Old 01-31-2013, 02:10 AM   #41
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Dan - I am embarrassed to say I have no idea where to look in the bios to disable the scaling, etc., so a little help would be appreciated.

Gentle reminder - you never replied to this one, or Imissed it.

Thanks in anticipation, Ivan
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:36 AM   #42
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Dan , with my brotherīs help I could disable CPU EIST (Enhanced Intel Speed step Technology is it named in the manual for my motherboard ).
And CPU Enhanced halt (C1E) ( CPU C1E Auto in my motherboard )in the Bios .
After 30 min I have no clicks ( and it seems OK in Latency Mon so far ).
But it is still Nvidia windows kernel mode driver and Kernel mode driver for framework runtime ,microsoft corp.which has the highest us value . 712 us and 606 .
I will see tomorrow how it works .
Thanks a lot .
Caj.
Yipee !!! today I have made music in REAPER for 2 hours , with my ethernet cable disabled and also my antivirus disabled . It sounds better (no clicks)
and Latency Mon says that my system is OK for audio .
When I finished with REAPER I activated my antivirus and inserted the ethernet cable (ADSL) and immediately Latency Mon said that my system had trouble .
Great thanks dan !I will with my brotherīs help continue with your advices .
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:01 AM   #43
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Gentle reminder - you never replied to this one, or Imissed it.

Thanks in anticipation, Ivan
In my BIOS it was: 1: in "BIOS utility-advanced mode -CPU configuration - EIST (Enhanced intel speedstep technology ). I disabled EIST.
2:"BIOS utility - advanced mode (or Features) -CPU configuration - CPU C1E (or CPU Enhanced Halt C1E). I disabled C1E .
Here you can see a picture :http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=116534
# 24 by Canada Jimmy .
Hope it helps .
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Old 01-31-2013, 11:55 AM   #44
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Thanks, Caj - I had no idea there were that many threads that related back to system optimisation.

And what would we all do without Dan's input?
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Old 01-31-2013, 03:58 PM   #45
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Take my advice with a grain of salt, remember I have not see every machine out there, however if Bill gates bank tranfers go to my $300 account then all of you would get some nice high end HPZ workstations lol


But it is important to stick with the normal setups and tweeks, then have the users test and retest systems until we get things working.

And above all listen to everyone even if it's a dumb question it must be answered it could end up saving us tons of time.


Sometimes even I overlook the basics, I try hard not too but sometimes it's always the most idiotic basic things that we overlook.

Simplicity is what we should be going after.


Thanks for the comments . And keep these threads going as we need more posts on hardware setups as these posts are not seen in any other forums or even answered in other forums.

Good job everyone.
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:29 AM   #46
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Thanks, Caj - I had no idea there were that many threads that related back to system optimisation.

And what would we all do without Dan's input?
Yes, Dan is fantstic with these (for me ) difficult things .
Iīm glad it worked for you .
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Old 02-01-2013, 06:44 AM   #47
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Take my advice with a grain of salt, remember I have not see every machine out there, however if Bill gates bank tranfers go to my $300 account then all of you would get some nice high end HPZ workstations lol


But it is important to stick with the normal setups and tweeks, then have the users test and retest systems until we get things working.

And above all listen to everyone even if it's a dumb question it must be answered it could end up saving us tons of time.


Sometimes even I overlook the basics, I try hard not too but sometimes it's always the most idiotic basic things that we overlook.

Simplicity is what we should be going after.


Thanks for the comments . And keep these threads going as we need more posts on hardware setups as these posts are not seen in any other forums or even answered in other forums.

Good job everyone.
Thanks Dan , though I not have done all the advices you gave me yet , my PC have never been better than today .( the funny thing is that my friends wich can lot more about PC:s than I ,they didnīt believed me when I told them about your advices , especially that I have to disable wifi .
But how do I make a custom batch ?
Every time I work with audio I now turn off antivirus and take away my ethetnet cable . Is that what you mean with custom batch ?
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:58 AM   #48
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There is a way to make a custom batch to disable actual hardware but you have to grab the microsoft devcon tool ( small app)

It is not complicated but I have to test weather disabling the device vs the services that device uses is worth disabling the device in the first place.

If the devices services are disabled then the device has no way to be used
Think of the services as a transmission, without it the car just sits there idling.

The problem is the services are still running so it is wiser to always target the services with batches.



One thing you must do with your wifi is to set it to use static IP, as this way 3 services can be disable , Network List Service, Network Location Awereness and DHCP

Notice how I listed them in order of shutdown order....

Using Static IP for wifi and Lan connections is wiser as it eliminates 3 services right from the start.

I have never used DHCP IP's on my home network, every wifi connecton is Static IP or Land connection as well.


But the batch to stop those 3 services + wifi is as follows


@echo off
Rem "Network List Service" 3
net stop netprofm
Rem "Network Location Awareness" 2
net stop NlaSvc
Rem "DHCP" 1
net stop Dhcp
Rem "wlan auto config service"
net stop WlanSvc
cd c:\Program Files\REAPER (x64)
reaper.exe
net start Dhcp
net start NlaSvc
net start netprofm
net start WlanSvc


Okay so not very complicated, as all this is just a 3 service stop list( plus the main Wlan service), then turn on. It has to made in that order as DHCP is the master of those 3, so the weakest link has to be stopped first as noted by the numbers

This works quite well, it stops the services then runs reaper then after reaper exits it turns the services back on all automatically then the last service to start is the main Wlan service.

Windows 7 and Windows 8.

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Old 02-02-2013, 03:44 PM   #49
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There is a way to make a custom batch to disable actual hardware but you have to grab the microsoft devcon tool ( small app)

It is not complicated but I have to test weather disabling the device vs the services that device uses is worth disabling the device in the first place.

If the devices services are disabled then the device has no way to be used
Think of the services as a transmission, without it the car just sits there idling.

The problem is the services are still running so it is wiser to always target the services with batches.



One thing you must do with your wifi is to set it to use static IP, as this way 3 services can be disable , Network List Service, Network Location Awereness and DHCP

Notice how I listed them in order of shutdown order....

Using Static IP for wifi and Lan connections is wiser as it eliminates 3 services right from the start.

I have never used DHCP IP's on my home network, every wifi connecton is Static IP or Land connection as well.


But the batch to stop those 3 services + wifi is as follows


@echo off
Rem "Network List Service" 3
net stop netprofm
Rem "Network Location Awareness" 2
net stop NlaSvc
Rem "DHCP" 1
net stop Dhcp
Rem "wlan auto config service"
net stop WlanSvc
cd c:\Program Files\REAPER (x64)
reaper.exe
net start Dhcp
net start NlaSvc
net start netprofm
net start WlanSvc


Okay so not very complicated, as all this is just a 3 service stop list( plus the main Wlan service), then turn on. It has to made in that order as DHCP is the master of those 3, so the weakest link has to be stopped first as noted by the numbers

This works quite well, it stops the services then runs reaper then after reaper exits it turns the services back on all automatically then the last service to start is the main Wlan service.

Windows 7 and Windows 8.
Thanks , does this batch work for me ? , I have ethenet thru the thelephone cable (ADSL).
Now when I first unplugging the ethernet cable and then turn off my antivirus , the DPC Latency checker is between 100 and 200 us .
And Latency Mon says that my PC is Ok for audio .
And I have no clicks at all !!!
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:42 AM   #50
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Well this is going to be a train ride lol.

My recommendation is always as follow

1.Start with the BIOS, any cpu stepping features MUST BE DISABLED, Intel is notorious for this

2.Next up is the system settings, make sure any visuals are off, system is set to background services priority

3.Swap file ( this is an never ending discussion) OFF!!! although others will say LEAVE IT ON.

4.System services - NO BRAINER All non needed services off.

5.Prepare to make a custom batch so that when Reaper runs, DHCP, WIFI and other services are disabled

Disable any hardware that you do not use from Device Manager( set it to disable don't uninstall it)

Disable system sounds

WIFI on windows 7 is notorious for Audio issues.



I have the Windows 7 Super service batch and the Windows 8 Super service batch on the forums, look for my name on there.


Start with inside the PC, open up the cover, anything blocking the fans, wiring all neatly arranged.. Hardrives plugged in the right order?

Primary harddrive alone as Master, any slaves hooked up to it?, can you seperate those slaves...
Thanks Dan ,now is my PC running very good for audio , the only thing I havenīt done is the custom batch : http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...omputer&page=2 (Post# 48)
I must have my brother here if something goes wrong .
A question : how shall I do whith windows update ? I have set it : Do not
search after updates . But my antivirus (Eset smart security 5) popped up whith a message that I should update the OS .
So I searched after updates thru windows update , and it came up whith 9 inportant updates . Shall I make these updates ? or is it only a few of them I shall update ?
If so , wich of them shall I choose ? (itīs security updates and updates for net framework).
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:31 AM   #51
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DO NOT USE WINDOWS UPDATE PERIOD ON ANY Live Production DAW

The Windows updates are done first on a secondary similar hardware machine then tested and then the Daw is updated

No good admin would do this on running desktop workstation clients, a few are done first before all others go through the updates.

DO NOT FIX WHAT IS NOT BROKEN.


I have never used Windows Update, not lying here NEVER at home on my desktops or laptops

Always install Service Packs instead


I also do not run antivirus ever since Windows 98.

The only important thing to remember : KISS "Keep it simple stupit"

I am not sure if you are aware but I run Linux ( puppy linux slacko) for my daily computer use. I only use Windows for Daw and Video works.

I have always dualbooted Windows with Linux. These days I am so used to Puppy Linux that I won't use anything else LOL.

A big tip for Windows users, is to always have file extensions ON, as they are always off by default.

Example of sneak Brontok spyware and why people keep reinfecting themselves

data ( looks like a folder)

People click on it too late !!! lol


let's look at it with file extensions on

data.exe ( now you know it's not a folder, right click and delete this crap)


brontok is one of worse spyware out there, because it relies on the fact the file extensions are always off, so people keep reinfecting themselves over and over. And as soon as you put a memory card or flash drive into that system it will copy brontok to the SD card or jump drive, so basically infecting others as well!!

This all due to people keeping file extensions off.

Yes with file extensions On you have to be more careful when rename files as the extension will also be editable.

At my computer store that I have, I have told the 2 par time guys anytime they see any hints of Brontok, they are to call the customer and ask them to bring in any SD cards or jump drives, because if we clean their system as soon as they get it home REINFECTION lol.

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Old 02-13-2013, 11:18 AM   #52
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Without a doubt, one of the most informative threads I've read. Been looking at the new xeon processor(s) systems and I know one company is adding a program to theirs to do all this automatically. I think I would like to try all this on an older laptop which still runs XP pro SP3. Is that possible or is this strictly for the Win 7/8 OS?
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:15 PM   #53
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Hi there and thanks for the comment

Windows XP is one of the most easiest OS's to tweek due to most of the services it runs are all seperate services, it means they run independently of any other which causes less problems.

Windows 7 changed the services a little and some services are tied to to others so you have to shut them down in proper specific orders


Windows 8 is even worse with this some services aka the Network services are almost all tied together LOL a bit trickier to shut one off when another depends on it. However Windows 8 is more forgiving with drastic system changes.


Basically you can get down to I believe around 12 services running in the system services configuration with XP

Xp is a great OS for embeded Devices

Example if you wanted to make a mini PC to hook up to the tv to play old console or PC games you can use XP and kill all the services, make dos batch menu to run instead of the explorer shell this way all you see is a menu with all the games you want to run

I did this for my niece, and the mini computer runs on XP, 2 gigs of ram and uses a CF card as a hardrive with a CF to EIDE adapter.

Perfect for kids as they do not have access to the OS LOL.

You can turn that batch menu into an exe and then run that exe in the place of explorer.exe ( since you always have access to CTRL+ALT+DEL for task manager.

The only problem with these posts is they can become long, but however you do not see posts for hardware issues, repair instructions, building your daw pc, hacking drivers, modding drivers on any other Daw forums.
Which is a shame in my opinion.

Look at the cubase forums, first answer to any question is this on every single post :

Q. I am having a problem with xx version anyone can help?

A. You sure you are not running a pirated version?


Sickening after people spend their hard earned money.

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Old 02-13-2013, 03:09 PM   #54
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I've been following these threads about optimizing PC for DAW-work.Been reading up on windows services also. Very interesting indeed!
So far I managed to trim down the number of services to 14 and my old AMD Athlon x2, win xp pro sp3, is running smoother than ever. Reaper runs really fast. I want to thank all who have contributed with their knowledge. And a special thanks to you Dan, for sharing your know-how!

Also, here's a screendump on my net-start.
Is there anything else I can stop or tweak?
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Old 02-13-2013, 04:22 PM   #55
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Muhahahah nice list

Leave those on there alone.


That is pretty good as far as tweeking, killed all the junk out.


We do not need tons of extra services, we need a smooth trimmed down Windows for audio or video work.

I treat windows like linux, any misc service the app I am running or will be running does not need all the time ( Reaper) those services are eliminated.


It is important for Windows to be running free from the junk services and do what it is suppose to be doing: "COMPUTE" using the hardware we give it.

I know people will say but it won't look pretty?

I say tell that to a customer who is paying for services and want's to know what is money is going into LOL


Keep this thread going and Thanks for the comments.
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:12 AM   #56
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Yeah, spent the evening doing the same to my laptops DAW-partition.
Got services down to 11. Everthing's working fine. PC is an old intel core 2duo CPU T5250 @ 1.50 Ghz, 2G RAM. It had Vista on it when I bought it, it sucked, replaced that with Win XP Pro SP3. LOL this is fun stuff and a good way to get to know your computer!
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:35 AM   #57
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Thanks, that was new for me .
I think I will ask my brother to build a cheap PC , only for IT work . And try Linux.
How do I have file extensions on ?
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Old 02-14-2013, 04:40 AM   #58
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Downloaded Puppy linux slacko as well, gonna be fun running linux again. Been quite a few years since I played with Linux, way back in the 90's. Guess I'll have to read up on that as well. I still remember it was a PIA to get linux running on my old Pentium MMX PC but sweet satisfaction once I got it going :-)
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Old 02-14-2013, 08:36 AM   #59
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See we computer store owners have been using linux live distros for years to boot up systems with no bootable Windows OS.

First it was the older PhLack Linux on CDROM, this allowed us to mount NTFS drives and backup data and prepared the Drive for the new Windows OS install if needed.


Years later now I am running Puppy Linux 100 meg ISO ( Slacko Puppy) image dumped into 1 gig flash drives since most if not all systems can boot off USB drives. This is fast and nice as you put in the USB stick and boot Puppy Linux and do whatever worked you need to get done then power down and it's like nothing ever happened.


Say a user left a password on his start screen? No problems boot puppy lunix off a USB flash drive or cd rom or heck it will run off an SD card put inside a sd card reader LOL and bypass that password to get to the files.


Basically we rely on Puppy Linux every day here and both par timers I have here had to learn it, it was easy .

The best part of a live linux distro like puppy linux is it can be used live on hundreds of different computers and laptops running on a 256 meg usb stick without having to be installed as on bootup it copies the content of is main system sfs file into ram so Puppy Linux runs off your ram and does not touch your drive.

I have Slacko Puppy on a usb jump drive stick ( XD 128 meg card and it's reader) and I carry that on a necklace LOL wherever I am I can get into any system because no one ever turns usb off the BIOS!!!!


We have been screaming at Microsoft for years for them to make a portable Windows OS, well Windows 8 TO GO is that edition but you need a big usb flash drive like 32 gigs so they need to make it around 4 gigs max.

For now I know every computer store out there is using some kind of live linux distro when fixing the machines .
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:42 AM   #60
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Yeah, this little puppy is great! Got it running from CD right now. Will make a bootable USB-stick in a moment. I like this!!
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:40 PM   #61
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I'm still a newbie with win 7. I actually haven't had any of the issuses with Vista that others always talk about (but to be fair, it is the 64 ultimate version). But this thread does give more things to streamline it and get a better performance out of it. I have a couple of Asus eeePc's that I upgraded the ram and second SSD to 2G/64G over the onboard 4G and stripped the XP OS and installed Linux Studio as the first boot. There are many things I really like with Linux but I can't seem to get the Wine app to find the windows DAW's yet. I have a tendency to miss a simple step with these things. But the win 7 slate I'm using isn't for exclusive studio so I really didn't want to dig into the services, but I found myself 'just looking around' in it today and turned off a couple of obvious services I didn't even know were in there (Parental Contols? Ha!) and uninstalled a couple of updaters that never did anything but bug me and the difference is well worth it. Thanks guys.
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Old 02-15-2013, 03:24 AM   #62
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Hey, this is the very best "tweaking Windows for audio" thread I've ever found!!!

Thank so much guys!

Puppy Linux? Never heard of it. Downloading the ISO. I'm on Kubuntu for anything but Audio but I'm open to a different good and reliable distro. Gonna try this one. Thanks Danfuerth!
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:45 AM   #63
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Default Intel rapid storage driver UNINSTALL ???

Another problem : when audio is OK I have nvidia driver 306.97 but this driver gives me problem with the REAPER screen , it freezes often during playback and when I scroll thru the tracks . So I installed the latest driver ( 310.90 ) , only the display driver , no 3D or PhsysX .
Immediately the audio problems was back .
But this time it was the Intel rapid storage technology driver that got the highest DPC .
I googled on that intel rapid driver and on several forums they said that one could uninstall that driver , is it true ?
I have disabled intel rapid but that didnīt help .
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Old 02-18-2013, 03:13 PM   #64
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Yes you can uninstall the driver.

In fact it is the number 2 recommendation in every Audio forum followed by the Intel Cpu scaling crap.



That is for Intel systems 2 very important tweeks.

I am on an AMD FX8 have all cpu scaling crap off as well.
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Old 02-18-2013, 04:17 PM   #65
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Thanks, much better when I uninstalled intel rapid storage .
But still the nvidia card disturb .
As fast as I get money I'll buy an Amd .
See if I can get the same you have.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:27 PM   #66
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But what graphic card do you have ?
It's my nviidia GT 520 that gives me most trouble.
When I now switched back to drivers 306.97 I have the latency on 528 us and even more.
It seems that I am back where we started.
Latency Mon says that it is nvidia that causes the high latency.
I have done all the major tweaks you said...
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:51 PM   #67
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You will hate me for this:
I recommend if you have a PCI video card at least 128 megs ( dirt cheap these days and try an ATI

for me I find Nvidia cards to hog the CPU too much.

I always use ATI (AMD) cards and have been doing this for many years now.

I have people who want Nvidia I only do what people ask me, I give them the Daw warnings, but it's mostly gamers anyways.

hard to believe this but on my AMD FX8 core I run a PCI video card.
I do not use it for gaming only video editing and Daw usage.


If you must know which one I have this video card:

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/p...n&sku=A0755431

running on this mobo with an AMD FX8 core

http://www.awd-it.co.uk/amd-bulldoze...am-bundle.html

although I did not get the bundle, LOL should of waited a bit... but needed the new machine for a Video editing project. But that is the Mobo I am running ( note I disabled the onboard video card and any other crap not needed like serial ports...)

I got it from new zealand for around 50$ shipped to my door . My buddy down in new zealand has access to OEM products from mainland china.

New zealand does not have OEM laws, prohibiting the sale of OEM barebones products to consumers.

A lot of my computer store parts come from there. Special adapters are pennies on the dollar compared to buying them here. They have flea markets there were all they sell is computer parts, here you would be arrested LOL!!

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Old 02-19-2013, 04:31 AM   #68
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Nooo ! I canīt see if there is passive cooling on your graphiccard ?
Iīm trying to make my PC so quite as possible .So the next thing I was thinking to buy was a powersupply without fans ( seasonic ) and some type of cabinet .
But now I have to proritate the graphiccard .
Do you I have to buy the AMD FX8 core to make a good studio PC ?
( I hope not because I got a good price on a Mytek DAC )
Is there anything more I can do take down the Latency from nvidia ?
What I can see it is 1 thing I canīt do without my brothers help : the custombatch to take down WLAN,DHCP .
But how can I see which services is running ?
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:24 AM   #69
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But what graphic card do you have ?
It's my nviidia GT 520 that gives me most trouble.
When I now switched back to drivers 306.97 I have the latency on 528 us and even more.
It seems that I am back where we started.
Latency Mon says that it is nvidia that causes the high latency.
I have done all the major tweaks you said...
Can it be some IRQ conflict ?
I had that with my Motu UltraLite mk3 Hybrid .(Windows couldnīt see the Motu)
My brother found that I had an IRQ conflict when he read this and the other thread :http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=116534
He done this : http://helpdeskgeek.com/windows-vist...ndows-vista-7/
and the advice in the article solved that problem .
Can I do the same with the nvidia drivers ?
( I canīt ask him now )
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Old 02-19-2013, 06:02 AM   #70
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Coincidentally, I just bought a dual DVI AMD video card to supplant the onboard GFX on my MOBO.

Was a no brainer at 10 UKP so it will be interesting to see what happens, performance wise.

pci-e of course.
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Old 02-19-2013, 07:23 AM   #71
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AMD FX 8 core? I was looking for these before buying my new outdated HP worksation last week... but read so many reviews and opinions (from gamers, mainly) saying that it's inferior to a decent current i5, so I discarded them and went my usual old Xeon workstaions route once again.... All this besides the 8 cores and being the AMD top of the range.

Are they a good choice for DAWs besides the critics? Their prices are more than appealing and really tempting.
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Old 02-19-2013, 10:03 AM   #72
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If you go price up you go with the I7, however we are talking half the price here for an AMD FX8

And in my opinion it's simple, Gaming Intel, Audio and Video editing is AMD now.

So for a gaming box ( I have built many) I get 70% more requests for an I7 than AMD CPU's


For me the AMDFX8 is better for Audio, I have tested the I7 in some deep tests, and the AMDFX8 is just tammer and you do not suffer from the Intel CPU scalling rolercoaster that a lot of people are complaining about with Audio Daw's ( having to disable the onboard BIOS CPU scaling is pretty bad for Intel).


So you get what you pay for it's that simple.

My AMDFX8 system was total $200 including the case. I looked up at some retail machines with an I5 and I7, lol double and triple
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:51 PM   #73
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Great. Understood. Thank you!

I'll try to figure out how to drop into my dead HP enclosure an Asus mobo and an AMD FX 8 core. But will reuse the Nvidia card for now.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:57 AM   #74
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Went over some more reviews and comparisons, this time trying to focus more on DAW. Having in mind the price difference (FX8150 or 8120 going for less than a half of an i7 980X). The 980X is obviously better, but the FX8150 results are not that far in most tasks. Specially multithreaded processing and multicore usage (as Reaper does). Price/performance for the AMDs is hard to beat, IMO.

These benchmarks looks promising.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:20 AM   #75
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Now the question is, What mobo for this CPU has a 3.3V 64-bit PCI-x slot for the RME 9652?
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:53 AM   #76
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This picture will tell you exactly because any Mobo you look at you have this guide to tell you

Last edited by danfuerth; 03-02-2013 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:39 PM   #77
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I have ordered this video card AMD :http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814102882
Hope it will solve the worst problem .
I read an advice from the Avid forum , they said that it is also good to disable the "High precision event timer" in the BIOS .
I tried that and REAPER sounds good but Latency Mon came up with another thing that causes high latency : hal.dll : Hardware abstraction layer DLL.Microsoft Corp.
What is that ? I have googled but canīt understand what it is .
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:32 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danfuerth View Post
This picture will tell you exactly because any Mobo you look at you have this guide to tell you
Yeah, Thanks Dan. I know that. The thing is I haven't found any yet. All Asus having PCI-X i've seen for now are all 32 bit 5 volt slots.

Keep on scouting.
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Old 02-22-2013, 04:47 AM   #79
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This is weird. Maybe I'm too used to the Mac and HP hardware, but 3.3V 64 bit PCI-X are everywhere and you hardly ever see a 5 volts PCI in them. But all the mobos I checked for the current AMD FX processors invatriably have 5 volts 32 bit PCI-Xs if any... Time to switch to a RME Raydat?
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Old 02-22-2013, 09:59 AM   #80
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Yep it sucks. For every move we do forward sometimes there is always 2 steps back

Always download the MOBO manual and see if the PCI slots support both 3.3v and 5 volts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_PCI

Please read and save and print that page


Posting this picture for you to print. Everyone should have this printed and posted on a wall.

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