Old 08-31-2012, 09:10 AM   #1
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Default [Blog, diary] Building a small studio

Happy autumn everyone!
(or spring if you happen to live down under )

As I told you before the summer, we had to move house.
So we did, and I'm about to build myself a new studio.

You can read about it in my blog here:
http://geir-music.blogspot.no/2012/0...-starting.html

Please feel free to comment, ask and give advises.

Table of Content will be found here:
http://geir-music.blogspot.no/2012/0...e-and-toc.html
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:02 AM   #2
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New post with basic plan
http://geir-music.blogspot.no/2012/0...rt-2-plan.html
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:29 AM   #3
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Hi Geir,

Are the walls already covered or finished on the inside with insulation in between or not? Or are the studs exposed on the inside.

Quote:
Floor: The floor is one part concrete fundament, another part studs (2x4") on concrete poles with hardwood on top.
Are the floors basically 2x4s sitting on a cement foundation on the outside with cement shims in between?

I might have a few suggestions but it depends on how practical you want to or have to be and what kind of tools you have at your disposal.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:00 PM   #4
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Hi Geir, I had a little time so thought I'd put together a couple of my ideas.

Quote:
Are the walls already covered or finished on the inside with insulation in between or not? Or are the studs exposed on the inside?
The reason I asked this is that a simple and not so expensive way to do this is to add a wall on the inside. You could just add another complete 2x4 wall or you can slightly extend the walls and still have them separate walls, which saves a little space. Basically you can add anywhere from 3/4" to 2" to the upper and lower plates and then stagger the inside 2/4 studs with the outside 2/4 studs. It would look something like this.



Quote:
Are the floors basically 2x4s sitting on a cement foundation on the outside with cement shims in between?
The reason I ask this is that this could be your biggest problem if you record a trio with drums like you suggest. If what you have are joists (regardless of whether they are 2/4s or 2/12s) the floor is going to transmit to the microphones through the mic stands. This is a huge problem and I doubt you have any practical way of dealing with it. I've been there and it's not easy short of tearing out and starting over (I did that too).

A less expensive way to overcome this is using Shock Mounts on the Mics. They can be rather expensive if you buy them but you can make your own for much less and they can be much more effective. It just takes a little imagination.

I made more that a dozen shock mounts that work pretty well. What I used was:

> Old 1/4" tape hubs from 10" bulk 1/4" tape.
> Small piece of 1/2" plywood.
> Rubber Hair bands that women use in their hair.
> 2 small bolts to fasten the tape hubs to the plywood.
> Short sections of Broom Handles that slip into mic clips.



These are just a couple of ideas.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:31 AM   #5
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Thanks Tod!
Note that I'll supply more information in later posts.
See: http://geir-music.blogspot.no/2012/0...e-and-toc.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Geir,

Are the walls already covered or finished on the inside with insulation in between or not? Or are the studs exposed on the inside.
The studs are basically exposed (well it's a wood-panel there now, but I'll remove those)

Quote:
Are the floors basically 2x4s sitting on a cement foundation on the outside with cement shims in between?

I might have a few suggestions but it depends on how practical you want to or have to be and what kind of tools you have at your disposal.
What are shims? Sorry, my English building-vocabulary is not the best
I'll try to explain what is, and my plan better in post 3
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post

Yes, this is basically how I plan to do it.

Shock mounts: Yes, I usually always use a shock-mounths.
However, I'll add a layer of floor-insulation, wood-plates and carpet ..I think
The floor has two different foundations.. one concrete-slab, one piles with 2x4".

I'm waiting for a camera to arrive, so I can take some more photos.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:38 AM   #7
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Hi Geir,

I made more that a dozen shock mounts that work pretty well.


)
Cool!
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:08 AM   #8
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I did a similar thing with broken SHure mic clips and lengths of 40mm plastic drain pipe in the late nineties. Very effective but shockmounts are so cheap now it is almost not worth bothering, is it?

Bought two SDC sized ones, all metal, for under three UK pounds via ebay recently.
Chinese needless to say.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:44 AM   #9
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Chinese needless to say.
I hardly think that makes any difference!
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:26 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
I did a similar thing with broken SHure mic clips and lengths of 40mm plastic drain pipe in the late nineties. Very effective but shockmounts are so cheap now it is almost not worth bothering, is it?
It really depends on how effective they are. Most good shock mounts come with what's commonly called the spider design.

A good test is to mount the mic in the shock mount on a mic stand. Then grasp the mic between your thumb/finger and stomp on the floor. If you feel any vibration at all it will likely get picked up with the mic.

My first exposure to this was back in the early 70s while recording a band on a wood floor much like what Geir is talking about. The drums sounded so dull and no matter how much I adjusted the mics it didn't help, especially with the kik. Finally after a couple of days I decided it was the floor so I took some special elastic rubber I used for tying fishing flies and suspended the kik drum mic with that. Whoa what a huge difference. I ended up suspending nearly all the drum mics like that and it totally cleaned up the sound, almost like being on a good cement floor.
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Old 09-16-2012, 12:59 AM   #11
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I hardly think
Apparently you didn't. I mentioned they are Chinese because of the COST.
Pure and simple. In my opinion, this is of some relevance to anyone making buying decisions.
Wind your neck in, sunshine.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:21 AM   #12
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Wind your neck in, sunshine.
No need to be rude and combatitive. It was a joke. "Needless to say"?
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:05 AM   #13
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No need to be rude and combatitive. It was a joke. "Needless to say"?
Caught out by the internet as usual. You didn't come across at all jokey.
Came across as rude and combative.
There ya go.
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Old 09-16-2012, 05:26 AM   #14
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Apologies, I hate using smilies. Sometimes they're needed...

I'm new here.

Thread derailment over!
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Old 09-16-2012, 08:07 AM   #15
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Apologies, I hate using smilies. Sometimes they're needed...

I'm new here.

Thread derailment over!
Cool - suspected it was that, or you are a non-native english speaker, which sometimes trips people up.

And bear in mind for future reference that I am the Official Grumpy Old Bastard on here.
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:35 AM   #16
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Duly noted.
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Old 09-19-2012, 08:36 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Hi Geir, I see your doing some real research, that's good.

I was wondering what you plan for the attic? Are you going to open it up or will you have an attic floor?

The reason I ask is there may be a way to turn your attic, or parts of it, into a good bass trap. That was somewhat fashionable back in the 70s and 80s when I built my last control room.

What I did was have about a 2-1/2 foot wide opening into the attic spanning the 20 foot width of the room near the back of the room. In that section of the attic I covered the inside of the roof with R19 6" insulation and then hung bats of insulation through out. Makes for a great bass trap.

I don't know, they might not be doing that anymore but it's something to consider.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Geir, I see your doing some real research, that's good.

I was wondering what you plan for the attic? Are you going to open it up or will you have an attic floor?

The reason I ask is there may be a way to turn your attic, or parts of it, into a good bass trap. That was somewhat fashionable back in the 70s and 80s when I built my last control room.

What I did was have about a 2-1/2 foot wide opening into the attic spanning the 20 foot width of the room near the back of the room. In that section of the attic I covered the inside of the roof with R19 6" insulation and then hung bats of insulation through out. Makes for a great bass trap.

I don't know, they might not be doing that anymore but it's something to consider.
Yes, doing a lot of research

My basic idea is to open up the attic, see post 2 for basic shape. I need some roof space for over-laying studs, keeping the structure strong. But, yes, I was thinking about how to maximize absorption and sense of space regarding the ceiling. I could sort of lower the roof with absorption panels.

I'll come back with some structural issues in post 6.
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Old 09-19-2012, 11:45 AM   #19
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Building a small studio - Part 3: Floor, walls and roof
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Old 09-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #20
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Any way you could kind of indicate where the current cement floor is in relation to the rest?
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:33 PM   #21
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Hi Geir, here's a little idea about putting trusses on your 4x4s in the attic.



Heh heh, I had a little time on my hands.
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Old 09-24-2012, 11:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Geir, here's a little idea about putting trusses on your 4x4s in the attic.



Heh heh, I had a little time on my hands.
Well, isn't that something to consider Thanks a lot!
I was planning something similar for the inner roof-structure, but as you've understood the main roof has these horizontal studs (or what they are called at 2,12m hight, giving me some possible literally headache.
I need to consult an engineer about weight and force, but it should be ok I think.
Then, How should I do my inner roof-structure?

Thanks again!
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:36 AM   #23
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Tod:
I started a thread about the roof idea, and some questions, here:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=1&t=17827
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:12 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Sun View Post
Tod:
I started a thread about the roof idea, and some questions, here:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=1&t=17827
Heh heh, I nearly fell off my chair. and I'm glad I had some time on my hands.

Quote:
I was planning something similar for the inner roof-structure, but as you've understood the main roof has these horizontal studs (or what they are called at 2,12m hight, giving me some possible literally headache.
Actually they're called rafters and trussing them up like that will beef the roof up quite a bit.

Quote:
I need to consult an engineer about weight and force, but it should be ok I think.
That's probably a good idea, a lot depends on how much snow you get. It appears the roof has about a 45 degree angle and I think you said has metal so the snow should fall off pretty easily.

Quote:
Then, How should I do my inner roof-structure?
That depends on what you hang on it, if you use sheetrock I don't think you'll want any more that 24-inch centers.

Just so that you have a better idea of some of the terminology:

>Roof rafters
>Wall studs
>Ceiling and/or floor joists

Structure of a truss:

>Roof rafters
>Ceiling joists
>Support chords (Usually 2x4s, these are the supports between the rafters and joists)
>Gussets (Metal or plywood plates that hold it all together)

**Plywood gussets like in the little picture I made are glued & screwed.
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Old 09-26-2012, 10:57 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Heh heh, I nearly fell off my chair. and I'm glad I had some time on my hands.

Quote:
It appears the roof has about a 45 degree angle and I think you said has metal so the snow should fall off pretty easily.
Well, a little less than 45 degrees, but, yes, metal roof is good for getting the snow off

Quote:

Just so that you have a better idea of some of the terminology:

>Roof rafters
>Wall studs
>Ceiling and/or floor joists

Structure of a truss:

>Roof rafters
>Ceiling joists
>Support chords (Usually 2x4s, these are the supports between the rafters and joists)
>Gussets (Metal or plywood plates that hold it all together)

**Plywood gussets like in the little picture I made are glued & screwed.
Thanks a lot!
(Found some construction manuals in english with illustrations yesterday that will help me as well )
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:15 PM   #26
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Hi Geir,

Just wondering how you're coming along with all this. Have you managed to make any definitive decisions yet?
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Old 09-30-2012, 11:43 PM   #27
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Thanks Tod!
I like my new studio ready as fast as possible, but I'm not rushing. I need to do things right. That means having the plans mature, and asking for guidance.
Floor, walls, construction, size.. so many aspects

Regarding the roof, I think you've guided me in a good direction. Now I need to make structural drawing of the inner and outer roof, with the acoustic ceiling.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:48 AM   #28
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Quote:
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Hi Geir, here's a little idea about putting trusses on your 4x4s in the attic.



Heh heh, I had a little time on my hands.

Excellent graphics!!
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Old 10-02-2012, 09:45 AM   #29
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Regarding the roof, I think you've guided me in a good direction. Now I need to make structural drawing of the inner and outer roof, with the acoustic ceiling.
Yes, that part could be a little tricky. If you take out the attic floor you will probably still need a couple of stringers tieing the outer walls together.

Depending on how you tie your inner wall to your outer wall you might be able to set the inner roof rafters right on the inner wall top plates.

I might have a little time today or tomorrow to sketch what I'm thinking together. At this point I'm assuming the main roof rafters are overhanging the top plates of the outer walls.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:34 AM   #30
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On the walls you can utilize the extra space behind there for bookshelves etc. I put 2 3' cabinet doors up with file cabinets behind them. Trim it out with door molding and it looks like a true built-in. I even had an area big enough to put guitar cases and other storage. Just an idea that worked for me.
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:08 AM   #31
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On the walls you can utilize the extra space behind there for bookshelves etc. I put 2 3' cabinet doors up with file cabinets behind them. Trim it out with door molding and it looks like a true built-in. I even had an area big enough to put guitar cases and other storage. Just an idea that worked for me.
Yes, maybe, depends on how I do things. Thanks!
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Old 10-03-2012, 02:43 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Yes, that part could be a little tricky. If you take out the attic floor you will probably still need a couple of stringers tieing the outer walls together.

Depending on how you tie your inner wall to your outer wall you might be able to set the inner roof rafters right on the inner wall top plates.

I might have a little time today or tomorrow to sketch what I'm thinking together. At this point I'm assuming the main roof rafters are overhanging the top plates of the outer walls.
Cool
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Old 10-03-2012, 12:44 PM   #33
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Hi Geir, here are a few thoughts and ideas.

You have several options on how you can do this. Some offer better isolation but are probably harder to construct. At some point you may be better off to compromise a little to make it easier to put together depending on how crucial these compromises might be. At any rate I put 3 sketches to together to give you something to think about.

Sketch-1: This shows the inside rafters sitting mainly on the outside wall plates. It's basically how it falls if you keep a short distance between the inside and outside rafters and gives you the most inside room which may or may not be important. Sketch-1 also shows the stringers fastened to the outside 4x4 rafters.



Sketch-2: This shows the butts of the inside rafters lineing up and sitting on the top plate of the inside wall. This will take away a little from the inside dimensions but will probably offer the best isolation.



Sketch-3: This shows the easiest way of putting it all together but will have a lesser isolation.



Regarding the Stringers, you might want to consider putting them on every 4x4 outside rafter. Based on your pictures it appears the 4x4 rafters are at least 4 feet apart. What I'm thinking is if you fasten them to each side of the 4x4 rafters you could dress them up and make them look like beams.

Below is a RAR file that has all 3 sketches in it.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/63198126/00%...01%2C2%2C3.rar
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Old 10-04-2012, 01:26 AM   #34
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Thanks a lot Tod!
That's really some nice drawings

Here's what I had in mind (similar to your ideas):
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:07 AM   #35
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Roof-structure:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/vi...hp?f=2&t=17848
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Old 10-04-2012, 02:51 AM   #36
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Just lookin' over your shoulder

I like your roof idea ... it keeps the 'room within a room' concept.

One thing ...

You diagram a 1cm 'spacing' between the outer walls to the inner walls.

You definitely want to have some space between them, filling each 2x4 bay with R19 insulation [both inner and outer walls].

This, in and of itself, gives you [nearly] an 8" wall.

If you can ... the 'spacing' between the 2 walls is a GOOD thing If you can, I would consider, at least, a 1 to 2 inch spacing between the two 'structures'. The additional isolation is very well worth it ... if you can afford the extra gap. This is what I was recommended when building my mastering control room. [definitely let Stuart see your plan].

BTW ... at the 'other' forum ...

It might be better to put all your postings under a single thread [build diary]. This way, we all get continuity to your build posts. Plus you'll have a single thread that documents your entire build. Much easier to follow.

Sincerely.
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Old 10-04-2012, 12:06 PM   #37
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Hi Geir,

I've been looking this over and it appears your material has much different dimensions than we have here in the states. For example, sheetrock, plywood, and sheeting in general come in 4x8 foot sheets. What are the demensions that you get your material?

Quote:
Outer old rafters: c/c 140cm, with double 1,5x4" joists at 140cm, and one more between.

The width of the room is approx 3,10m
So the outer 4x4 rafters are 140cm (55.1181 inches / 4.59318 feet) from center to center, is that right?

If the room is approx 3,10m that means there is only 1, at most 2 4x4 rafters within your room, is that right?

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Recommendations for getting the roof as high as possible while making the structure strong enough?

How risky is it removing those old joists, replacing them with higher/smaller ones?
I don't think that would be a good idea because it's fairly important for the joists to sit on the outside wall.

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I could make new outer rafters in between so it would be c/c 70cm.
That might not be a bad idea and it would also improve the symmetry of the room.
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Old 10-04-2012, 04:25 PM   #38
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Hi Geir,

Here is an optional way to put together your inside rafters and joist.



This is a very poor 3D image, I'm doing this with Paint so it's a little difficult. Anyway it should give you the idea, you'll want to stagger your inside studs and rafters with the outside ones.



As far as your joist connected to the outside rafters go (I call them stringers because they will no longer be ceiling or floor joist), they are baring the weight of the roof so that the weight goes straight down. If you take them out or move them up then some other construction will have to be done in order to compensate. Unless of course the 4x4s have heels cut into them. Still I think leaving them where they are and making false beams out of them would look okay and not have a negative impact on the acoustics.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:22 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
Just lookin' over your shoulder

I like your roof idea ... it keeps the 'room within a room' concept.
Thanks

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You diagram a 1cm 'spacing' between the outer walls to the inner walls.

You definitely want to have some space between them, filling each 2x4 bay with R19 insulation [both inner and outer walls].

This, in and of itself, gives you [nearly] an 8" wall.

If you can ... the 'spacing' between the 2 walls is a GOOD thing If you can, I would consider, at least, a 1 to 2 inch spacing between the two 'structures'. The additional isolation is very well worth it ... if you can afford the extra gap. This is what I was recommended when building my mastering control room. [definitely let Stuart see your plan].
Yes, I guess larger gap is better, but that goes for room-space as well I'll check into it.
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It might be better to put all your postings under a single thread [build diary]. This way, we all get continuity to your build posts. Plus you'll have a single thread that documents your entire build. Much easier to follow.

Sincerely.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:35 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Hi Geir,

Here is an optional way to put together your inside rafters and joist.



This is a very poor 3D image, I'm doing this with Paint so it's a little difficult. Anyway it should give you the idea, you'll want to stagger your inside studs and rafters with the outside ones.
Thanks a lot for your help Tod!
Yes, it's an option. I'll ask the pros if they think it's better.

Quote:

As far as your joist connected to the outside rafters go (I call them stringers because they will no longer be ceiling or floor joist), they are baring the weight of the roof so that the weight goes straight down. If you take them out or move them up then some other construction will have to be done in order to compensate. Unless of course the 4x4s have heels cut into them. Still I think leaving them where they are and making false beams out of them would look okay and not have a negative impact on the acoustics.
Yes, my first plan was keeping the stringers. But getting them out of the way would solve a lot of problems. But then, are the new stringers good enough for the roof.. ?
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