Old 02-14-2010, 07:40 PM   #1
bugg
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Default Looking for best low-latency interface for guitar

Okay, I know there are a million interface threads, but haven't found the exact answer I'm looking for, so here goes.

I'm looking for an audio interface for guitar with the LOWEST LATENCY possible.
I use Guitar Rig/Amplitube/etc and I want to be able to monitor through the plugins without the 'slap-delay' feel from interface latency.

I don't really care how many inputs it has, and interface type isn't a concern (usb/firewire/pci), I'm willing to adapt to get where I want to be.

What DOES matter is:

Noise floor - I wanna be able to use high-gain plugins
No need for preamp - I'd really like to plug in guitar/bass direct
Most importantly, LATENCY - I'd love for it to PREDICT my next move. =P

I have seen so many threads debating whether or not 10ms is audible, maybe, maybe not, but I can FEEL it. Tremolo picking just feels terrible through most interfaces I've tried.

The closest I've ever come to my idea of 'right' is an M-Audio Delta 1010LT, the latency was near-non-existent, but when I used high-gain presets in Guitar Rig my output was 99% garbage. (Internal PC noise made its way into my signal)

I'm considering a Rig Kontrol 3 interface, since the expression pedal would be nice, but I don't want to waste MORE money on something I might not be happy with. I previously owned a Rig Kontrol a few years back, noise was NOT an issue with it, but I was new to PC recording at the time and can't recall how the LATENCY was.

Any advice?

Last edited by bugg; 02-14-2010 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:28 AM   #2
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You might want to consider the Line 6 studio stuff because of its "tone direct" thing. Because of this it doesn't matter how high your buffer settings, you get very low latency monitoring through the pod farm amp sims.

While monitoring the amp sim you can also record the clean DI signal from your guitar or the amp sim or both. So it it worth looking at even if you intended to re-amp with GR or whatever later.
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:43 AM   #3
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I had an esi Juli@ with 2ms pci - that was nice

Firepods - about 8 seconds or less

edirol ua-25ex pretty neat latency

firebox - great preamps and low firewire latency

m-audio fast track ultra - some latency issues at 96000 with VST's otherwise solid

Rig Kontrol - some crashing issues.

The main difference for me is the difference between 44100 and 96000 - really changes your idea of great sound but also has latency baggage.

I would be wanting input from users with 96000 recording and low latency - probably a firewire or pcie card.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:12 AM   #4
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RME cards are renound for there well written and therefore low latency ASIO drivers.

Don't go firewire or USB, they will stil have the low buffer settings, but most if not all have a safety buffer added so the actual latency is higher by a couple of ms. Get yourself an old RME HDSP PCI card there's quite a few around second hand now as all the new Mac's are PCIe only so they're having to upgrade to the PCie versions.The 'old'PCI versions are exactly the same quality wise so us PC users can carry on using them.

make sure it's the HDSP version though as the original ones don't have x64 drivers.

Also the rest of your system will dictate how well it will run at low latency.The new i7/i5 chips are currently the best as they have on cpu memory controllers so no FSB, which in the real world gives amazing low latency performance.


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Old 02-15-2010, 07:02 AM   #5
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I just got rid of my Line6 X3 Pro actually. The "tone direct" function was nice, but I had a couple issues... The thing just worked horrible with Win7, and I know Line6 is busy at work on this, but I finally grew impatient after a full year of waiting. (BSOD randomly while recording just scared the hell out of me)

Also I don't mind re-amping when needed, but what I noticed was a lot of the little amp 'nuances' didn't carry over when re-amping since the two amps might have totally different characteristics. This might be a product of my method of recording (and imagination), and not an actual flaw, since there are tons of people doing it successfully.

As for the PCI cards, I'm really starting to lean in that direction, although I'm terrified of PCI cards without breakout boxes. My Delta 1010LT had preamps on the card, everything was fine until I turned on a high-gain plugin, then I could literally hear my hard drive writing in my recordings.

I've read alot of hype about the RME stuff, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to shell out that much cash yet, but I haven't ruled them out for sure.

If folks are having crashing issues with Rig Kontrol then I'm sure I will too, if something bad can happen it WILL happen to me, so maybe I'll ease away from that idea for now. The only thing it had going for it is the expression pedal (I'll just get a Crybaby) and the fact that it was USB powered. (Terrible reason to choose it, I know)

I've been eyeballing an Echo Gina 3G lately, I've heard nothing but good things about them.

I'm going to give this some serious consideration, I've been fiddling with my hardware/software so much that I've done no actual recording. I'm ready to get something solid that I can sit down and actually have fun with.

Ironically the last time I had 'fun' recording was before I understood any of this technology and just plugged my guitar straight into the Mic-In on my onboard soundcard. Of course my recordings sounded horrid, but at the time I didn't know any better so it was all about the music.

I appreciate all the comments and will look closely at each recommendation and will HOPEFULLY come to a decision I can live with.
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Old 02-16-2010, 02:48 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bugg View Post
My Delta 1010LT had preamps on the card, everything was fine until I turned on a high-gain plugin, then I could literally hear my hard drive writing in my recordings.
If you mean microphone preamps, only inputs 1 and 2 have them, and they can be physically switched off.
I had no problems with 1010LT, and latency was excellent - about 5 to 7 ms even when working with CPU intensive projects. I still regret selling it... (to get TonePort).
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:50 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by jax View Post
If you mean microphone preamps, only inputs 1 and 2 have them, and they can be physically switched off.
I had no problems with 1010LT, and latency was excellent - about 5 to 7 ms even when working with CPU intensive projects. I still regret selling it... (to get TonePort).
Ya know, this really concerns me. I bought my 1010LT open-box, it was obviously used and returned.... I wonder if the thing was defective.
BTW - Love the Skeletor. =P
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Old 02-16-2010, 07:02 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bugg View Post
I wonder if the thing was defective.
Maybe. Mine had MIDI interface broken, but "audio section" was excellent. I'm thinking about buying 1010LT second hand on internet auction - it was so great for my needs.
Of course 1010 would probably be even better, but it's too expensive for me.


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BTW - Love the Skeletor. =P
Oh yeah! :-)
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:24 PM   #9
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If you mean microphone preamps, only inputs 1 and 2 have them, and they can be physically switched off.
I had no problems with 1010LT, and latency was excellent - about 5 to 7 ms even when working with CPU intensive projects. I still regret selling it... (to get TonePort).
same here. i think i got around 6ms total roundtrip latency on mine. i tried the preamps once, but what good are they with no gain control?. using external preamps (a small mixer is a good fit) it's a cool card to have, assuming it doesn't need to be portable.
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Old 02-16-2010, 06:57 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by bugg View Post
I just got rid of my Line6 X3 Pro actually. The "tone direct" function was nice, but I had a couple issues... The thing just worked horrible with Win7, and I know Line6 is busy at work on this, but I finally grew impatient after a full year of waiting. (BSOD randomly while recording just scared the hell out of me)
They just fixed the driver for the most part (god they are slow w/ fix rollouts). I still see some issues with POD Farm but the unit itself seems to have stopped crashing as a sound card in Win7 unless you perform a particular (unknown) set of operations in Pod Farm when loaded in Reaper on my system. Otherwise, the new Win7 Beta driver appears to be much better.

Quote:
I've read alot of hype about the RME stuff, but I'm not sure if I'm ready to shell out that much cash yet, but I haven't ruled them out for sure.
They (RME) make quality stuff. In comparison its several notches above the POD X3 and the X3 is fine (I have both). Its a long term purchase but the quality is there for the price. Drivers are extremely stable, never had a single crash so far. ymmv.

Karbo
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:13 PM   #11
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They just fixed the driver for the most part (god they are slow w/ fix rollouts).
I get the impression that Line6 lost all their tech talent. No new products plus really slow fixes for everything -- I'm still waiting on the broken 11/12 channel on the UX8 :P . But ToneDirect is pretty sweet, I must say -- works great on DuX's WINXPAO distro, feels like a real amp.

...er, well, as close as Line6 emus get at least
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:08 AM   #12
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If it is just for guitar...I HIGHLY recommend the stealth pedal. Its amazing.
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Obitheincredible View Post
If it is just for guitar...I HIGHLY recommend the stealth pedal. Its amazing.
This thing looks great....but what about latency? Can you get a great tone and not experience any? I worry about that......

Like the OP, I too would love to find something that you can just plug in and it sounds great with zero latency.....right now I mic my amp, but it's just not an option 99% of the time.....wife and kid....nuff said.

I would love to just plug in and record a solid tube like tone....again, with no latency.

I'll be watching this thread with interest, and perhaps get the answer......

I said latency a lot huh it's a bit of a focus.....

Ian
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:05 PM   #14
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Is there some reason why you're not simply looking for a good interface, period? I.e., is there any reason why something like an RME or MOTU box with a hi-Z input is less desirable than a guitar-specific box?

One of the things about the Delta 1010 that's different than almost any of the guitar-specific interface boxes is that it's PCI, while most of the guitar boxes are USB. USB interfaces are intrinsically somewhat dependent upon the host machine for latency. Firewire is technically not as fast as max USB 2.0 speeds, if I understand correctly, but is more reliable and more fixed to hardware, so to speak. But I don't think there are any guitar-specific firewire boxes. And PCI is obviously fastest, but has its own problems, not the least of which is simply a shortage of good PCI cards. I.e., I'm not sure what the difference is between "low latency interface" and "low-latency interface for guitar", if there is one.

Bear in mind that nominal latency is different from actual round-trip latency, which is what matters. You say you can "feel" 10ms latency, without saying how you know it, or where you got that number from. A lot of boxes that promise "10ms latency" actually mean 10ms hardware latency IN EACH DIRECTION, PLUS SOFTWARE/DRIVER/COMPUTER latency.

The interface has no control over the internal latency of the computer. Total round-trip latency, from when you pluck the string to when you hear the effected note sound in your headphones, is something like: [Hardware input latency] + [driver latency] + [computer latency] + [software (REAPER) latency] + [hardware output latency].

So if your hardware claims 10ms "latency", that might actually mean 10ms in, plus 10ms out, plus whatever latency you have set internally in REAPER, plus whatever "hidden" or "buffer" latency is set in the hardware driver (sometimes this is adjustable, sometimes not). The point is, you might set your interface's control panel to, say, 2ms latency, and your actual round-trip latency might be something more like 11 or 15 ms. And an interface nominally set to 10ms latency might actually offer an achieved round-trip latency of something like 28 or 35 ms or more. You need something like the CEtrance (free) latency tester to determine actual round-trip latency in your system.

Most of the "debates" about whether 10ms is "audible" are between people who understand this distinction and people who do not.

If what you really need is a dedicated guitar interface that allows for effected guitar recording with extremely low latency, you might look into the line 6 interfaces, or the digidesign eleven, which host the guitar effects internally to the box, while allowing for straight-through recording of either the effected or unaffected signal. Now, even a hardware guitar effects box has its own latency, since it still has to convert to digital, process the audio, and then re-convert back to analog before you hear it, but if, say, a POD has low enough latency for you then either of these should be fine.

OTOH, if all you want is a low-latency interface, then RME is a very good bet, as is MOTU. But both of those, like any computer interface (even the Delta 1010) are hard-pressed to deliver much better than 10ms round-trip (although I frankly suspect that even a hardware POD or digital amp or effects pedal is probably 6~8ms round-trip).

If you truly need zero-latency recording, the best way is still to use all-analog processing, which happens at the speed of light.
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:26 PM   #15
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This thing looks great....but what about latency? Can you get a great tone and not experience any? I worry about that......

Like the OP, I too would love to find something that you can just plug in and it sounds great with zero latency.....right now I mic my amp, but it's just not an option 99% of the time.....wife and kid....nuff said.

I would love to just plug in and record a solid tube like tone....again, with no latency.

I'll be watching this thread with interest, and perhaps get the answer......

I said latency a lot huh it's a bit of a focus.....

Ian
Yeah I have used it live and never even worried about latency.
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:27 AM   #16
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amp sims suck - all of them. i know they're convenient, but so is mcdonalds.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:39 AM   #17
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...(although I frankly suspect that even a hardware POD or digital amp or effects pedal is probably 6~8ms round-trip)...
I did a measurement a while ago which indicates that my old POD had a latency of about 3ms. When I did a similar measurement on my Pod X3, it was about 2ms. Obviously that's the latency through the device itself and not via the computer. My Toneport UX1 gave a result of 11ms (through the device itself), but it was being driven by an old (fairly low spec) laptop, which might have influenced the result.

See post #6 on the thread below

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...hlight=latency

Pete

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Old 03-02-2010, 08:05 AM   #18
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amp sims suck - all of them. i know they're convenient, but so is mcdonalds.
Why do I know that I will buy one and then come to the same conclusion I just won't get the tone I get from my 62 LP JR and SMF 15 watter tube amp, and it'll bug me. I've tried the POD stuff, and it never satisfies.....

I guess the message here is just that there's no way around latency (and I just can't stand latency...makes the process useless really)....
and no real way to get a smoking tone from a sub $500 device.....when I think about it, I'm trying to match a $2,000 amp with a little $300 box that's loaded with features....I should know better.

I'll start my search for a good mic and a good interface, in that order.....I have an all in one for now (Zoom H4N).

Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread......

Ian
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:31 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
.

Don't go firewire or USB, they will stil have the low buffer settings, but most if not all have a safety buffer added so the actual latency is higher by a couple of ms.
MOTU and RME firewire devices do not have any extra hidden buffers. AFAIK they are the only exceptions.

My MOTU 8pre is awesome in this respect - no troubles at all recording/playing live thru Guitar Rig, etc. Or recording vocals thru fx for that matter.
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Old 03-02-2010, 06:57 PM   #20
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to test the true roundtrip latency of an interface, grab centrance ltu, connect one of your line inputs to one of your line outputs, open centrance, set the sensitivity, and run centrance ltu a few times. pipelineaudio has a thread here for reporting interface true latency: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...hlight=latency adding your info to that thread would be helpful for other people shopping for interfaces.

you might notice that i entered info for the presonus firebox in there. the 2 ms latency setting actually produced about 14 ms true roundtrip latency.
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:06 PM   #21
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Okay, I know there are a million interface threads, but haven't found the exact answer I'm looking for, so here goes.

I'm looking for an audio interface for guitar with the LOWEST LATENCY possible.
I use Guitar Rig/Amplitube/etc and I want to be able to monitor through the plugins without the 'slap-delay' feel from interface latency.

The closest I've ever come to my idea of 'right' is an M-Audio Delta 1010LT, the latency was near-non-existent, but when I used high-gain presets in Guitar Rig my output was 99% garbage. (Internal PC noise made its way into my signal)

Any advice?
In my experience it doesn't get any better than the 1010lt. There is really no detectable latency (5ms or so) with Amplitube 2, Guitar Rig 4, and Revalver 3. I'm going into an Art active DI, into a mixer (not necessary), into the 1010lt.

I'm sure there are other interfaces that may be as good, but they can't be any better sound wise or latency wise.

What type of CPU do you have?
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Old 03-02-2010, 07:20 PM   #22
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Just measured my round trip latency at 48 samples/buffer. I'm hitting 6ms tops. The way I performed the test it is probably actually 3ms which is way too short to feel or hear as far as playing along goes.

Karbo
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:55 PM   #23
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Been a couple weeks, time to follow up. =P

First off, I didn't mean to imply that I was looking for dedicated guitar interface, only that guitar would be my primary use for it.

I understand the concept of round-trip latency, however at the time of my original post I was quite frustrated with my setup and MIGHT be guilty of some exaggeration there.

I considered both the Eleven rack and the StealhPedal very seriously actually, but didn't want to be bound in any way to ProTools, and it was my understanding that the StealthPedal expression pedal only works with AmpliTube, so I wouldn't be able to control Guitar Rig with it.
I also wanted to avoid dedicated guitar units if possible, I only considered the Rig Kontrol for its expression pedal and the fact that it was USB powered.

After reading more posts, I'm convinced my 1010LT was defective, but since it left a bad taste in my mouth (I know, I shouldnt have been gnawing on it) I stayed clear of it this time around.

After plenty of consideration I decided to give the Echo Gino 3G a shot. I've heard some great things about it, it was affordable, its PCI based, it has a nice breakout box, and I just figured 'what the hell'...

So far I am EXTREMELY impressed with this interface.
There is a single cable (similar to VGA or Serial) connecting the breakout box to the PCI card, so no clutter.

The noise level is much better, this thing is dead silent. No more internal PC noise in my recordings.

And the most important factor, latency.... There practically is none.
I can't feel any latency, period. I've trem-picked just as fast as my arm can go (far beyond 'musical' in any sense), it's just not there. It responds better than I hoped, its as quick as any hardware based multieffects unit I've ever used.

I've been using this thing through Guitar Rig 4 and AmpliTube 3, and I must say, I am blown away. This thing is all around perfect for me, I would highly recommend it.

EDIT: Here are my results from the CEntrance latency test on the Echo Gina 3G.

44100Hz - All results stable

@32s = 153 samples / 3.47 ms
@64s = 217 samples / 4.92 ms
@128s = 345 samples / 7.82 ms
@256s = 601 samples / 13.63 ms

Last edited by bugg; 03-02-2010 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 03-03-2010, 08:15 AM   #24
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Wow, that thing looks great....seems like you found the perfect unit! Congrats!

I've never even heard of it.....that's what I love about this place!!!!!

Do you have a fairly new PC?

Ian
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Old 03-03-2010, 11:57 AM   #25
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I first heard mention of the Echo stuff here on the Reaper forums, can't recall who first recommended it, but I'm surely thankful.

My PC isn't incredibly new, but it's suiting me well for now.
Pentium D 2.80ghz / 2GB Ram / Win7 (x64)

Now I just need to find a MIDI expression pedal... =P
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:22 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by bugg View Post
My PC isn't incredibly new, but it's suiting me well for now.
Pentium D 2.80ghz / 2GB Ram / Win7 (x64)
Very good to know....mine is about the same, if not a tad better......maybe my latency days will soon be over

Thanks!
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Old 03-03-2010, 02:37 PM   #27
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+1 on the Echo range. I've had an Echo Mia for 8 years or so and never failed me; solid drivers, low latency, good sound. (I use it in combination with a mixer as the MIA hasn't got any pre-amps).
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Old 03-06-2010, 09:10 AM   #28
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Quote:
If you truly need zero-latency recording, the best way is still to use all-analog processing, which happens at the speed of light.
if it was going at the speed of light, thats probably faster than the speed of the sound, meaning the latency would be measurably negative, and latency would have to be introduced via some delay otherwise such a system would truly 'predict' what the artist was making. maybe that explains the mysterious beauty of analog.
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