Old 04-21-2013, 10:31 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
I think that's fair based on your experience and I can understand what you are saying. If it helps I can only add that during the 5 years or so that I have been here, ngarjuna has never let me down in a technical fashion and he is one of the few who's statements I tend to trust even when I don't completely agree. He has always been matter of fact and isn't afraid to present both sides; he does seem to be a stickler for evidence which I can't argue with in this particular line of work.

I also remember seeing expertise in posts of yours in the past that I also felt like I could trust so I don't think there is too much of a problem here. Hopefully its just great minds (myself not included) bouncing around our views.
That's probably more complementary than I deserve; like most people, I'm sure my opinions vary from useful to deeply personal depending on the matter in question. Along those lines, I'd like to clarify something that has probably gotten lost in the minutiae of the discussion:

I don't think my opinion of what VRM can or cannot do is superior to imsigh's. Really, I don't. There are many tools in audio that some people love and others think are crap (read a thread on GS about the Avalon 737 if you want a really easy [and sometimes funny] example). My opinion on VRM is just another one. And I'll stop addressing the matter once and for all as soon as the matter of "objective provability" is settled. I don't deny that some people have good experiences with VRM, I've even said as much in previous posts. It most definitely wasn't for me and, thus, for other engineers who tend to feel like I do about stuff, it may not be for them (then again, maybe it will, it's best not to be dogmatic about stuff you haven't had a chance to try out yourself).
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:33 AM   #122
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Since we are on the finer points of emulation... You, I and Richie should turn him on to Nebula. I'm sure he would enjoy it. I'm being serious btw.
An example of what I am talking about. That is an absolute statement. It objectively and factually wrong because it is absolute. There is no subjective room to move. (Pun intended)
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:41 AM   #123
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Since we are on the finer points of emulation... You, I and Richie should turn him on to Nebula. I'm sure he would enjoy it. I'm being serious btw.
I actually already mentioned Nebula in this thread.... maybe a bit sarcastically I admit....oops. (slaps self "bad promo Richie...BAD promo"). I think that while imispgh (great forum name, by the wat!) may love the crazy-for-detail aspect of Nebula, we may find ourselves back in a similar thread regarding scientific proof and such....(imispgh, that is "gentle sparring", not meant to be malicious).
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:47 AM   #124
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I actually already mentioned Nebula in this thread.... maybe a bit sarcastically I admit....oops. (slaps self "bad promo Richie...BAD promo"). I think that while imispgh (great forum name, by the wat!) may love the crazy-for-detail aspect of Nebula, we may find ourselves back in a similar thread regarding scientific proof and such....(imispgh, that is "gentle sparring", not meant to be malicious).
I have actually never used Nebula. I use the Reaper capability and Reverberate and find them to be helpful.

Thanks for the kudos on the name. I am actually back in PGH but can't change it because of an old issue that requires people to find me on occasion. My wife did change hers to iminpgh though.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:50 AM   #125
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Going to go jam on NINJAM now. Don't know if you guys play anything but NINJAM is a blast. I play every week. (Drums)

And at the risk of belaboring the point. I would imagine that it isn't much more difficult to model speakers on a headphone than to sample 6 people and play them beck to each other one measure off and make it sound real and live. Amazing capability.
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Old 04-21-2013, 10:50 AM   #126
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ngarjuna you said the items quoted below. See this is why I think my frustration and comments are warranted. You just said you "don't recall anyone saying anything "can't be done at all". That is a 100% definitive objective statement that is 100% definitely and objectively false given you own quotes. Words matter and they especially matter when someone tries to point out there is a problem. Instead of heading that you just keep plowing forward doing the same thing
Let's look at these statements, then, since you're not going to let go:

Quote:
"Yes, rooms have problems; of course rooms also have benefits, that is also an objective fact; and it's thus far unproven (or at the very least disputed) that VRM brings any of those benefits to headphones."
Where is the proof? You've posted yet again without showing ANY. Please, do us all a big favor; in your next post, actually PROVE SOMETHING. Or stop saying that you have. But nothing in the statement above seems controversial at all; rooms do have problems; rooms do have benefits (even really bad rooms where the problems might outweigh the benefits). And you have yet to bring anything other than your opinion (in other words, no proof) that VRM brings those benefits to headphones or outweighs the negatives.

Quote:
"Because having a VRM is in no way like having access to "the ACTUAL monitors" you keep listing. There is virtually no similarity in the listening experience. This claim that you keep making is very misleading at best (and utterly false at worst)."
Quote:
"Yes, I'm clearly saying no model is "perfect", but I've gone farther than that: I've stated that no model is even useful in this task today. And unlike many of the more sophisticated offerings of this sort, VRM has no flexible HRTF control (although to me this is a moot point as even those which do don't come close enough to be very useful either)."
This is my opinion based on many years of working in many rooms compared to VRM. If you had simply given your opinion (which differs from mine), it would have ended there (I probably wouldn't have even bothered to add my 2c about VRM at all as there is no resolution to a purely subjective disagreement). The claim you keep making, which is still NOT PROVEN, is that you have objective proof. So? Where is it?

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All of this are objective statements stating an ultimate conclusion. You say things like "no way", "virtually no similarity" and "no model is even useful". Those comments do not allow for any subjectivity or room to move at all. They are meant to be 100% definitive objective truths.
This is surely the problem here. None, and I do mean NONE, of the statements above are "100% definitive objective truths". Not only have I never made such a specious, ridiculous claim, I actually have been very clear throughout the discussion that they are exactly the opposite: my 100% purely subjective statements based on my experiences, nothing more. That you keep trying to puff my position up into dogma is a misunderstanding on your part, though after all that's been said I'm sort of at a loss for how you could possibly think this is a reasonable position. There's plenty of room to "move" and comletely disagree, which you have, which I've repeatedly said is fine, good even; this whole discussion continues to hinge on your claim of objective provability when you've brought nothing resembling proof or objectivity.

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As for convolution reverbs I understand they are not flawless. But to say they "do not sound like real rooms" is wrong. Again you allow for no room to move or subjectivity. Of course they sound like real rooms to some degree. And to a very useful degree in many cases. That is the esscence of my opinion of the VRM. It is not an absolute and perfect model but is objectively close enough to be a net positive in many cases.
Well you can keep saying this but, trust me, most reverbs that are used in professional production sound very little like a real room. Granted, you'd probably have to solo them to discover that; and that's precisely the point: as engineers we use LOTS of tools and tricks to make things which don't sound real at all sound very real. Reverb is probably chief amongst these; have you ever heard an EMT-140, for example? Incredibly popular reverb going back a very long time, still in use all over the place today. And by itself an EMT sounds NOTHING like real room reverberation. It's still a very useful engineering tool for making things in a mix sound like they are reverberating.

Rooms are similar. You probably wouldn't want to close mic an orchestra and apply a whole bunch of fake Hall verb because it won't sound like an orchestra recorded in a hall. Do you think bigger commercial studios have rooms for orchestral recordings for the sake of elitism? Because they're unaware of what convolution is on the market? Because they're just stuck in their dogmas? If you think that...you should probably talk to some engineers who actually record orchestral sections because they will surely set you straight.

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As for objective proof I do not have access to the code or algorithms. But I did link to leveraged existing technology they explains what is going on. And I will offer this. Your saying that that the VRM "is no way like having access to ACTUAL monitors" is exactly like me saying that the digital version of an analog tape recording is in no way like the original tape and then asking you to prove to me it is.
No way. What you linked was Focusrite's marketing claims "which explains what's going on". Well, that's nice; I've seen manufacturers of $10,000 cables make extravagant claims in their marketing brochures complete with faux pseudo-scientific buzzwords about what their product is doing. And the thing they all have in common? They aren't actually doing what their marketing speak says they're doing. And without objective, measurable proof, they are dismissed out of hand by engineers who know better.

But you basically just conceded this entire argument in one sentence: YOU DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO ANY OF THE PROOF YOU CLAIM. That's fine, I said it about 20 posts ago, you can just drop this whole "proof" nonsense because there is none; Focusrite isn't going to share their proprietary data with you and you do not have the measurement equipment nor the background to make your own in such a way that would result in "proof". There is no proof. Not of your opinion and not of mine. You have now acknowledged this explicitly.

Quote:
You created all of this and back yourself in to a corner when you make the statements you do THE WAY YOU DO. You really should think about that. I bet if you calmed down and typed what you actually think we would agree more than not.
There is so much cognitive dissonance in this statement that I no longer feel this discussion is worthwhile. I feel like you're having a different conversation that you keep referring to; but that other conversation simply doesn't exist. I'm sorry that you are so attached to your beliefs (really?? your beliefs about VRM are so important to you that you can't see how wildly fast and loose you've been playing with supposedly "factual statements"?) but that's all that they are. In fact at this point I'll stop asking you to bring any kind of proof since you
-have had ample opportunity
-have demonstrated more than once in this thread that you don't seem to understand what "objective proof" means int he context of this discussion
-have now stated explicitly that any proof that you would want to bring to this matter you don't even have access to

Good day.
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:11 AM   #127
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I have actually never used Nebula. I use the Reaper capability and Reverberate and find them to be helpful.

Thanks for the kudos on the name. I am actually back in PGH but can't change it because of an old issue that requires people to find me on occasion. My wife did change hers to iminpgh though.
lol. Nebula is much much more than reverb. It is all about sampled static emulations of tons of analog gear. As a former all analog audio guy, nebula brings me home.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:01 PM   #128
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Let's look at these statements, then, since you're not going to let go:

This is surely the problem here. None, and I do mean NONE, of the statements above are "100% definitive objective truths". Not only have I never made such a specious, ridiculous claim, I actually have been very clear throughout the discussion that they are exactly the opposite: my 100% purely subjective statements based on my experiences, nothing more. That you keep trying to puff my position up into dogma is a misunderstanding on your part, though after all that's been said I'm sort of at a loss for how you could possibly think this is a reasonable position. There's plenty of room to "move" and completely disagree, which you have, which I've repeatedly said is fine, good even; this whole discussion continues to hinge on your claim of objective provability when you've brought nothing resembling proof or objectivity.
Good day.
"Because having a VRM is in no way like having access to "the ACTUAL monitors" you keep listing. There is virtually no similarity in the listening experience. This claim that you keep making is very misleading at best (and utterly false at worst)."

"Yes, I'm clearly saying no model is "perfect", but I've gone farther than that: I've stated that no model is even useful in this task today. And unlike many of the more sophisticated offerings of this sort, VRM has no flexible HRTF control (although to me this is a moot point as even those which do don't come close enough to be very useful either)."

Saying VRM is in "NO WAY like having access to the ACTUAL monitors" and "no model is useful for this today" is just factually incorrect. You don't say things in this matter and expect them to be taken subjectively. They are stated and written as objective fact which you base on your experience. Those who read that in context think some audio engineer with 20 years experience thinks the VRM has literally no value and doesn't work AT ALL. Worded like that raises the bar that high. You don't get to state an "opinion" like that and then not get to be held accountable for it at the opinion or subjective level. Doing so is irresponsible, unprofessional and unethical. And it is actually harmful to Focusrite for you to do that. If it was worded so it appeared or looked like an opinion fine. But it is not.

An as far a convolution reverbs you said they "DO NOT sound like real rooms". You didn't say they don't sound enough like real rooms or that some sound like real rooms but not exactly or close enough to the target room etc. How do you know they ALL sound nothing like the original room or like some room close to what is being represented? Have you actually been in a all the rooms where the files were created, heard an instrument played, then listened back to it on a well set up system? (Curious do you find Reverberate OK?) And even if a mid hall really sounded like a small hall etc wouldn't they have value if what they were actually doing was understood and used properly? When you go as far as you do you invalidate what you say and your experience by being ridiculously extreme.

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Old 04-21-2013, 02:27 PM   #129
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You don't say things in this matter and expect them to be taken subjectively. They are stated and written as objective fact which you base on your experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by imispgh View Post
You don't get to state an "opinion" like that and then get to be held accountable for it at the opinion or subjective level. Doing so is irresponsible, unprofessional and unethical.

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Originally Posted by imispgh View Post
When you go as far as you do you invalidate what you say and your experience by being ridiculously extreme.
Thanks for providing such great quotes. We should all be in agreement now because this is what some of us have been hoping that you will understand about your statements regarding "fact" and "proof". lol. I was almost ready to unsubscribe from this thread due to the silliness of it's more recent intensity. But this is getting good......
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:53 PM   #130
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As someone who mixes on headphones for lots of reasons, I got a lot out of this thread. It would seem that the current conversation has run it's course. Imispgh seemed to have a goal of protecting passersby from being told that VRM doesn't work at all. Mission accomplished. I do believe it might help some people. Others also shared their opinion of being skeptical of the usefulness (some of whom had first hand knowledge of the unit as well), presumably so that potential consumers could make an informed decision. Being just such a potential consumer, I truly appreciate both perspectives.

I wonder if we can just move along before this very useful thread degenerates to lounge fodder. Of course that's not in my control, but I just wanted to share my opinion as a benefactor of the knowledge shared so far.
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Old 04-21-2013, 02:59 PM   #131
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An example of what I am talking about. That is an absolute statement. It objectively and factually wrong because it is absolute. There is no subjective room to move. (Pun intended)
I'm probably missing the pun but Nebula is a VST that attempts to overcome the static misgivings of convolution (that's why I quoted convolution) and we three all happen to enjoy using it, thusly I was suggesting we share it with you because it is somewhat scientifically deep and I assumed that might be of interest to you. It had only to do with sharing something that is in some ways related to this subject that you might get value out of but maybe not.

I thought it was kind of funny that we three just happened to be three of the heavy nebula users in this forum speaking on the subject of emulation LOL.

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Old 04-21-2013, 03:04 PM   #132
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I wonder if we can just move along before this very useful thread degenerates to lounge fodder. Of course that's not in my control, but I just wanted to share my opinion as a benefactor of the knowledge shared so far.
"Bricka-bracka-fricka-fracka" (You would need to be at least in your 40's or watch "vintage" cartoons to know that one....)

Great advice, though. Thanks for reelin' us in.
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Old 04-21-2013, 04:15 PM   #133
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"Bricka-bracka-fricka-fracka" (You would need to be at least in your 40's or watch "vintage" cartoons to know that one....)

Great advice, though. Thanks for reelin' us in.
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Old 04-21-2013, 04:18 PM   #134
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As someone who mixes on headphones for lots of reasons, I got a lot out of this thread. It would seem that the current conversation has run it's course. Imispgh seemed to have a goal of protecting passersby from being told that VRM doesn't work at all. Mission accomplished. I do believe it might help some people. Others also shared their opinion of being skeptical of the usefulness (some of whom had first hand knowledge of the unit as well), presumably so that potential consumers could make an informed decision. Being just such a potential consumer, I truly appreciate both perspectives.

I wonder if we can just move along before this very useful thread degenerates to lounge fodder. Of course that's not in my control, but I just wanted to share my opinion as a benefactor of the knowledge shared so far.
Yes part of my goal was to avoid people thinking it was useless or didn't work at all. Not even remotely true.

The larger point though was about true experience and how it is responsibly exercised.
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Old 04-21-2013, 04:20 PM   #135
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Thanks for providing such great quotes. We should all be in agreement now because this is what some of us have been hoping that you will understand about your statements regarding "fact" and "proof". lol. I was almost ready to unsubscribe from this thread due to the silliness of it's more recent intensity. But this is getting good......
I stand by what I said. Or more accurately sit by them.
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Old 04-22-2013, 01:57 PM   #136
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I often hear people say that it's a bad idea to mix or especially master on headphones.

but i'm wondering exactly why. I mean, isn't it possible that a great pair of headphones is actually awesome for mixing?

I find that there are only 2 real situations that people will sit in relatively the right spot, to get a correct stereo image.

in the car, and with headphones.

other than that, people will be in a club, or will be listening in their house, where they're not really facing their speakers for any length of time at all.
Well, I'm new to this, and I did not own a pair of monitors, and I thought the same thing. I got a pair of monitors simply because I got tired of constantly wearing cans. And the first time I fired the monitors up, I realized just how much my mixes SUCKED. What was really eye opening was AB'ing my own mixes with recordings that I have always admired. Headphones just don't show it the way even a used pair of Yamaha HS50m's will.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:37 PM   #137
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Well, I'm new to this, and I did not own a pair of monitors, and I thought the same thing. I got a pair of monitors simply because I got tired of constantly wearing cans. And the first time I fired the monitors up, I realized just how much my mixes SUCKED. What was really eye opening was AB'ing my own mixes with recordings that I have always admired. Headphones just don't show it the way even a used pair of Yamaha HS50m's will.
The VRM box can provide a compromise solution.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:58 PM   #138
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The VRM box can provide a compromise solution.
Is this starting again?? To kmaaj: scroll up (many pages probably, lol) and read about the ongoing debate regarding the fact vs fiction. Lol imispgh. This person has decent monitors and is expressing a distaste for headphones. Please don't cram this down readers virtual throats again. VRM is an adequate option for some people, and a terrible option for others. There is no hard-data that proves that it is a scientifically valid option for everyone that needs to mix in headphones. It is emulation software, not magic. Ok, your turn.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:50 AM   #139
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Happy we can't just buy a pair of ears.... at least not yet....
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Old 04-24-2013, 06:51 AM   #140
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Is this starting again?? To kmaaj: scroll up (many pages probably, lol) and read about the ongoing debate regarding the fact vs fiction. Lol imispgh. This person has decent monitors and is expressing a distaste for headphones. Please don't cram this down readers virtual throats again. VRM is an adequate option for some people, and a terrible option for others. There is no hard-data that proves that it is a scientifically valid option for everyone that needs to mix in headphones. It is emulation software, not magic. Ok, your turn.
You are overreacting

They did not voice the reason for not liking headphones. If it is wearing them - fine. If it is the sound field they produce then the VRM would help.

No cramming. Just a suggestion.

One that I will continue to make.
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:31 AM   #141
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You are overreacting
Ha ha. No, you.
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Old 03-24-2016, 09:47 AM   #142
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Default Mix On Headphones

Presets for Nebula3 plug-in for mixing on headphones.
http://mixonheadphones.com/
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Old 03-27-2016, 10:38 PM   #143
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NOTICE:

(Applies to true believers, marketing managers, music store salesmen,developers of software,golden ears, tin ears, hip-hop guys. metalheads,jazz players, orchestra conductors,and the truly clueless, as well as regular folk like you and I...

1. If you think it helps you, use it.
2. If someone asks on a forum for opinions, they will always vary wildly.
3. Any thing you put in your signal chain to alter your signal, will alter you signal (see what I did there?).
4. As time passes, you will figure out for yourself whether things work or not, and if your buying decisions were correct. Somebody who was here 6 months ago praising the XYZ1000 will be here running it down tomorrow.(The grass is always greener)
5.Pick 2 identical files, somebody will hear a difference between the two.
6.Someone always has more experience,better credentials,whatever, than you do.(or I do)
6a.Lacking such credential, make'em up, this IS the internets, ya know...
7. Your monitoring will never be as good as it could be...nope,never.

Now, my completely un-credentialed, insufficiently experienced, ignorant, useless opinion:

Use the best speaker(in your opinion) you got, in the best room (in your opinion) you have access to. Your ear/brain signal chain IS a completely subjective measure. It is also very good at adapting to anomalies in rooms and compensating for such. Given that, adding something into a signal chain to make up for low quality monitoring, only adds unknown errors to the existing errors. Keep it in simplest form possible.

Lastly, in the immortal words of Mixerman,(or was it Slipperman?) "Work on K-Mart gear if it makes your d**k hard".
Hard to add to that...

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Old 03-28-2016, 09:33 AM   #144
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I recently created an FX chain using free plugins specifically for overcoming many of the problems associated with mixing and monitoring with headphones. All the details are here:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=172605
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:16 PM   #145
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I don't have a room suitable for a monitor, so I bought PreSonus Eris E5, hoping it can fine tuing to match my room but I realized I was wrong.

It's not a perfect monitor because it's low-end is poor. Listening to heart beat like hitting a water bucket.

I have JVC FX-850 as my IEM, hoping it can be used as a mixing equiment.
But I send my mixing to my friends, they say reverb is too much.

I can't figure out why a good IEM could not be used as a mixing tool.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:16 PM   #146
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You have to calibrate it to suit your head/ears. It doesn't take very long and once you know what settings work for you, you can make presets with different speaker/room properties.
How do you calibrate headphones?
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Old 08-13-2016, 09:53 AM   #147
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How do you calibrate headphones?
You don't. You calibrate the plugin.
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Old 08-13-2016, 11:06 AM   #148
dnbguy84
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Mix on headphones in addition to other monitors if you want your mix to sound OK everywhere. Swap around as you go.
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Old 09-23-2016, 12:18 PM   #149
patriciocs
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Why don't use Sonarworks Headphone Calibration and a room virtualization plugin as Readave's chain (which I used a lot) or Waves NX?

Those should address the issues of mixing with headphones, To me usung Sonarworks with Waves NX makes a huge difference when mixing with my calibrated AKG240 cans. Without those plugins I wouldn't even try to mix with headphones, but with them it is a great tool.

Anyway I keep checking the mix with my Yamaha HS80M montiors in my almos no acoustically treated bedroom/studio.

Just my 2c. But if you cannot afford a good monitors in a good acoustically treated room, a headphones/calibration plugin/room simulation plugin it is a terrific solution.
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Old 09-23-2016, 12:50 PM   #150
jerome_oneil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Headphones are even further away from not sitting in the sweet spot. Both ears are completely isolated from what the other ear hears.
That. The stereo field is completely destroyed in cans.
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