Old 01-20-2018, 10:14 AM   #1
pbattersby
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Default MIDI item trim control instead of item velocity control?

For a waveform in the track control display, there is a line on every item that I can drag to adjust the volume. For a MIDI item, this same line adjusts the MIDI velocity.

That line is convenient because I can select multiple items and adjust their volume/velocity simultaneously. For example. I may have 2 tracks where their volume relative to each other is good, but they are both too loud. Adjusting their volumes individually risks altering their relative volume to each other.

I'm now in a situation where my sample library does not use velocity to control MIDI volume. That's handled by the MOD wheel.

My question: Is there a way to change the item velocity control line, into a trim control line? Or, is there a way that I can select multiple independent automation items and simultaneously increase / decrease their values? I don't want pooled automation items because the automation items still need to be otherwise independent.

[EDIT] I suspect I haven't explained the issue very well. Let me try it like this:

Is there a way, I can adjust CC1 (simply raise or lower all values) in an envelope lane, in the track control view, of multiple MIDI items simultaneously while keeping the CC1 automation items, or envelope points, otherwise independent?

If I could control-click select multiple automation items and then drag their points in unison, this would solve my problem but it seems I can't do that.

[EDIT2] Adding an image

I'm looking to either simultaneously select automation items 6 and 8 in the following image, and drag them both up and down, or better still, I'd like the line indicated by the arrow to be settable to control trim instead of velocity. I can already add a volume line to the MIDI item but adjusting the volume for a MIDI item in this way, has no effect.

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Old 01-20-2018, 10:33 AM   #2
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You can put JSFX MIDI Velocity Control on the track and then add an envelope to control the "velocity add" parameter.
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:28 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by dug dog View Post
You can put JSFX MIDI Velocity Control on the track
Thanks but, velocity automation doesn't help me because velocity does not control volume in my particular MIDI library. I know I can create a trim automaton lane but the problem also remains that if I create an automation item, I can't select multiple automation items and control them simultaneously.
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Old 01-20-2018, 11:34 AM   #4
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My bad. Sorry.
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Old 01-21-2018, 02:27 AM   #5
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Wow, using the MOD wheel to control volume? Strange, to say the least.

The problem is that velocity is NOT a CC (continuous control) in MIDI, it is a note property. The data from each note has both note number and velocity (corresponding to how hard the key was hit). Otherwise you could simply use the JS: MIDI CC Mapper plugin to convert the data to Mod Wheel data.

You probably will need to put the items on separate tracks, and assign a separate midi channel to each track, then create MOD wheel control envelopes for each.

It might be worth trying the Midi Volume control (CC 7) to see if that works. But, again, the Volume controller is midi channel specific, so if you want them to have different levels you'll still need to assign them separate midi channels.

If this is a VSTi you can simply remix the audio as it comes from the synth, instead. Might be worth a try.

Good luck!
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Old 01-21-2018, 06:17 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
Wow, using the MOD wheel to control volume? Strange, to say the least.
Why? I've seen various libraries that use a slider for volume control. Why not the MOD wheel since it's not being used for anything else and it's more common to find a MOD wheel than to find sliders on a MIDI controller?

In this case, the MOD wheel controls both the volume and a dynamic cross fade between samples. Seems to me like a natural and realistic way to control the sound. No?

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Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
The problem is that velocity is NOT a CC (continuous control) in MIDI
But controlling velocity is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to control a volume (trim) envelope automation item on multiple MIDI items.

When velocity was being used to set the volume of each note, I could drag the line in the middle of a MIDI item in the track control view and reduce the velocity (volume) of all notes in that MIDI item. If I selected multiple MIDI items, I could adjust the velocity (volume) of multiple MIDI items.

Now if I want to adjust volume (more specifically the trim), I need an automation lane and preferably an automation item. That's no problem. But I'd like it if one of two things were possible. I'd like to change the line in a MIDI item from controlling the velocity, to controlling the volume (trim) of the item OR I'd like to be able to select multiple automation items and raise / lower their values together.

Maybe I should restate my issue like this, simplifying it. Is there a way, I can adjust CC1 (simply raise or lower all values) of multiple MIDI items simultaneously while keeping the CC1 automation items, or envelope points, otherwise independent?

I'm going to add the above paragraph to my original post because I don't think I originally explained what help I need, well enough yet. Hopefully the above paragraph helps.
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Old 01-21-2018, 02:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbattersby View Post
Why? I've seen various libraries that use a slider for volume control. Why not the MOD wheel since it's not being used for anything else and it's more common to find a MOD wheel than to find sliders on a MIDI controller?

In this case, the MOD wheel controls both the volume and a dynamic cross fade between samples. Seems to me like a natural and realistic way to control the sound. No?
If it works for you, use it. Who am I to judge?

Quote:

But controlling velocity is not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to control a volume (trim) envelope automation item on multiple MIDI items.

When velocity was being used to set the volume of each note, I could drag the line in the middle of a MIDI item in the track control view and reduce the velocity (volume) of all notes in that MIDI item. If I selected multiple MIDI items, I could adjust the velocity (volume) of multiple MIDI items.

Now if I want to adjust volume (more specifically the trim), I need an automation lane and preferably an automation item. That's no problem. But I'd like it if one of two things were possible. I'd like to change the line in a MIDI item from controlling the velocity, to controlling the volume (trim) of the item
Yes, that would be cool. AFAIK, it's not currently possible in Reaper.
I suspect it would have unintended consequences. A CC such as trim, volume or expression (or Mod wheel) affects ALL notes in a given midi channel. For example, you have 2 items that use midi channel 1 and play at the same time. Now you boost the level of a weak note in one of the items. It will boost notes in the other items on midi channel 1 as well, until another CC event on midi chan 1 turns it back down.

Quote:

I'd like to be able to select multiple automation items and raise / lower their values together.
This is possible. Might need a script.

Last edited by Philbo King; 01-21-2018 at 02:35 PM.
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Old 01-21-2018, 04:32 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
If it works for you, use it. Who am I to judge?
Sure, but I'm still interested in varying opinions to keep me from doing something stupid with my sample library. Recently, I've combined volume and cross fade into a single control and it seems very playable that way so far.

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A CC such as trim, volume or expression (or Mod wheel) affects ALL notes in a given midi channel. ... It will boost notes in the other items on midi channel 1 as well, until another CC event on midi chan 1 turns it back down.
I think we are talking about 2 different things. Are you talking about volume / CC events during recording? For what I'm talking about, MIDI channels would be irrelevant. My issue is all about playback and is more of a post recording mixing issue after 2 MIDI items have already been recorded.
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Old 01-22-2018, 09:55 AM   #9
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So, Mod Wheel
It seemed strange to me because all the mod controllers I've ever seen are spring loaded to return to center when released. That would be great for, like, a jog function for cursor position....

And, CC events
CC events are present when they are present. Whether in playback or record is not relevant. If you hook a keyboard to a synth and start playing,then send a single volume CC change event, that event will affect all later notes on that midi channel until a later volume CC change overwrites the prior one.

Now consider it from the synth viewpoint. Does the synth 'know' whether the midi volume CC coming in is from a live keyboardist, from a recorded midi track where the performer did a volume CC change while playing, or from a recorded midi track where you edited in a volume CC change? No, it does not.The effect is the same in all of these.

This is true for all CC messages, not just volume.

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Old 01-22-2018, 10:30 AM   #10
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Mod wheels are generally not spring loaded. I have seen ones that are....usually some combination of pitch and mod in a joystick or something but any half decent controller with separate wheels will not be sprung.

Mod Wheel volume is common for dynamic expression in Orchestral libraries or instruments but not something you'll see outside of that.

If you are using cc1 via modwheel for expression then you would use cc7 midi volume as your "trim" volume.
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Old 01-22-2018, 11:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
If you hook a keyboard to a synth and start playing,then send a single volume CC change event, that event will affect all later notes on that midi channel until a later volume CC change overwrites the prior one.
And that I think is where we are talking about different things. Am I right that you are envisioning Reaper controlling a physical synth? I'm dealing with Reaper controlling a VST. During playback, MIDI channel is not going to matter to me. Reaper plays back the notes that were already recorded on that track and sends them to the VST that has been added to that track. I don't have to care about MIDI channel at that point.

I just leave everything configured (by default) to respond to all MIDI channels which is fine because Reaper is the only thing listening to my MIDI controller. My MIDI controller is not listening to any MIDI channel.
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Old 01-22-2018, 12:26 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
So, Mod Wheel
It seemed strange to me because all the mod controllers I've ever seen are spring loaded to return to center when released.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post
Mod wheels are generally not spring loaded. I have seen ones that are....usually some combination of pitch and mod in a joystick or something
I actually have one of each. On one MIDI controller I have A MOD wheel (not spring loaded) that is easier to control than a fader, with a spring loaded pitch bend wheel beside it. On a different MIDI controller, I have a joystick. A quick google search tells me that MOD wheels are common, faders almost but not quite as common.

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Mod Wheel volume is common for dynamic expression in Orchestral libraries or instruments but not something you'll see outside of that.
An orchestral library is what I'm dealing with.

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Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post
If you are using cc1 via modwheel for expression then you would use cc7 midi volume as your "trim" volume.
So, given that I want to keep things simple where volume and cross fade between samples is directly related, I'm hoping it's not a bad idea to use the MOD wheel to control both.
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:30 PM   #13
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Sorry, my mistake. I was thinking of spring loaded pitch wheels. OOPS

My statement on CCs holds true for a VSTi as well as a physical symth.

Try this: insert a CC 7 of zero in a midi clip and hit play. As soon as it hits the CC,the VSTi will go silent, until it hits a later CC7 that turns the volume back up. If I'm wrong I'll happily admit it (See above )
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Old 01-22-2018, 04:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
Try this: insert a CC 7 of zero in a midi clip and hit play. As soon as it hits the CC,the VSTi will go silent, until it hits a later CC7 that turns the volume back up. If I'm wrong I'll happily admit it (See above )
Yes, I think you're right, and I've not been disputing how CC values work, but I've never understood how it's related to my question that's why I keep thinking we're not talking about the same thing.
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Old 01-22-2018, 06:38 PM   #15
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You asked originally if note velocity values could be changed to trim values.

There is no such thing as a trim value in the midi standard. It simply does not exist in the midi domain. So you are left with the other possible ways to affect loudness in the domain of midi. These are: Volume CC, Expression CC, or possibly some proprietary CC unique to your particular VSTi.

There is another possibility, which hasn't been brought up. And that is using audio gain envelopes on the VSTi audio returns. Might be worth considering.

I wish you luck on your quest...
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Old 01-22-2018, 07:00 PM   #16
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but you can stack automation items above each other and the current values of each get 'summed' (so you could stack one as a 'Trim automation item').

Like so (for example):


Last edited by nofish; 01-22-2018 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
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You asked originally if note velocity values could be changed to trim values.
Actually, no I didn't but I can see why you thought I did. I asked if the line in a MIDI item could control trim instead of controlling velocity. I'm not looking to convert velocity into anything.

I can draw an automation item that controls trim underneath a MIDI item. It would be convenient if I could reconfigure the line in the MIDI item that currently adjusts velocity to instead adjust trim. That way, I could simultaneously control trim the way I can currently simultaneously control velocity in multiple MIDI items. The trim would not affect the CC values.

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Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
There is no such thing as a trim value in the midi standard. It simply does not exist in the midi domain.
True, and it doesn't relate to my issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philbo King View Post
So you are left with the other possible ways to affect loudness in the domain of midi. These are: Volume CC, Expression CC, or possibly some proprietary CC unique to your particular VSTi.
I can also draw a trim or a volume envelope. That's what I want to use in a different way than I currently can.

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I wish you luck on your quest...
Thanks but I suspect, unless a new feature is added to Reaper I'm stuck. Although, there is a less convenient way to do what I want. I can open multiple items in the MIDI editor and adjust (drag up or down) the recorded CC values (CC01 in my case) of both MIDI items at the same time. I guess that will have to do.
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Old 01-22-2018, 08:37 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, but you can stack automation items above each other and the current values of each get 'summed'
What I'm looking to do involves 2 or more automation items, each on a different track being selected and adjusted at the same time but a variation of what you suggested in your image would work. I'd need to create a pooled automation item for each MIDI item I want to simultaneously control and take advantage of the stacking nature of automation items.
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Old 01-23-2018, 09:38 AM   #19
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You may try assigning EXPRESSION CC#11 to you mod wheel. CC7=Volume, Expession controls a percentage of the volume 0=0% 127=100%. Perhaps this is what you are looking for?
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Old 01-23-2018, 01:51 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1b3zman View Post
You may try assigning EXPRESSION CC#11 to you mod wheel. CC7=Volume, Expession controls a percentage of the volume 0=0% 127=100%. Perhaps this is what you are looking for?
Well, my original issue wasn't about how to use or configure CC values. We got a little off topic there. I've added an image to my initial post to better clarify my original question.
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