Old 05-07-2014, 10:59 AM   #81
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thanks 4x4,
but I'm not the decision maker here... I'm only a pixel pusher..
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:30 AM   #82
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yeah I know I m not either just giving my personal opinon
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:53 AM   #83
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All of these ideas sound great to me. I like the clip LED in the corner and the LR meters stacked.

Right-click is easy enough for a settings page. But what settings do we need other than the reference level?

I really want to keep it simple and make babiuk's meter first. If I have time, I'll gladly go crazy with features for you guys. But like I said, I have a lot of other things going on right now. What I'll most likely do is throw the code in a zip file and upload it somewhere for you all to mess around with I'll be using the WDL-OL framework.

Coding starts this weekend.
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:30 PM   #84
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d.bop.... yeah hey I feel for ya! too many heads spoil the soup, eh?

I'd be happy to mess with the code but I'm simply not a programmer.

As I've said, I'm happy to do the grunt work on the graphics to meet whatever is desired or needed. ck yer email plz, ok?

yes, IMO, a setting page is only the reference atm.

however you and I did have a thought about adding a 'hold' redline that could be turned on or off... but I don't know if that fell by the wayside or what.

That feature is part of the Klanghelm meters and IMO is valuable, but maybe no one else cares... ???

So yeah, please be easy with all this and I for one don't want to see your generosity become a pressure on you!
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Old 05-07-2014, 12:53 PM   #85
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Yep, I read it. Just haven't had a chance to respond yet Hopi (day job and everything...)

Also, my VU's have a hold needle too. Clicking the meter area will turn it on. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think it's either 3 seconds or 5 seconds before it resets.

If the reference level is the only extra control, maybe it should go inside the meter area too.
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Old 05-07-2014, 01:58 PM   #86
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oh! thanks on that hold needle! live and learn. That is a very kewl way to get to it, silly me just never clk'd on that second dot after the peak led.. [duh]

...and good idea on the ref location.

no rush on the emails, just not always sure they get to the person.

we'll talk when you have time
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:58 PM   #87
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@hopi and d.bop:
thanks again for taking the time, I 'm sure it will be great. Last image of meters over grey background is so nice.

About L and R labels, what about if the track is mono? I'd like the tracks were not forced to be or L or R and we allow them to not showing anything in that sense when they are mono. What do you think? (I use to have just mono tracks)

And for the settings page I agree itīd be just the ref so having into white bg would be perfect. Botton border thicker than the rest is ok for me because so it is the original design.

An idea: how do you see using the screw(at the botton in the middle of frame) in the original image as ref selecting knob? I mean you turn it to change ref which is shown in the white bg. That screw behaviour is the one waves REDD plugins implemented and I find a very elegant solution. They even added a phase meter like the original REDD meter bridge but I think a phase meter would be a real hard task... maybe for a future, I am more than happy to have Top contributors helping on this
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Old 05-07-2014, 04:48 PM   #88
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firstly, there are no momo tracks in reaper.

you can have a mono wav file on a track but the track itself is not mono... to see this try:

put a mono wav on a track, ...watch the tcp or mcp meter.
move the pan full left or full right and watch the meter...
set the pan to center and watch the meter... you see?

further ...put the SleepyTime stereo channel vst on that track watch the meters there...

OK now with that said, you'll notice for example with the SleepyTime stereo channel, you can shrink the FX window to show only the left meter... eh?

So with the 'meter bridge' as shown you 'could' do the same to show only the upper row of meters, the ones labeled L.

Now maybe that L and R should go somewhere else... say lower right corner and be made more subtle?

Next... if you really compare the image in your original post with my versions of that, you will see I did indeed fatten up the black at the bottom... [hahaha I know for sure cuz I did it]

Also when you say the 'screw' do you mean the big one in the middle in the black center below the needle? IF so that does not exist in your original images... but IS shown in one of my posts. The image there did not come from your images at all. While looking similar, I made that one from something else entirely.
However, that big screw could certainly be added to the image OK and be used however d.bop wanted to use it. It could be made into its own png stack to become a rotating knob.

back to the L R labels for a moment:

Perhaps they are not needed at all or perhaps they could go on the white face, say in the upper left top corner???

They really are only there for a user to know what they are seeing. IF one always knew the top meter is the Left and bottom is the Right... well, you see what I'm saying, eh?
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:14 PM   #89
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OK putting my money where my mouth went:

[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/835/0e9e.png[/IMG]

example of one unit... obviously multiples would become the meter bridge, eh?
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:20 PM   #90
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Yes, hopi, you are right, of course reaper tracks are really stereo because they offer you the way to use them in stereo, but you can choose to use them as mono too, that is what I did mean, sorry for confusion I created.

I really meant if you are working on mono(and you avoid the stereo behaviour of tracks) you can strech the window and hide the R row but you donīt like to see L there so it could be nice if you had the option to choose L or nothing, being nothing the mono case. This way we'd have meters for stereo (where as you said we do need a L or R to identify)and meters for mono where no label is needed and it'd be more elegant, how do you see it?

And about the screw itīs true, it was your image showing a screw not mine!
You added it and it is a real enhacement, yes. So using it as knob could be nice. And what about showing ref number on white area?
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:28 PM   #91
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OK again... just so you can think about options... LoL
One 'trick' I've used in the past is to make the LED for Clip simply a red lite on an existing part of the image. In this example it would be on the L and the R... shown here with the L indicating a Clip and the R not.

Personally, I like this one!

[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/843/rn7t.png[/IMG]
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:34 PM   #92
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Yes, I like that idea a lot.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:35 PM   #93
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Beautiful image!
So nice screw, it's great.

L and R are placed so elegant way.

I am thinking about a M for mono uses, do you see it ok?

A +10 for clipping trick, much better than circle clip, yes! Being it the L, the R or the M.

And about texts I think it could better to erase all existing words and adding text crediting you (hopi and d.bop) because (first)itīs true and you have worked it.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:37 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babiuk View Post
Yes, hopi, you are right, of course reaper tracks are really stereo because they offer you the way to use them in stereo, but you can choose to use them as mono too, that is what I did mean, sorry for confusion I created.

I really meant if you are working on mono(and you avoid the stereo behaviour of tracks) you can strech the window and hide the R row but you donīt like to see L there so it could be nice if you had the option to choose L or nothing, being nothing the mono case. This way we'd have meters for stereo (where as you said we do need a L or R to identify)and meters for mono where no label is needed and it'd be more elegant, how do you see it?

And about the screw itīs true, it was your image showing a screw not mine!
You added it and it is a real enhacement, yes. So using it as knob could be nice. And what about showing ref number on white area?
I might be wrong but I think the Ref number is a field that d.bop adds with code. If that is true, I see no reason to not have it on the white face... in fact, in the latest example it could go in the upper right corner as a balance to the L and R letters...

As to the mono or stereo meters showing... I'll have to leave that you and d.bop to decide... Since afaik, it would be a matter of more work for him.
I can easily supply the image parts and piece for both ways, say like the L and R used as CLIP Led's, and also a single face with no L or R and a round Led clip lite in that same location.
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:41 PM   #95
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geez we are almost talking in real time today... hahaha

ummm ... can't agree about the texts... to me they really make the vintage look! I don't need visible credit and I can't speak for d.bop but would be he'd feel the same. That kind of credit IMO should go on the dl page or in a note with the dll.

I hate today's world where the corp. logo and name is the first consideration on any product and you can barely get a plain damn T-Shirt... hahaha
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:42 PM   #96
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I replied but I hadnīt seen your post!
So I edited now.

I like L or R clipping way, and about mono:

Quote:
and also a single face with no L or R and a round Led clip lite in that same location.
Itīs a good option too but I see a clipping M better than no letter and a red light. But of course d.bop is the one who must decide about it, I donīt want to increase the work
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:47 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babiuk View Post
I replied but I hadnīt seen your post!
So I edited now.

I like L or R clipping way, and about mono:



Itīs a good option too but I see a clipping M better than no letter and a red light. But of course d.bop is the one who must decide about it, I donīt want to increase the work
right at this point you and d.bop decide and I'm happy to make and supply the images that you guys want.

see, we each have ideas about what 'vintage' looks like. hahaha here is one of my krazy nebula skins made of 'vintage' junk parts.
http://***************/a/img36/7244/t48r.png
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Old 05-07-2014, 05:48 PM   #98
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Yes, real time, hehe...

Ok for texts. I send you a PM
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:00 PM   #99
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just get into the total madness, ...found a better IMO starting image and have now worked it up, ...so not added LED's but did fix the screw... and have it now as PSD file, with all the parts:

face
frame
srew
needle

ready for d.bop and you ...if you decide to use it.
as you can see this one has the details of the springs and 'stuff' that look much more real.
The size is my current choice and the proportions a a little different, but I did not change them... they are what they say the meter actually looks like.
LoL... so good.. cuz IMHO vintage should really look like the actual item!

[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/835/jwjo.png[/IMG]
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:51 PM   #100
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Amazing work, hopi!
It's so cool, I just have seen it and I really like it, bravo!

About behaviour, we didn't talk about it still but I think we all agree it is a real VU showing RMS not peaks, aren't you? Of course it's a silly question but I was thinking about we did not mentioned on any post.(well, we talk about red clip and this leads to it but I felt at least I had to comment

And about ballistics, what do you think of it? My point of view is that it should be not fast attack neither release for showing real rms behaviour of the sound, but what do you think? Maybe controls for it would be useful but maybe it would complicate it?
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:37 PM   #101
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well all that stuff will be up to you and d.bop to consider I suppose...

me? I like a meter to show me what is going on fast and then to also have a 'hold' line... that shows where the peaks are.

I only learned today that d.bop has that in his meters and it's very nicely done to.

Glad you like the graphic... I do too. When you guys are ready you can tell me what you might additionally want in terms of Led's or whatever. No point in me trying to guess..
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:58 PM   #102
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Is this meter intended to read RMS to AES17 (+3dB)?

Will you be able to set 0VU to -14 and -20 dB FSD please?


>
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Old 05-08-2014, 02:44 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
well all that stuff will be up to you and d.bop to consider I suppose...

me? I like a meter to show me what is going on fast and then to also have a 'hold' line... that shows where the peaks are.
Anyway I believe hold line shows the "peak" when VU is set to meter peaks and "max RMS" when is set to meter RMS. Or maybe I am wrong? I tell you this because when you are metering RMS the needle doesn't listen to the peaks(at least it is what I think) so the hold line is just the max level RMS got at these moments. I always thought red clip was for advertising about peaks clipping, I mean clip set to listen to peaks but neddle is set to listen to RMS.
Am I right or wrong?

Anyway in case I am wrong I find useful looking at RMS behaviour and just being advertised about peaks by knowing just when they clip, because you can pay attention to rms level and compress with it in mind and eye and let the peaks task for limiter.

I use to care a lot about rms because I try to do always a right gain staging so i can feed the plugins with a level which is the optimus for them. So I find rms is so important info, it is something you learn to pay attention when you use nebula programs coming from real analog gear (which is so dependant from a right level to work at its best). It is just a matter or a choice of recreating the analog procedure and extract the best from the sampled stuff.

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Old 05-08-2014, 06:09 AM   #104
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Quote:
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Now so far, from other discussions lately, it also appears that to use it and get it to read the signal properly, it will have to live on another track as an aux and be sent the signal from whatever you want to read.... at least IF you want to see the output of that track meters show the same as the TCP or MCP meter.

Apparently no way around that bothersome fact at this time.
Well, there *is* a way around sending audio for all tracks to a single track: REAPER can also send out VU levels using OSC. I've just uploaded a script for OSCII-bot here the other day that displays VU levels from REAPER - using *completely* different graphics as suggested here, though.

If you guys wouldn't mind having a VU meter 'bridge' living in a window that does not belong to REAPER (and using the ballistics that REAPER uses), it is quite feasible to make it use bitmap graphics with moving needles instead (although EEL2 seems to restrict us to a maximum of 128 bitmap images; but I think these can be used as 'stacked' image strips, containing all images for an animation in a single image).

Also, this approach could very easily be adapted to just send all VU levels back to a specific JS plug-in as regular parameter values (in 32 bit fp resolution) or MIDI (e.g. using 14 bit CC# pairs). The entire bunch of VU level values would then arrive at the JS plug at a very small latency compared to direct internal audio routings (think a few ms; for visualization this seems small enough not to be an issue). But, perhaps most importantly, it would save your projects from getting messed up with additional audio routings for metering (thus also saving you from the chore of having to mess up your projects in order to work as intended).

Fwiw, I'd suggest looking into using something like Blender - the REAPER of 3D graphics! - for making pretty photo-realistic graphics. Without ray-tracing, it's much too hard to make realistic highlights and shadows (not even mentioning the effect of looking through a layer of glass!), *especially* on moving parts. The mockups above look quite pretty, and they'd probably do just fine if you'd only need static images. However, if you need an *animation* of a *3D* object, it's much harder not to make things look fake. And when you'd horizontally line up a bunch of elements using the exact same images - thus using the same highlights and shadows - things starts to become very unrealistic (read: fugly) really fast. In such a case, in my experience, the difference between the results of even the best 2D graphics applications and proper 3D rendered animations is like night and day (or, as we're on an audio forum: like a mono mix vs. a stereo mix). If you're doing this primarily for pretty looks, creating a 3D model of a meter with moving needle may well be worth the effort.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:45 AM   #105
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Banned... I'm not versed in 3D graphics.

If you or anyone here is, perhaps we could see an example of how this meter would look better?

Other thought... a lot of this discussion started with the idea to program the needle instead of using a png stack or even using a set of png files for the needles. I did some Neb skin with a very small version of a similar meter. In that you only have one way of doing it. You can't use a png stack, you have to use separate png files for each movement of the needle. I used 120 of them.
There are no considerations for ballistics in that... it's a very basic and very restricted way to go. And there is no consideration for anything like peak or RMS, etc. Each needle png can be set to a db value, and that is it, period amen.

On the other hand, 128 frames is more than enough for a needle in an arc like this to cover everything smoothly.

So then d.bop generously offers to do it in code, pointing out that it gives smoother movement compared to using stacks, etc.

So really I'm just giving the history here... I've just been lending a hand with the looks. The rest is beyond me.
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Old 05-08-2014, 08:31 AM   #106
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Well, I'm not much interested in meters myself (that VU meters script was mostly an excuse to experiment with EEL2 graphics functions); just throwing in some more ideas and options.

You could also draw 'needle' meters programatically in OSCII-bot. For example, the code for drawing meters in Liteon's "vumetergfx" could probably be ported to OSCII-bot very easily.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:56 PM   #107
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I wonder how anyone might like this way of showing when a CLIP happens?

[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/834/lh2k.png[/IMG]

it's the 'full face blush'... feeling a tad embarassed are we?
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Old 05-08-2014, 11:21 PM   #108
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hehe... too embarassed, hehe...

Nice image, I saw you changed cursive text, good change of course. ReaView, cool name, yes. It looks fine, and so the new screw I saw you added too.

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Old 05-08-2014, 11:27 PM   #109
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Quote:
Banned... I'm not versed in 3D graphics.

If you or anyone here is, perhaps we could see an example of how this meter would look better?
I would like to see some of this 3D work, be about this VU or about any other gear related plugin in order to be able of appreciatte the enhacement Banned is telling about.
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:30 AM   #110
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yes I would like to see the 3D work but really only in the case of this meter... I mean I've a lot of fine 3D work over the years...

I don't know how to do it however... and certainly not at the level I imagine for making this puppy's internals.

Oh think I'll change the text again Rea Vudu strikes as cute.
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:40 AM   #111
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Yeah, Great name vudu!
I even propose a setp beyond: Rea VUdu with capitals V and U, how do you see it?
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:47 AM   #112
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Yeah, Great name vudu!
I even propose a setp beyond: Rea VUdu with capitals V and U, how do you see it?
yeah now we are getting down to the important stuff!

I'll give it a try that way, but due to the font and the balance of the space the U in caps might not work great.. but we can easily try it a few diff ways....

so talk to me a bit more about the Clip red stuff...

what I've show is a trick I have used on a few of my own Neb skins... actually just did it that way on the last one as a special second version because of a request from an online friend who said the little LED's were too hard for him to see.

This meter, in reality does not have a CLIP Led, ..right?
I could work the redness down so that it looked like a red lite hidden at the top of meter was what came om to show clipping.

I'm not attached to any of this... just tossing out thoughts.
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:49 AM   #113
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oh and good eyes on the screw too... hahaha

that one is a png stack made in knobman
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:01 AM   #114
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I understand perfectly what you say about typos, I make art covers and I am so involved into letter spacing and that stuff, ok, it is better your first choice.

About clip My prrsonal taste is "less is more" way so I do prefer smaller red points. At least for the extreme reddish style I have in mind. How do you see it?
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:24 AM   #115
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I'm almost off to zzzzzz for the nite.... well there are a couple ways to go for showing the red of a clip... maybe tomorrow I'll do a diff version for you to consider...

It seemed the L or R that would also show Red were liked, but then I was trying to deal with you not wanting either of those for the 'mono' version.. right?

there is always that red LED in the black base but I was trying to get away from that...
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Old 05-09-2014, 04:12 AM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babiuk View Post
I would like to see some of this 3D work, be about this VU or about any other gear related plugin in order to be able of appreciatte the enhacement Banned is telling about.
Well, I'm quite sure most if not all of the 'photorealistic' GUI elements you can see on commercial plug-ins were created using some 3D graphics application. (For example, most of the plug-ins modelling analog gear by Universal Audio.)

I don't have anything super-pretty to share at the moment myself, but I'll be happy to send you a quick and dirty render of a rotary knob (as a .png strip and/or as a bunch of separate images) that I do have lying around (a mockup of the knobs on a Virus Polar keyboard). You could quickly throw that into an iPlug for testing, perhaps? That should at least show you some highlights and shadows that change corresponding to the knob shape.
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I don't know how to do it however... and certainly not at the level I imagine for making this puppy's internals.
I guess I should probably post an extensive tutorial on making pretty 3D GUI elements (for iPlugs etc.) using Blender, if I want to see less ugly Knobman GUIs anyway. Some day... when I have more time to spare.

Btw, my VU meter script for OSCII-bot also does a 'full face blush'.
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Old 05-09-2014, 09:07 AM   #117
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thanks for the offer Banned... however I have seen how lovely they are and I do understand that for knobs.

I wish I was learned in how to create those with a 3D program. All the lovely hi-lites and shadows, etc.

and happy to hear you also like the 'blush' method... it certainly lets the eyeball know when there is as clip, eh?

When it comes to clip [OVER] indicators in plugins, I wish the ones that use that, also had an indicator that persisted instead of or as well as, just being momentary.
Especially with something like Nebula, where you can easily get a very slight and brief Clip and not see it if you are not looking at that instant. Thankfully the reaper meters do have a persistent indicator. Still it would be good to have one also right in the plugin, IMO.

So as to 3D work for this meter in particular. d.bop can't really use a png stack for the needle, which is the only element that would cast a changing shadow. I think, but am not 100% that he can code in a shadow... I might be very mistaken about that.
So what would be created in 3D for this meter?
I also wonder about this:

I have all this artwork starting as 600 dpi images... where it's all very sharp and very clear. But of course that is never gonna be what gets directly used in the GUI. They have to be resized and the dpi gets reduced for the screen, eh?
Isn't that also true for whatever would be made in 3D? In otherwords, at some point of image smallness, we just run out of screen pixels.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:23 AM   #118
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OK... I [for one] am liking this:

changes are:
1-the CLIP LED is now on the "VU" that is part of the white face, you see it RED [ON] here in the top meter and OFF in the bottom meter.

2-the designation for Left and Right is now a very [IMO] subtle L and R on the bottom left of the black frame... barely visible but it is there.

3- the name of the logo text near the needle is now Vu Du
....hahaha 'by golly, Less IS More!'

4- the Screw is the one from a knobman png stack... and is intended to turn as a ref control.
...my thought is that the read out number for that ref, could go right on the white face, nice and small, in the same light gray as the other white face texts, and could be
nicely located just above the right side silver screw, just above the small text at the right of that screw.



[IMG]http://imagizer.**************/v2/xq90/835/6hq5.png[/IMG]
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:28 AM   #119
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GodUDuNiceWerk hopi.
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Old 05-09-2014, 10:29 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
When it comes to clip [OVER] indicators in plugins, I wish the ones that use that, also had an indicator that persisted instead of or as well as, just being momentary.
Especially with something like Nebula, where you can easily get a very slight and brief Clip and not see it if you are not looking at that instant. Thankfully the reaper meters do have a persistent indicator. Still it would be good to have one also right in the plugin, IMO.
Indeed. If it is as important as with Nebula, the plug-in itself should just have decent metering. (I find Nebula too much of a UX nightmare to use at all).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
So as to 3D work for this meter in particular. d.bop can't really use a png stack for the needle, which is the only element that would cast a changing shadow.
Actually, things are more subtle. The frames would also look slightly different depending on their position (since the lights and 'camera' don't change position, the light/view would hit them at slightly different angles).
Quote:
Originally Posted by hopi View Post
I think, but am not 100% that he can code in a shadow... I might be very mistaken about that.
So what would be created in 3D for this meter?
I also wonder about this:

I have all this artwork starting as 600 dpi images... where it's all very sharp and very clear. But of course that is never gonna be what gets directly used in the GUI. They have to be resized and the dpi gets reduced for the screen, eh?
Isn't that also true for whatever would be made in 3D? In otherwords, at some point of image smallness, we just run out of screen pixels.
Sure, but the limited amount of pixels on screen is not much of a problem. You can (and should!) do plenty of stuff at the sub-pixel level (much like you should use REAPER's 64-bit floating point mixing engine even if you only have 24 bit DAC on your audio output).
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