volume on your amplifier but dont make your mastering louder. leave that to Skrillex or Red Hot Chili Peppers.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:28 PM   #65
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Yup that's exactly what it was doing... but i think the codex from the rendering was causing it considering i made no changes to the compression settings but when i made the changes to the rendering settings the issue was resolved and no more pumping was apparent...
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:36 PM   #66
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found you on reverbnation.

what I thought, its pumping all over the place. what you consider to be volume is a complete lack of dynamics. all your mixes pump like hell and not in a controlled way. the dynamic range even if its one acoustic guitar is at best 6db. its your chain that cuases these problems. your mixes arent any good,l and the mastering is catastrophic. my opinion and the solution to your problem: turn everything down. it pumps like top40 am radio. and this is not a good thing. if you want volume: turn up the volume on your amplifier but dont make your mastering louder. leave that to Skrillex or Red Hot Chili Peppers.
all that is old and not done in reaper... and you're right those mixes are catastrophic.. and not any good.. but again not done in reaper.. they were done the hard way with actually hard shell tech.. not the digital vsts you kids today use hahahahaha but yeah i could go back and fix hem now but i would rather put up new ones and show the development and value ive grown into... but also not all of them are terrible.. they show progression... but mine do have warmth and color and definietly volume... if you think your work is the best it could possibly be then you too are missing something
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:43 PM   #67
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all that is old and not done in reaper... and you're right those mixes are catastrophic.. and not any good.. but again not done in reaper.. they were done the hard way with actually hard shell tech.. not the digital vsts you kids today use hahahahaha but yeah i could go back and fix hem now but i would rather put up new ones and show the development and value ive grown into... but also not all of them are terrible.. they show progression... but mine do have warmth and color and definietly volume... if you think your work is the best it could possibly be then you too are missing something
you kids is 57. making music since 1969. so dont tell me ...

your mixes pump. and your new mixes do pump as hell, I am sure. and you dont understand the term volume. volume comes from the amplifier, not from the mix. and your "warmth" is sending everything through saturation and then turn down the highend because saturation sucks.

ok, do what you like. if you think that is the way to go ...
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:48 PM   #68
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you kids is 57. making music since 1969. so dont tell me ...

your mixes pump. and your new mixes do pump as hell, I am sure. and you dont understand the term volume. volume comes from the amplifier, not from the mix. and your "warmth" is sending everything through saturation and then turn down the highend because saturation sucks.

ok, do what you like. if you think that is the way to go ...
THE KID thing was a joke.. get a sense of humor.. and yes i admitted that what you heard is all older and not very good.. i will post my new mixes and my new masters and you are welcome to provide your feedback.. I encourage it.. you have your sound and i have mine.. mine may not be the norm and yours might be outdated.. but we'll agree to disagree... I didn't come here to debate you i simply came here to get help with my problem and i got it.. without you criticism of my fx chain... but thank you...
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:50 PM   #69
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which one do i download or do i downoad all of them?
I wasn't suggesting that you download anything; I was suggesting the stash as a place to upload to.
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Old 09-04-2014, 02:51 PM   #70
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Thank you all for your time and help!
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:01 PM   #71
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I wasn't suggesting that you download anything; I was suggesting the stash as a place to upload to.
OH.. cool i didn't know.. you just left the link you didn't specify how to use it... thanks..
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Old 09-04-2014, 03:35 PM   #72
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Headcase, take some advice here and listen critically. Sure, we don't hear your mixes on your monitors or in your truck. And I'm not gonna get on an airplane just to do so. But do you seriously believe that a forum from of audio professionals don't have a similar calibre of equipment in appropriate rooms?

I found your mixes as well. They are pumping, immensely. Stacking numerous compressors with different settings doesn't fix this. If you have 1db gain reduction each on 4 plugins, the total at some point is going to be 4db of gain reduction. Sure, not necessarily for as long as if you had just one plugin with 4db gain reduction, or it could be more, it depends on your settings. But either way, you have 4db of gain reduction.
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Old 09-04-2014, 04:04 PM   #73
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I found your mixes as well. They are pumping, immensely.
I haven't listened. I'm not going to. Still.... ever heard of the benefit of the doubt?
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i admitted that what you heard is all older and not very good..
The material now being discussed is not the subject of the thread. Can we give headcase915 a chance to post that before we conclude that his mix is shite.... without actually having heard it? Can we?

Last edited by Fex; 09-04-2014 at 04:27 PM. Reason: Misattributed quote
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Old 09-04-2014, 04:24 PM   #74
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Dear Headcase915 -

Could you please provide links to your most current mix. Preferably, the two you've been discussing in this thread.

The one that was not working, and the one that is the result of the info you gained here, and which you find to be "perfectly your sound".

This will help us, and you.

Thanks.
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:40 PM   #75
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Headcase, take some advice here and listen critically. Sure, we don't hear your mixes on your monitors or in your truck. And I'm not gonna get on an airplane just to do so. But do you seriously believe that a forum from of audio professionals don't have a similar calibre of equipment in appropriate rooms?

I found your mixes as well. They are pumping, immensely. Stacking numerous compressors with different settings doesn't fix this. If you have 1db gain reduction each on 4 plugins, the total at some point is going to be 4db of gain reduction. Sure, not necessarily for as long as if you had just one plugin with 4db gain reduction, or it could be more, it depends on your settings. But either way, you have 4db of gain reduction.
The mixes found are old as I stated and as I stated before I do appreciate all the info im being given.. my simple point of the thread was on my current master... I don't hear any pumping on the master while in reaper.. it was only till i rendered and placed it on my ipod that i heard the pumping.. i believed that there was something about the rendering process that was causing the compressors to work harder than what i was asking them to do.. i assumed it was also possible that what ASIO4all was allowing me to hear something different from the final render being played in a different medium.. my acoustic performances found on reverbnation.com/christopherheadcase are not recorded mixed or mastered in reaper they were done in cool edit2 and the tools in cool edit 2 although useful they are primative at best... again im not trying to start a debate im merely trying to explain myself as far as the tools I am using compared to the tools i WAS using. If my original (COOLEdit 2) mixes are pumping I can't hear the waving in and out they sound at a constant volume to me except to the slight volume automations i placed at certain intervals or a rotary speaker effect on my guitar at certain sections (which in retrospect i think was a bad artistic decision) but none the less i will be loading my mix, pumping master and current master although Ive converted to
mp3 which may alter things as well i cant say for sure..
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:47 PM   #76
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i will be loading my mix, pumping master and current master although Ive converted to mp3 which may alter things as well i cant say for sure..
Great!

Can't wait to check out what all the fuss was about. Also, it will be interesting to hear the result of your mastering chain.

Looking forward.
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:48 PM   #77
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Dear Headcase915 -

Could you please provide links to your most current mix. Preferably, the two you've been discussing in this thread.

The one that was not working, and the one that is the result of the info you gained here, and which you find to be "perfectly your sound".

This will help us, and you.

Thanks.
thank you for the support Dea-m,an I appreciate it
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Old 09-04-2014, 05:58 PM   #78
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ok so I think i copied the right code from stash... here is the mix, the problem master in discussion and the master that i conclude is best for now... now I converted them to mp3 so i cant say that conversion may have changed the quality or anything else.. i rather work with wav as mp3 is such a lossy format...

https://stash.reaper.fm/21734/camp%20mix.mp3

https://stash.reaper.fm/21736/camp4%20master.mp3

https://stash.reaper.fm/21737/camp%205%20master.mp3

now Im not sure if there is pumping on the last one if there is I can't here it.. the volume of the guitars was what was in question and on 4 it waves up and down but 5 sounds constant to me... but maybe that could be after hearing it over and over again for days... Im a do it again and again till its right so any suggestions on mix to master to render I will welcome them.
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Old 09-04-2014, 06:48 PM   #79
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I was waiting until I actually heard the recordings in question before posting...

From the statements and questions in your own posts, to the mixing, and then those "masters"...just to put it plain, the inexperience shows.

And yes, they pump...a lot. You have way too much compression in that frightful "mastering chain". Knew that from the first read, and hearing them only confirmed that.

There is one essential rule to recording and mixing - Shit in, shit out. You need to go back to basics, and really pay attention to every step of the sound. If something is not right, fix it - if it's not needed, then don't do it.
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Old 09-04-2014, 07:00 PM   #80
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Well written.
Well arranged.
Well performed.
Well recorded.
Mixed by chimpanzees.
Mastered? Not.
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