Old 09-03-2008, 12:09 PM   #41
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this is really weird, because on mine they definitely do. are you sure all went well when transferring the syx? did you use midi ox? you might need to lower the transfer rate...

fab
Fab

why should I use midi ox, when with a factory default things (the exchanging of commands up and down) work fine? I should think that the connection between R and BCR is functioning.

I've started a thread here
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=25639
and hope that the Cockos team will give a definite answer to my problems. I really think that I should be able to define my own settings through the 'midi device' settings AND get feedback. Why the hell not? Are you able to get midi feedback through the 'midi devices' settings?
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:33 PM   #42
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are you sure all went well when transferring the syx?
Looking closely during the send process (sending the syx to the BCR) I do notice that there are errors. They pass very quickly. I think I see Err 11 and/or 17, but am not sure.

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you might need to lower the transfer rate...
How do I do that?

Meanwhile I am studying the reasoning behind the MCU design. Perhaps I can then appreciate it more?
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Old 09-03-2008, 01:13 PM   #43
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Not sure if this will be helpful, but I did finally resolve this issue to my satisfaction. Bardo contacted me about this, and here is the reply I sent to him, just in case it proves useful to others.

"Yes, I have the unit working pretty well. I did it by using a mix of setup options. Essentially, you have two choices when setting up the BCF2000 with Reaper. You can either interface using Options->Preferences->Control Surfaces or via the keyboard mapping under Options->Preferences->Midi Devices.

What I finally came up with was to use both options, one for output and one for input. This takes a little fiddling, but it works. Using the BCF2000 midi i/o option (I found the USB connection to be flaky, but YMMV), I set up for data going FROM the BCF under Options->Preferences->Midi Devices. I then set up for data coming back from Reaper under Options->Preferences->Control Surfaces, using the BCF preset 1 option. Note that you must select only the midi out here, as midi in is being handled under Midi Devices. Leave midi in null here.

This allows you to send from the BCF to Reaper and use all the keyboard mapping options under "Midi Devices", and to receive from Reaper via the "Control Surfaces" feedback mechanism that does exist in Reaper. Reaper will not send feedback for everything you keyboard map. It has a limited number of items it feeds back to the BCF, but they are the ones I need it to - faders, mute, solo, pan, etc.

You can also use multiple preset banks to control more than 8 tracks. When you finish programming one bank, just switch to the next and keep going. I generally have 32 tracks going on four banks. To do this, you have to change the default 9 tracks under the "Control Surfaces" options to the number of tracks you want to set up. I also changed the "offset" parameter here to -1 to get the Master fader out of the loop. I then programmed the Master fader to one of the top control knobs on its second bank.

Hope this all makes sense and is somewhat helpful."

Edit: Note that I am using the BCF2000. Don't know about the BCR unit. This may not be very helpful for it. It does seem to me though, that as Reaper is capable of sending certain items back to the unit, I don't know why it couldn't be made to map whatever you set up. But this FR has been around a while, and I've never seen a response from the dev team, much less an upgrade in functionality on this. And it could be SO cool. Maybe if we keep asking, the team will get to it.

-f

Last edited by flight; 09-03-2008 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:13 PM   #44
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Wow!! Nearly there! You were right. Only I had to set the offset to +1 in stead of -1. But now the volumes are okay. How did you go about the pans? What cc numbers did you assign?
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:08 AM   #45
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For bumping reasons and others:

I now have a setup just like flight suggests. This means that I am free to assign functions of Reaper to the BCR rotators and buttons. I also see that, using the BCF preset, there is a feedback connection. So far, so good!!

But this is not a real feedback loop. Let me illustrate: I have mute track 1 assigned with a knob via the actions list. If the feedback loop would really be closed, then clicking the mute button with my mouse with result in a response on the BCR. But nothing happens. I think (but I am by no means a tech person in this respect) that if Reaper would internally assign to the mute button of track 1 the cc number that I assign then this would work.

I guess I´ll have to wait patiently until the developing team have reach this topic in the pile of FRs.....

Meanwhile: is there a list of cc numbers of the BCF preset? There must be. Like: what is the cc number of the mute button of track 1 in a BCF? Or am I ranting silly stuff?
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Old 09-05-2008, 02:57 AM   #46
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For bumping reasons and others:



Meanwhile: is there a list of cc numbers of the BCF preset? There must be. Like: what is the cc number of the mute button of track 1 in a BCF? Or am I ranting silly stuff?
Go to the behringer site and download the bcf manual. It should have the cc numbers listed..

Quote from Flight
"What I finally came up with was to use both options, one for output and one for input. This takes a little fiddling, but it works. Using the BCF2000 midi i/o option (I found the USB connection to be flaky, but YMMV), I set up for data going FROM the BCF under Options->Preferences->Midi Devices. I then set up for data coming back from Reaper under Options->Preferences->Control Surfaces, using the BCF preset 1 option. Note that you must select only the midi out here, as midi in is being handled under Midi Devices. Leave midi in null here.

This allows you to send from the BCF to Reaper and use all the keyboard mapping options under "Midi Devices", and to receive from Reaper via the "Control Surfaces" feedback mechanism that does exist in Reaper"

Sheesh... Why didn't I think of that!!
I have been trying to work out how to set up bcf automation and custom settings for weeks..

Cheers for posting ( Should be a sticky for bcf users)
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Old 09-05-2008, 07:31 AM   #47
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I guess I should clarify that Reaper has pre-programmed certain functions for feedback, and only these functions. Depending on which mode you have the BCF running in (Mackie or whatever), and what mode you choose in Reaper under Control Devices, you get different feedback. I use the default BCF mode, using preset one.

This means that the faders get feedback, the first row of buttons is for Mute, the second row is for Solo, the top rotaries control pan, and the lower right four buttons control transport functions such as Play, Pause, Record, etc. These are the functions that Reaper sends back, and the BCR responds to these irrespective of what you have programmed. So I choose to use the unit as the feedback dictates.

In addition, I have made the top rotary "push-button" mode control track record arming, but there is no tell-tale light or feedback for this. Obviously not the best of all worlds, as I would rather have record arm on the buttons with a tell-tale, but there it is. Works for me, and with bank switching, I get 32 tracks out of one device, with reasonable feedback.

And yes, I meant to say "+1", not "-1". My bad.

Anyway, if we keep bumping this thing, maybe one day true programmable feedback will be available... Probably not a high priority, but it would be nice, no?

-f

-f
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Old 09-05-2008, 08:38 AM   #48
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well i tried again yesterday after some time (MCU mode being useful for me currently only when mixing which i do not do a lot of) and it would not work any more.

with the BCR with MCU preset and only CS input enabled, yes. but with CS output enabled, too, all the faders keep hanging at the top of the scale whenever i move an encoder.

i am sorry for any confusion, a few versions before, everything worked fine for me.

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Old 09-05-2008, 08:39 AM   #49
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I'm all in with a "BUMP"
Got most of my BCF set-up.
Not sure how to work the BC editor yet.
The behringer BCF Manual does not list all the cc's by the way.
But in the Editor I think I can look up which pre-set buttons have which cc's.
I usally(always)try and use the "learn" function.
But does not always take.
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Old 09-05-2008, 05:47 PM   #50
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Bump bump bump to the top!
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Old 09-06-2008, 11:27 AM   #51
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well i tried again yesterday after some time (MCU mode being useful for me currently only when mixing which i do not do a lot of) and it would not work any more.

with the BCR with MCU preset and only CS input enabled, yes. but with CS output enabled, too, all the faders keep hanging at the top of the scale whenever i move an encoder.

i am sorry for any confusion, a few versions before, everything worked fine for me.

fab
After more fiddling and trying to get to the core, I have lost my feedback as well. I was trying to get feedback through the MIDI event list editor. I thought that perhaps this list would allow me to connect the feedback. But to no avail.....
Yeah, let's bump this until we drop.
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:33 PM   #52
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Default Hmmmm.....

I guess I'm not understanding what it is folks are trying to do with their BCF units. By using the method I posted above, you can get fader, mute, solo, pan and record arm for pretty much as many tracks as you want. And the fader, mute, solo and pan all have feedback via midi.

What other uses are we looking for?

-f
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Old 09-06-2008, 03:39 PM   #53
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Oh, one other thing I have noticed. I hooked Midi-Ox up to Reaper using Midi Yoke, to see what Reaper is sending back to the BCF unit. According to Midi-Ox, Reaper sends exactly the same data no matter what action is taken.

I got the same data for record arming a track that I did for moving a slider. I therefor assume that I have either hooked something up wrong, or there is some hidden data that Midi-Ox is not getting. Anyone have a good way to intercept what Reaper is feeding back to the control surface?

-f
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:40 PM   #54
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[QUOTE=flight;228063]I guess I'm not understanding what it is folks are trying to do with their BCF units. By using the method I posted above, you can get fader, mute, solo, pan and record arm for pretty much as many tracks as you want. And the fader, mute, solo and pan all have feedback via midi.

What other uses are we looking for
Myself,I would like the footswitch to be used for punch in"s
I tried the learn function and it say "good" but only seems to ethier start playback or pause.
I spent about four hours programing in edit mode to get my first three presets to work.
Looks like the only one I'm missing that you have is "arming"the track.
Did you use the "learn function" or Bc edit window?
What button are you using for this?

Bardo
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:53 AM   #55
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[QUOTE=bardo;228083]
Quote:
Originally Posted by flight View Post
I guess I'm not understanding what it is folks are trying to do with their BCF units. By using the method I posted above, you can get fader, mute, solo, pan and record arm for pretty much as many tracks as you want. And the fader, mute, solo and pan all have feedback via midi.

What other uses are we looking for
Myself,I would like the footswitch to be used for punch in"s
I tried the learn function and it say "good" but only seems to ethier start playback or pause.
I spent about four hours programing in edit mode to get my first three presets to work.
Looks like the only one I'm missing that you have is "arming"the track.
Did you use the "learn function" or Bc edit window?
What button are you using for this?

Bardo
Sorry Bardo, probably can't help with this, as I don't have a footswitch and don't know what footswitch you're referring to.

I also don't use any "Learn" function, unless you mean Reaper's keyboard mapping. To program what's coming to Reaper from the BCF, I use the keyboard shortcuts under Preferences->Keyboard, or under the newer Action List. You simply pick the action you want to control, and then press the device (button, switch, slider, whatever) on the BCF2000. The CC code is captured by Reaper and mapped to the action you want.

For example, to set up record arming of a track, you can go to the Action List or Keyboard shortcuts, select "Arm Track One" or whatever, then push the upper left rotary control (which is both a rotary and a push button). Reaper traps the CC command sent from the BCF and assigns it to "Arm Track One". Keep going with each track for as many tracks and banks of tracks you want.

As I said above, what I choose to do is map thing that Reaper gives feedback on (such as sliders) to the functions Reaper is set up to feedback. In other words, I map sliders to volume functions, the first row of BCF buttons to Track Mute functions, the second row of buttons to track Solo functions, because that's what Reaper is programmed to send back via midi. Functions beyond what Reaper is set up to give feedback for, I still map to Reaper Actions, but there just isn't any feedback for them. As Reaper feeds back for most of the BCF controls in a way that makes sense, I don't much care.

Anyway, good luck with your footswitch thing. And if anybody has a good way to trap Reaper's feedback midi messages (see my other post about Midi-Yoke, above), I'm still interested!

-f
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:34 AM   #56
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Hey Flight,

I don't understand why I lost my connections. Prolly I am just not accurate enough with my settings. So, I will have to sit down and work it out again. Not trying to do it in minutes but hours. I saw that for some reason or another the BCF settings and the BCR settings are quite different, even for the buttons.
I use Birdie's bcfredit.exe utility for changing the settings in my BCR. The Behringer jar I find totally useless.
http://www.jossmolders.nl/tools/bfredit.exe
There's also a bc manager (available via the bc2000 yahoo group) but that one's too complicated for my noobian midi mind.

Problem is that I;m swamped in work at the moment so I;ll have to leave at this, for the time being.
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:44 AM   #57
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Not sure what link that is.
When I click on it,it is all sponser's(nothing zipped or for download)
Do I need to regester on that site or what.

Bardo
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:43 PM   #58
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For example, to set up record arming of a track, you can go to the Action List or Keyboard shortcuts, select "Arm Track One" or whatever, then push the upper left rotary control (which is both a rotary and a push button). Reaper traps the CC command sent from the BCF and assigns it to "Arm Track One

Hmmm,,?
This did not seem to work for me.
I did what you said using the asign keyboard short cuts but when I pushed the encoder(or any other button)Reaper did not receive the cc.
What is strange is it seems to pick up my other cc'c
Is the "action list"the same as the keyboard short cuts?
I'll try again after the Bears game.
Go Bears!
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Old 09-07-2008, 07:16 PM   #59
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Ok,found the problem....
On "enable BCF"I did not select cc control.
Looks like it works!!!!!
Whoooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:34 PM   #60
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Not sure what link that is.
When I click on it,it is all sponser's(nothing zipped or for download)
Do I need to regester on that site or what.

Bardo
No, just right click. It's on my private site. So no sponsors, spam-, spy- or other ware or anything.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:28 AM   #61
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No probs,
I already have the BC editor.
When I try your link now I get the "error 404"
Maybe it's my work cpu.
Got my BCF working pretty good now.
How about You?
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:28 AM   #62
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No probs,
I already have the BC editor.
When I try your link now I get the "error 404"
Maybe it's my work cpu.
Got my BCF working pretty good now.
How about You?
Bardo
Whew! Good news, that. Glad you got it going.

-f
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:37 AM   #63
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Hey Flight,

I don't understand why I lost my connections. Prolly I am just not accurate enough with my settings. So, I will have to sit down and work it out again. Not trying to do it in minutes but hours. I saw that for some reason or another the BCF settings and the BCR settings are quite different, even for the buttons.
I use Birdie's bcfredit.exe utility for changing the settings in my BCR. The Behringer jar I find totally useless.
http://www.jossmolders.nl/tools/bfredit.exe
There's also a bc manager (available via the bc2000 yahoo group) but that one's too complicated for my noobian midi mind.

Problem is that I;m swamped in work at the moment so I;ll have to leave at this, for the time being.
Using the method I am using, you shouldn't have to edit anything in the BCF editor at all. Just plug the BCF in using a standard midi two-way connection (both input and output cabling).

Set up the BCF to run using midi. Otherwise leave it in the default mode (everything the way it booted up from the factory). Go into Reaper and set up Preferences->Midi Devices to enable the BCF for "Control only".

Now go to Preferences->Control Surfaces. Add an interface for the "BCF2000 using Preset One". Now edit this interface for Midi Output ONLY! No input parameters, leave input blank.

Now program your keystrokes in Reaper. You should be ready to rock and roll. If not, then check to make sure your midi connections are working.

Good luck. Hope this does it for you.

-f

Last edited by flight; 09-08-2008 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:59 AM   #64
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Using the method I am using, you shouldn't have to edit anything in the BCF editor at all. Just plug the BCF in using a standard midi two-way connection (both input and output cabling).

Set up the BCF to run using midi. Otherwise leave it in the default mode (everything the way it booted up from the factory). Go into Reaper and set up Preferences->Midi Devices to enable the BCF for "Control only".

Now go to Preferences->Control Surfaces. Add an interface for the "BCF2000 using Preset One". Now edit this interface for Midi Output ONLY! No input parameters, leave input blank.

Now program your keystrokes in Reaper. You should be ready to rock and roll. If not, then check to make sure your midi connections are working.

Good luck. Hope this does it for you.

-f
I used the bc manager after viewing the videos at the bc group today. And lo and behold, I got things wojking! It took a while before I found out that I had to close bc manager before using Reaper....

Now, I see that the top row of the rotators is for the trackvols. The buttons are for mutes and solos. I see that currently start and pauze are located at the left of the middle row of the rotators. I can change that of course, by designating the cc's to another button.
So, that's it? What about tracks 9-16? and 17-23? Pans are where? Or is Reaper not ready for that state of the art controlling_ ?
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Old 09-08-2008, 11:54 AM   #65
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Reaper is ready for this a least(still no VST support yet)
I'm using the Fader version but should be pretty close to the same set up as you.
Track volume,solo,mute,record arm and select,on tracks 1-8 I set up and save into preset#1
Track volume,solo,mute,record arm and select,on tracks 9-16 I set up and save into preset#2
Track volume,solo,mute,record arm and select,on tracks 17-24 I set up and save into preset#3

Get the ideal?
If I need more than 24 tracks I'll make more pre-sets.
I also use this as a Reaper Template called 24 track mixer.
Glad you got it working!
It takes time but I'm sure it will pay-off in mixing speed.

Bardo
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Old 09-08-2008, 12:17 PM   #66
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Quote:
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Reaper is ready for this a least(still no VST support yet)
I'm using the Fader version but should be pretty close to the same set up as you.
Track volume,solo,mute,record arm and select,on tracks 1-8 I set up and save into preset#1
Track volume,solo,mute,record arm and select,on tracks 9-16 I set up and save into preset#2
Track volume,solo,mute,record arm and select,on tracks 17-24 I set up and save into preset#3

Get the ideal?
i DO get the idea. I copied the settings of preset 1 into preset 2 and thought Reaper would get the idea but it doesn't (and so: neither do I). The cc numbers of track 1 - 8 are cc81 - c88 but what are the cc's of tracks 9-16?

I feel rather dense..... and the worst is that I most probably am.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:14 PM   #67
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the way i used to use was set all knobs/buttons etc on preset 1 to send on midi channel 1, preset 2 on midi channel 2, preset 3 on channel 3 etc.
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Old 09-08-2008, 03:44 PM   #68
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I think Rinky is right,I used the same cc numbers but different midi channels.
I'll double check when I get home tonight.

Bardo
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:37 PM   #69
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I think Rinky is right,I used the same cc numbers but different midi channels.
I'll double check when I get home tonight.

Bardo
Okay, checked that. With me, only channel 9 works but no further (10 and up). Does this have to do with the number nine in the window where I assign the BCF preset1 stuff?

Is it possible that you send me your syx? So I can check that?
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:03 AM   #70
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Yes it does,The button that say's"`don't touch unless you know whatca doing kiddio"
Change that number nine(turn me on deadman)to however many tracks(not channels right?)you want to use.
In my 24 track mixer I chose 24 instead of nine.

By the way,The cc's on the faders stayed the same only the midi channels change.
So Fader #1,cc 1,midi channel #1
Fader #9,cc#1,midi channel #2 and so on.

Worked last night getting my "ARM TRACK" programed for all 24 tracks using pre-sets 1,2 and 3.
Came on to some weird stuff.
I was using the"Push encoders"for arming but somtimes Reaper sends double cc's.
Example,for some reason the keystroke function in Reaper is asigning tracks 11 and 12 the same cc for "ARM TRACK'.Also gets the pan(rotate encoder)mixed up with ARM TRACK(push encoder).

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Old 09-09-2008, 10:23 AM   #71
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*humms tune* > "I'm in heaven...."

Somewhere we should write a sticky for this. Now we know this works for both BCR and BCF. I will try later this evening. Bardo, thank you so much for standing by me!! Really appreciate that!
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Last edited by earlabs; 09-09-2008 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:18 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by bardo View Post
Came on to some weird stuff.
I was using the"Push encoders"for arming but somtimes Reaper sends double cc's.
Example,for some reason the keystroke function in Reaper is asigning tracks 11 and 12 the same cc for "ARM TRACK'.Also gets the pan(rotate encoder)mixed up with ARM TRACK(push encoder).

Bardo
What I am encountering now is a very nervous BCR. It is constantly sending messages to Reaper. The result is that when I want to assign a certain cc number to MUTE track 11 (chan 1 cc 75) and I click add it instantly inserts "chan 0 cc 1". How weird is that? THe display is constantly flipping numbers. Flight wrote that he found the USB connection to be flaky. Do you encounter the same, Bardo? And Flight, is this flakiness what I describe here? I'll post on the BC yahoo forum as well and see what surfs up.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:54 AM   #73
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I am also using USB.
Maybe that is the problem I was having.
Yours sounds even stranger.
Have you tried the "Learn"function?
That seem the easiest way with the mute,solo and faders(rotos for you)

Learn Function:Hold down the learn button on your BCF(R) and move the knob on the BCF(R) that you want to use.
The display should read E,,(somthing for edit)
Now push the mute button in Reaper using your mouse.
The display should read"GOOD"

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Old 09-09-2008, 02:32 PM   #74
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I think I've nailed it down. It appears that the 5th rotator on the bottom line is not working properly. I have disconnected it from any controlling function by just not assigning a cc number. Now all is quiet, no more nervous number switching in the display. Pfewww... Of course it's not good that that rotator is not working properly but I've plenty of rotators anyway

Okay, the sticky text will have to wait a few days. I'm off to bed.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:38 PM   #75
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Have a good one!
Glad your up to speed.
2:30pm here in San diego
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:39 PM   #76
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Okay, the sticky text will have to wait a few days
??????
Whats the sticky text?
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Old 09-09-2008, 09:25 PM   #77
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Okay, the sticky text will have to wait a few days
??????
Whats the sticky text?
The text I suggested I few posts up. I think we have found the definitive method to connect a BCR/BCF to Reaper. Perhaps Nicholas can include it in his manual.

Another matter (as this seems to become our own little private thread ) : I notice that when I start up the BCR and then Reaper and I open a project, it's like I have to 'kiss everyone awake'. If preset 1 is on at the BCR then I see immediate change, but the other presets I have to touch and nudge a bit to have everyone ready.
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Old 09-10-2008, 12:38 AM   #78
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The text I suggested I few posts up. I think we have found the definitive method to connect a BCR/BCF to Reaper. Perhaps Nicholas can include it in his manual.

Another matter (as this seems to become our own little private thread ) : I notice that when I start up the BCR and then Reaper and I open a project, it's like I have to 'kiss everyone awake'. If preset 1 is on at the BCR then I see immediate change, but the other presets I have to touch and nudge a bit to have everyone ready.
Yeah, I actually developed a macro using AutoHotKey (downloadable on the web) to do this. I didn't want to "nudge" the controls, and it turns out that going to Preferences->Control Surfaces, selecting the BCF2000, pressing EDIT, and then OK will re-initialize everything on the current preset bank.

So now, whenever I change projects, I run the macro, switch to the next preset bank, run the macro, and so on for all the banks. Might want to try that yourselves.

Edit: Now what would be even cooler would be to get Justin to create an action to make this re-initialization available by a keystroke. And to make bank switching from Reaper. Then we could write a Reaper macro to re-init, switch bank, re-init, etc, all with a single keystroke. Load your project, hit the hot key, zippo, everything is initialized.

-f

Last edited by flight; 09-10-2008 at 12:47 AM.
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:01 AM   #79
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Yeah, I actually developed a macro using AutoHotKey (downloadable on the web) to do this. I didn't want to "nudge" the controls, and it turns out that going to Preferences->Control Surfaces, selecting the BCF2000, pressing EDIT, and then OK will re-initialize everything on the current preset bank.

So now, whenever I change projects, I run the macro, switch to the next preset bank, run the macro, and so on for all the banks. Might want to try that yourselves.

Edit: Now what would be even cooler would be to get Justin to create an action to make this re-initialization available by a keystroke. And to make bank switching from Reaper. Then we could write a Reaper macro to re-init, switch bank, re-init, etc, all with a single keystroke. Load your project, hit the hot key, zippo, everything is initialized.

-f
Flight, you're way ahead of the rest This is 110 times more efficient. Okay, so now I move on the AHK. Read a lot about it. Will check that out! Thanks!
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Old 09-10-2008, 01:10 AM   #80
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actually, with flight's method you lose the banking functionality of the MCU.

WHEN i had it working (and no faders hanging like now), i put it in complete mackie mode - so it was connected to control surface input and output.

i used only one of the arthunkins presets.

i could use two buttons on the second top button row to switch channel banks, 8 channels at a a time. clicking on the channels also worked. i then got mute, solo, arm track, fader, pan for the chosen bank with feedback.

this method allows no customization, though - what is possible depends on what justin (and soon klinke!) have implemented for us. e.g. no´vst control. so this is more for mixing, not for sound editing and plaiyng vsts.

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