Old 07-22-2007, 09:09 PM   #1
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Default Control surface feedback

Before posting a feature request, I wanted to check and make sure the functionality doesn't already exist, or that the feature hasn't already been requested. Haven't seen mention of it anywhere, but I could have missed it.

Wondering if Reaper has the capacity to feedback to a control surface such as the Behringer BCF2000, so changes made on screen with a mouse are reflected back to the control surface? The BCF2000 has the capacity to respond to MIDI commands, so theoretically a change to, say, a fader onscreen could feedback to keep the corresponding control surface slider in sync.

Does the functionality exist? If not, is there already a FR that anyone knows of to implement this?

-f
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Old 07-23-2007, 09:33 PM   #2
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Default Update

After reading the post
"BCF2000 in Mackie Mode - Was working, now broken " in this forum, I got enough information to set up the BCF2000 NOT as described on pages 72-74 in the Reaper manual (Preferences->Audio->MIDI devices), but instead to set it up under Preferences->Control Surfaces as [BCF2000(using preset 1)]. Now changes to faders and other controls on screen reflect back to the BCF2000. Very, very cool.

However, the control relationships that I had laboriously set up under Preferences->MIDI devices are no longer being used.

For example, I had set up a bank of buttons on the BCF2000 to arm corresponding tracks for recording. these buttons now mute their corresponding tracks, and I'm not finding a way to change this. So it would appear that one must trade off feedback synchronization for the ability to choose which Reaper functions the control surface elements manage. Is this the case or am I missing something?
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Old 07-23-2007, 11:48 PM   #3
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Heya flight

Use your encoder groups to create arm switches. The default BCF control surface template works very well and has parameter feedback for the motorized faders.

I have my BCF labelled and programmed to do all sorts of things in reaper.

PS. Make sure you have the latest BFC FLASH update installed or all your settings get erratically lost.

Last edited by artkau; 07-23-2007 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:24 AM   #4
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Default About your setup

Hey Artkau,
Thanks for the reply. Do you have your BCF set up under Preferences->Audio->MIDI devices or under Preferences->Control Surfaces?
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:26 PM   #5
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Hey again Artkau,
The only thing I see in the manual about programming a control interface for Reaper has to do with keystroke assignments (starting on pg. 71 of the manual). But when programmed this way (through Preferences->Audio->Midi devices) there is no parameter feedback. When set up under (Preferences->Control surfaces), the default template has feedback, but doesn't use the key assignments ASFAIK.

What is your setup and how are you going about changing/programming the template?

Thanks,
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Old 07-24-2007, 11:55 PM   #6
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Heya flight. You are able to use the BCF as a control surface configured in the Control Surfaces menu as well as use the knobs and buttons for keyboard shortcuts. There shouldn't be any conflict at all.

What I have done is made sure that the first three programs for the BCF all have totally different CC ID's, then I set up the first two Program banks for tracks 1 - 16. The 3rd program I use for 'learning' fx parameters. Using the encoder groups 2, 3 and 4 I train the push encoder knobs for my reaper keyboard shortcuts. I even have splitting and transport assigned to these.

What particular troubles are you having? It worked perfectly well out of box for me?
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:12 AM   #7
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I have a BCR2000 and I tried it as a BCF2000 control surface.

I could use it to control 8 first tracks (pan, volume and mute)
withg the parameter feedback.


But if i use my BCR, after configure it in the MIDI setting section, I can assign a button, fader, a VST parameter, in REAPER with "learn ability" to control and autromate it, but WITHOUT parameter feedback

Maybe, flight, it's the point you considere as a trouble?

Artkau : Is your berhinger controller have the same behaviour for you?


ps: I already make a thread about that: How can I get a parameter feedback of a VSTi, with my BCR2000? and fab suggest me to post in this thread : Generic remote and Mackie Control improvements

There is also this following thread : The BIG MIDI REQUEST to ask improvement about MIDI and control surface improvement
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Old 07-25-2007, 12:57 AM   #8
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I have noticed that parameter feedback seems only to be for faders, pans and solos and mutes. This is by design I think. So no. You will not get parameter feedback for FX.

Yes, that would be AWESOME!
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Old 07-25-2007, 01:07 AM   #9
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I found this video on youtube: it seems that Ableton Live do already that:

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=mpfqaf5c5rc


I want the same thing for reaper !


ps: and I post in the "BIG MIDI REQUEST" Topic

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Old 07-25-2007, 06:17 PM   #10
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Here's another Youtube video, this time on the BCF2000 at

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=gNh5dfrGYSY&NR=1

Quote:
Originally Posted by artkau View Post
What particular troubles are you having? It worked perfectly well out of box for me?
Becoming less of a "problem" all the time. It started out looking for parameter feedback, which Preferences->Control Surfaces provides. But the default Preset 1 or Mackie preset override the keystroke assignments I had made. So I'm trading feedback for control over what button performs what function.

Also, it does seem to be a conflict to have the BCF set up under both Preferences->Control Surfaces and under Preferences->Audio->Midi Devices. Reaper can only open the BCF Midi ports under one or the other, not under both at the same time.

So if you have successfully programmed around the default Preset 1 or Mackie template, I'm all ears to hear how you did it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Orfilinn
But if i use my BCR, after configure it in the MIDI setting section, I can assign a button, fader, a VST parameter, in REAPER with "learn ability" to control and autromate it, but WITHOUT parameter feedback
Yes, it seems that if you want to program or assign buttons or faders, you have to give up parameter feedback, or vice versa. That's the issue I'm having.

Justin, are you out there? Where does the default Prefs->Control Surface template exist, and is it accessible for editing? We're looking for a little cake and eating it too thing here...

-f
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:24 AM   #11
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+1 yesyesyes +1 for excpecially eq parameter feedback in any way
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Old 01-02-2008, 07:02 PM   #12
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Default ...joining along in digging out and bumpin' threads requesting controller feedback...

C'mon y'all!

We be needin' di-rect.


Yes.
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Old 01-10-2008, 07:58 AM   #13
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Bump...
Bump...
Bump...
Bump...
Bump...

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Old 01-18-2008, 12:54 AM   #14
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let me bump too ;-)
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:30 AM   #15
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it's about the 5th thread but-
+1 bump again
f
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:10 PM   #16
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Kind of a bumper myself...

F.
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Old 01-29-2008, 01:12 AM   #17
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please Justin

It could be so useful for those who use midi control surface such as BCR2000


I hope you can code that soon, it already works with control surface in 'surfaces control settings' in reaper preferences

but we need it when when we midi-bind VST parameter

Could you tell us if you plan to develop that?
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Old 08-27-2008, 01:00 PM   #18
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Bump!
Ok,Ill jump on board!

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Old 08-31-2008, 12:21 PM   #19
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and here's another bump. I just can't get my BCR2000 to receive feedback. It would be so nice to have that when I am finished with my pretty little new studio.....
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Old 08-31-2008, 03:52 PM   #20
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there's another thread on this board regarding using a Yamaha control surface in reaper like a MCU.
A few people mentioned in the thread about using the Ableton lIve/MCU emulation preset in the BCR2000 to work with the Yamaha files with Reaper.
The end result being the BCR2000 controls Reaper with feedback to the BCR2000

I've managed to get it working with my BCR2000, the only snag is the Husker Vu window only shows track names but no parameter values. Meanwhile I've got my BCR controlling Reaper and the lights on my BCR change when I use the mouse to fiddle with things on the screen, its coolio for sure!!!, I'll see if i can find the thread.
.
.
....here it is:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ght=yamaha+01x

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Old 09-01-2008, 12:26 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RinkyD View Post
there's another thread on this board regarding using a Yamaha control surface in reaper like a MCU.
A few people mentioned in the thread about using the Ableton lIve/MCU emulation preset in the BCR2000 to work with the Yamaha files with Reaper.
The end result being the BCR2000 controls Reaper with feedback to the BCR2000

I've managed to get it working with my BCR2000, the only snag is the Husker Vu window only shows track names but no parameter values. Meanwhile I've got my BCR controlling Reaper and the lights on my BCR change when I use the mouse to fiddle with things on the screen, its coolio for sure!!!, I'll see if i can find the thread.
.
.
....here it is:
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ght=yamaha+01x
Thanks Rink!
I'll go and try this later today and report back.
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Old 09-01-2008, 02:25 PM   #22
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Well, I've spent four hours this evening, using midi ox, midiyoke, huskervu, bcmanager and what not. The result was that Reaper fucked up completely so that I had to revert to default settings.

I uninstalled everything again and am back to where I was earlier today. I have applied membership at the bc2000 yahoo group to ask for help.

*sigh*
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Old 09-01-2008, 03:38 PM   #23
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hi earlabs, I had a few problems getting things working correctly, took a wee while to get it sorted, my main probs was not setting up midiox properly. Let me know what probs you're having and I might be able to help you out.
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Old 09-01-2008, 11:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RinkyD View Post
hi earlabs, I had a few problems getting things working correctly, took a wee while to get it sorted, my main probs was not setting up midiox properly. Let me know what probs you're having and I might be able to help you out.
hi Rink, thanks for that offer!
What timezone are you living in? Perhaps we can open a chat while I'm tinkering with the apps? I'm living in Holland which means GMT +1. I am usually only working on this in the evening since my job currently requires all of daylight time
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Old 09-02-2008, 03:00 AM   #25
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earlabs,

best thing you can do ATM for mixing with bcr2000: get the MCU presets from the yahoo group and use it as a MCU within reaper. easy.

huskervu doesn't work for me either.

MCU in reaper has limited funcitons, though: no VST control.

fab
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Old 09-02-2008, 03:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fab View Post
earlabs,

best thing you can do ATM for mixing with bcr2000: get the MCU presets from the yahoo group and use it as a MCU within reaper. easy.

huskervu doesn't work for me either.

MCU in reaper has limited funcitons, though: no VST control.

fab
hi fab,

thanks for your tip. So, what I do is this?
BCR
upload the mcu.syx to my bcr

REAPER
go to preferences > control surfaces
pick "mackie control universal"
choose "usb device" for midi input and midi output

And: do the sends (from R to BCR) work then?
And: what do I do at preferences > midi devices?
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlabs View Post

go to preferences > control surfaces
pick "mackie control universal"
choose "usb device" for midi input and midi output
yes! i think there are two MCU .syx with differeing featuresets, originally made and explained by art hunkins.

Quote:
And: do the sends (from R to BCR) work then?
sorry, not sure - but interested as well

Quote:
what do I do at preferences > midi devices?
nothing - disable it. some people have been using it for both, control surface and normal midi controller for vsts, but for me it did not work well.
MCU is just a bunch of normal MIDI messages, so there will be confusion if you use it for both.

unfortunately, i think bcr2000 has no way to assign pages/presets/encoders to different hardware outputs.

extra tip: get the donationware bc manager editor from yahoo group, it is great!

fab
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:17 AM   #28
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I used the bmc3mcu.syx and uploaded that to my BCR. It seems to work. HA! but oh strangitude, the rotators are completely dead.... There's no comforting tiny light. The play, pause, stop buttons work. I can select tracks by clicking in the upper button row. And I can pan tracks (without the leds lighting). I have not been able to find out where the volume controls are... And why are the lower rotation knobs not in use?

*totally confused*

EDIT
Okay, Nth trial and error. Based on the factory preset of the BCR I am now trying to get things working. I have gotten some place now.
I have found the following (mind you, I am a total noob at the MIDI front, so please laugh your head off if you must)
Master volume is cc81
volume track 1 = cc82
up to
volume track 7 = cc 88
I have programmed the lower row of rotators for this.
I also noticed that mute buttons for track 1 to 7 ranges from cc74 to cc80
I have programmed the lower punch buttons for this.
The 2nd row of the lower rotators I would like to use for pans. BUT, I can't find the cc numbers for those....
I also found that:
play/pause = cc89
stop = cc90
play backward = cc91
play forward = cc92

Is there a complete table for this? I have tried reactions within Reaper when using lower cc numbers but to no avail.

At one issue there is success: the midi feedback IS WORKING. Now on to our next victory!
Attached Files
File Type: zip BCR2MCU.zip (6.7 KB, 90 views)
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:36 PM   #29
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This is great news!
I have been trying to find the cc's for these.
Now is this preset you have zipped only for the BCR?
I just got my BCF and got the Mackie mode to work but like you I needed feedback from Reaper to set up my own.
One more thing,did you find the control cc for RECORD?

Bardo
EDIT:I see it is also for BCF
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bardo View Post
This is great news!
I have been trying to find the cc's for these.
Now is this preset you have zipped only for the BCR?
I just got my BCF and got the Mackie mode to work but like you I needed feedback from Reaper to set up my own.
One more thing,did you find the control cc for RECORD?

Bardo
EDIT:I see it is also for BCF
Hmm, I forgot to mention that I am now using the BCF preset in Reaper. And I must emphasize that I use the factory preset of Behringer as a starter. There are actually a lot of questions, that I still have. Like how about the panning of the tracks, solo, what about controlling tracks 8 and up?
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Old 09-02-2008, 01:54 PM   #31
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It looks like the cc numbers are hardwired to specific parts of Reaper. Like master volume = cc81 and master mute = cc73. Is there a complete list of cc numbers?
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Old 09-02-2008, 04:43 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlabs View Post

Is there a complete table for this? I have tried reactions within Reaper when using lower cc numbers but to no avail.
Are you talking about the Mackie control?
The complete table is here:
http://members.aol.com/mhigrules/MCMap.htm

But actually no need to know this if you use the BCR/BCF in MCU mode.
I use the Ableton Live preset from here and parameter feedback is working:
http://www.geocities.jp/mackicrokontrol/

You can control more than eight tracks via bank change.
Like it's already been said, controlling and feedback of vst is not (yet) implement using Mackie control in Reaper.
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earlabs View Post
hi Rink, thanks for that offer!
What timezone are you living in? Perhaps we can open a chat while I'm tinkering with the apps? I'm living in Holland which means GMT +1. I am usually only working on this in the evening since my job currently requires all of daylight time

I'm in Ireland so I'm GMT, and I have to work during the day so I can only mess about with these things at night too.

Anyways, its not too difficult to sort out, just took me a few thoughts to figure out the settings.

BTW, this uses the ableton live mcu emulator preset as a yamaha 01x emulating a mcu but it works

follow the instructions in this thread: (read the whole thing though, not just the first post, it gets updated and walks through most of the instructions)http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ght=yamaha+01x

use the mcu preset from here: http://shoshin.110mb.com/genmce/bcr2...ts/presets.htm

(it overwrites your preset 2 so make a copy of it if you've got something there you want to keep)

make sure you disable your bcr2000 in reapers midi control section

make sure you select the yamaha 01x in reapers control surface section and set the input to bcr2000 and output to the midid yoke channel that corresponds to the husker vu input , then husker vu output to bcr2000

so your chain is bcr>reaper (control surface input = bcr)then reaper (control surface ouotput)>midiyoke>huskervu (input = midiyoke channel, output=bcr)>bcr

to make this all work after the routings are right you gotta start your BCR first then midiox then husker vu then reaper
I ususlly have to turn on the bcr then reboot with the bcr turned on to get the thing to work, when it does its supafine hope this helps

nearly forgot, you have to set the input and output in midiox correctly as well otherwise you'll either get a midi loop, the controller moving the reaper faders but no feedback or the mouse movements on faders etc in reaper giving feedback to bcr but the bcr not controlling anything in reaper

just had another thought, i'm using the bcr with a usb connection, don't know if this works with the midi connection (don't see why not though)

Last edited by RinkyD; 09-02-2008 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 06:31 PM   #34
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Does anyone know if it's possible to chain multiple bcf2000's together in reaper to say build 32 motorized faders that reaper will feedback too and control from the screen as well?
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Old 09-02-2008, 09:50 PM   #35
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WOW, you guys really work late hours! But thanks very much for your kind remarks. Currently I have the BCR working, with feedback, through BCF preset and no midiyoke necessary. Just plain up and down. The dilemma for me is that that is where it stops. I get 8 tracks volume control and some start/stop etc. But no panning, no assigning to vst's. If I delete the control surface and connect through the actions panel then there is no feedback...

So how come I AM able to connect from R to BCR via control surface and not via MIDI device? The connection cán be made, after all.
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Old 09-03-2008, 05:33 AM   #36
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thanks for the hint about huskervu! will try this again.

earlabs,

strange, my arthunkins presets (from yahoo or his site)

- see here www.arthunkins.com/Behringer2MCUPresets.zip
and www.arthunkins.com/Behringer2MCUPresets.txt

work with panning, bank swichting and all. why don't you try those again? of course you can figure out some stuff on your own, but not all ist midi CCs. e.g. afaik channel faders are pitchbend messages on ch1-8

the arthunkins preset mainly uses the top row of encoders (th push encoders). of course, you can copy the first group to the non-push encoders to have volume faders duplicated so they will available e.g. when panning.

connecting the bcr2000 to both CS and midi inputs in reaper will send MCU messages to vsts and stuff. so you will get midi note messages sent into your synths and such - at full velocity (PLONK!), pitchbend messages etc. :

not cool.

fab

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Old 09-03-2008, 07:05 AM   #37
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Okay, I'll try that once again. I do not use any synths or other external devices, btw. Only the BCR as controller.
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:19 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Coerce View Post
Does anyone know if it's possible to chain multiple bcf2000's together in reaper to say build 32 motorized faders that reaper will feedback too and control from the screen as well?
According to the BCF docs, you should be able to do it. There is info in the manual about chaining them. Haven't actually done it myself, as I only have one.

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Old 09-03-2008, 08:21 AM   #39
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the arthunkins preset mainly uses the top row of encoders (th push encoders). of course, you can copy the first group to the non-push encoders to have volume faders duplicated so they will available e.g. when panning.
As I said before (and see now again): the led lights do not work in the mackie mode and with the bcr2mcu syx.
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:00 PM   #40
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this is really weird, because on mine they definitely do. are you sure all went well when transferring the syx? did you use midi ox? you might need to lower the transfer rate...

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