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Old 08-16-2019, 04:17 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adXok View Post
Music style is not the subject of this discussion.
Jazz, flamenco, mongolian gurgle... whatever.

What this thread is all about is (and it is written in its title):
music notation, music theory
(and nomenclature)

Jazz is nothing but a niche music style, as it is the case with death metal or micro-tonal music.

I believe I pointed out enough facts about the discrepancies in the so called modern (western?) music notation, nomenclature, hence - the theory as well following those elements.

So my theory is, backed up with proofs (see above), that this "system" is inconsistent to say the least.

The title says "How to revamp the ancient music notation and music theory system which is flawed?"


Who ever said it is one system ?

This is where, in my opinion, the argument doesn't stand.

Quote:
Music style is not the subject of this discussion.
Jazz, flamenco, mongolian gurgle... whatever
Only if you restrict yourself to believe there is and should be one system.

Quote:
So my theory is, backed up with proofs (see above), that this "system" is inconsistent to say the least.
Once again only if you believe there is and should be one system.

As well as Jazz and Classical, there is also the Nashville number system, and many other suitable systems.

Every play a gig ?

I've played thousands using each system , and just as importantly, no notation at all, complete reliance on ears, and all of the systems have served me well.

I understand the idea of rationalization, IMHO it simply doesn't apply here -- YMMV
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:34 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Nashville number system
i'm glad someone mentioned Nashville number system because I forgot to add it in the original top post and meant to. Although it is not a complete system, it is a shorthand for "quick & easy" chord charts as far as I know (I havent played with such a chart).

"Once again only if you believe there is and should be one system.
As well as Jazz and Classical, there is also the Nashville number system, and many other suitable systems."

so at least there is +1 person in the thread who takes the perspective that there are currently multiple systems (or sub-notations, like nashville) in use under the single "standard music system". which to me is an important distinction with many musicians saying "yeah I know theory and can read/write notation" ...well sure okay, which theory & notation.


Plus the solfege system, previously touched upon, which has two opposing (and arguing) systems to it: fixed-do used in europe and moveable-do (relative) used in the U.S. and these are incompatible, swapping systems will leave the performer (vocalist) confused, in fact, some areas (Spain) use different symbols (phonemes/syllables) for certain scale degrees which are incompatible, just look at any online discussion regarding solfege to see ("it's not Fe!!11!" or "it's not Ti!!11!1") - or whichever the case may be.
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:44 PM   #123
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Handwritten chord chart with the Nashville number system. Again note this is not a 'fully descriptive music system', it is fit to purpose similar to the minimal 'standards jazz charts'.


Therefore: what is the limitation or drawback to using numerals as the note names? The big difference here with Nashville is that they stick to the archaic base-8 system, whereas I propose base-12.



(hope the image works)
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:00 PM   #124
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so it'd be

1 8 instead of 1 5
and
6 8 instead of 4 5?

what about a 12 point star, so no numbers at all, just plot point, perhaps with concentric circles to illustrate octaves.
then for timing just add the 3rd dimension, so it's like an extruded 3d wheel of sorts
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:04 PM   #125
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Previously I mentioned the ratios of harmonics and I didnt want to post until I could look them up to make sure I had no typos, anyways the ideal tuning ratios just for discussion and also for reference regarding vocalists' natural harmonies.

Code:
U       1:1
2nd     9:8 
3rd     5:4
4th     4:3
5th     3:2
6th     5:3
7th     15:8
O       2:1
now obviously this is too much written information to look at while playing in real-time, though in terms of theory, embedding the relationships of the ratios within the notation somehow, goes a lot further than simple analogies like, "yeah man the devils tone, like, tritone, whoa, sounds evil" or whatever strange unique analogy someone feels like inventing for the supertonic, etc.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:08 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
what about a 12 point star, so no numbers at all, just plot point, perhaps with concentric circles to illustrate octaves.
similar has been done




and a better comparative reference


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Old 08-16-2019, 05:16 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
Handwritten chord chart with the Nashville number system. Again note this is not a 'fully descriptive music system', it is fit to purpose similar to the minimal 'standards jazz charts'.


Therefore: what is the limitation or drawback to using numerals as the note names? The big difference here with Nashville is that they stick to the archaic base-8 system, whereas I propose base-12.



(hope the image works)
Hmmm...

Base-12 sounds like a good idea, until you realize that the Nashville number system generally applies to extremely pentatonic tunes, ain't no flat fives or Locrian shit allowed around here

So given that we're really looking at:
1 - Release
4 - Weak tension
5 - Strong tension

99% of the time a Base-12 system is just confusing and overkill -- IMHO it is an attempt to generalize something that is best left as is.

BTW to twist things even more the Nashville number system is often notated using Roman numerals for the Chord numbers -- I - IV - V7 would be your basic Louie-Louie changes
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:19 PM   #128
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maybe someone mentioned it already:

http://globalnotation.org.uk/

kinda interesting

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Old 08-16-2019, 05:26 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Tomm View Post
maybe someone mentioned it already:

http://globalnotation.org.uk/

kinda interesting

Some pretty crazy shit, probably useful in some ivory tower environment, but if someone put that in front of me onstage, I'd kindly say "No Thanks" and turn up my ears and just use them instead of any chart
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:37 PM   #130
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Yes, very interesting, I will have to take a deeper look, it looks a bit strange at first glance.

As far as Pashkuli notation posted here goes, it is amazing that apparently it agrees with many of the points I have raised so far to fix the currently broken system, such as:

- zero as the scale degree of the unison. (not 1) which should make "scale math" easier.

- unique note names for all chromatic notes (not unique note names for only 7 notes like current A-G)

- distinctive, single-syllable phoneme for each of 11 note names (Bo, Da, Fe, ...)

- unique single-letter abbreviation for each of 11 note names, based on the "solfege phoneme" (B, D, F, ..)

- this means that the system is instantly sight-singable, unlike the current system which uses separate solfege (Do, Re, Mi,..) vs. note alphabet (A,B,C..)

- consistent scale degree numbering beyond the octave, using "re-". Unlike the current system which goes into teen digits requiring extra mental math (11th, 13th, ...)

- built-in modes by using a "clef note". That seems to be a huge potential improvement.

- elimination of sharps, flats, and differences in ascending or descending note names and solfege names.



seriously, everyone on this thread should give the prior pages a detailed look.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:45 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
in jazz it's more a guideline -- it's more based on practicality -- the baritone male ain't doin' the gig tonight, there's a chick soprano comin' in. This means all the voicings you used last night are out the window, the melody is going to be an octave or more higher tonight -- adjust accordingly

this is all the more reason to use a numeric-based system (probably with index starting at zero) for root notes, therefore, transcribing is much easier by shifting numbers (which is exactly why Nashville system is preferred by some players), in comparison to mentally transposing a series of chords like "Ebm7"

in fact, gigging jazz players today are known to use ios apps much of the time for their charts, in order to transpose to an arbitrary "surprise" vocalist's desired key, rather than doing it in their head. they rely on an app! because it is not easy to transpose current standard music notation, or at least, it's the lazy/easiest way to do it.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:54 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
this is all the more reason to use a numeric-based system (probably with index starting at zero) for root notes, therefore, transcribing is much easier by shifting numbers (which is exactly why Nashville system is preferred by some players), in comparison to mentally transposing a series of chords like "Ebm7"
Yup, I prefer the Nashville number system for that reason.

Matter of fact when using my ears I think of the chords that I hear in exactly that way -- I hear a IV minor, a IIIm7, etc., in my head as I make up the bass line.

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in fact, gigging jazz players today are known to use ios apps much of the time for their charts, in order to transpose to an arbitrary "surprise" vocalist's desired key, rather than doing it in their head. they rely on an app! because it is not easy to transpose current standard music notation, or at least, it's the lazy/easiest way to do it.
Nah, those are wanna be jazz players real jazz players don't need such things as Charlie Parker once said to guy who got up to jam "Do you know the tunes man?", meaning not only the tunes they might play but ALL the jazz tunes All in good fun
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:03 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
The title says "How to revamp the ancient music notation and music theory system which is flawed?"

Who ever said it is one system ?

This is where, in my opinion, the argument doesn't stand.

There is one overall system in the sense that :

- all of them are based on The Church's base-8 counting scheme for pitches. Show me any currently used system which uses base-12 (not counting standard chromatic scale which is not used for scales etc)

- almost all of them use letter names A,B,C,...

- all of them use nearly identical chord-naming constructions, only differing in symbol choice like triangle or "M", or sharp/flat convention, yet still otherwise using similar placeholder spots for chord alterations or mode indications

underneath this huge "The Church" umbrella system, there are specialized/niche subsystems, as mentioned:

- Nashville which uses numbers 1..8 instead of A..G and different symbols for major vs minor vs 7th ("-", ">")

- Solfege which uses "The Church's" archaic ancient abbreviations for note names (Do, Re, Mi, ..)

which by the way, the solfege phonemes is a ridiculous tradition to keep sticking with because no one ever sings that ancient latin melody-song anymore so the usefulness as a mnemonic is completely lost on today's players... and the original intent of solfege was as a mnemonic between melody and scale degree!

- The newer ABC notation, Tbon notation, and others, also use A,B,C from the umbrella system


etc etc
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:05 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Y as Charlie Parker once said to guy who got up to jam "Do you know the tunes man?", meaning not only the tunes they might play but ALL the jazz tunes
I think if Charlie Parker were on this thread he would be agreeing with me and saying that The Church notational system is outmoded and should be junked into the trash because "the new sound is here to stay"
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:06 PM   #135
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Can we tackle analog vs digital next?

😁
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:09 PM   #136
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I think if Charlie Parker were on this thread he would be agreeing with me and saying that The Church notational system is outmoded and should be junked into the trash because "the new sound is here to stay"
Agreed !
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:40 PM   #137
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maybe someone mentioned it already:

http://globalnotation.org.uk/

kinda interesting
huh! what a non-coincidence, the first paragraph describing their system vs the old ways: "Western staff notation .. being notoriously difficult to learn"

Quote:
Global notation is a way of visually representing the sounds of any kind of music.

Around the world, music gets written down in many different ways, each designed to suit its own musical tradition. But musicians and music researchers increasingly work across traditions rather than within them, and need to be able to communicate about musical sound in a common written language. Western staff notation has been made to serve that purpose, but not very satisfactorily, since it is no less tied to its own tradition than any other existing notation system, besides being notoriously difficult to learn. What if there were a notation system designed from the beginning to represent any kind of music in the world while being as easy to learn and use as possible? If that prospect interests you, read on…

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Old 08-16-2019, 06:49 PM   #138
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Priceless.


I think any "new and improved" notation systems are anything but. Current notation that we use has been around for centuries, it's one of the best standards the humankind has agreed upon. Even longer lasting than MIDI.

When something is rooted in for that long, chances of it changing with something completely different are very close to zero.

I fully agree. The current notation system has been used for decades, it works excellently if you know what you are doing.

If I prepare scores and parts, they can be performed by any trained musician anywhere in the world, and they can be read by any conductor.

But don't let that stop you from trying to reinvent the wheel.
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:10 PM   #139
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it works excellently
all the things which are missing from the notation system have not even been brought up yet (other than guitar neck voicing/position briefly mentioned) - there are nearly too many missing articulations to even start listing them. it surely does not work "excellently" especially for classical, or often even for simple pop.

https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*s...NiMF12Llg.jpeg

(hope the image works...errr not so much)

image caption :
Fig. 2. Top line with chords notated in a literal reading, as rudimentary voicings and stationary blocks. The annotations represent just some of the many considerations that the musician undertakes as a craftsman and interpreter. The most obvious of several possible counterpoint lines is highlighted, showing how chords are not just blocks of notes, but cross sections in a flow of moving voices. The question of whether this line is a harmonic counterpoint over a static bass or a bass line leading to chord substitutions is not just an either/or question. It is part of a general speculation in equally valid possibilities, any of which can come into play in an extended version of the song. The voicing of the chords requires them to be understood with a high level of abstraction, freeing them from specific forms, specific pitches and octaves or specific distributions in time. This cognitive process is a craft that takes years to master, partly because a notation with an inherent exactitude must be read loosely.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:03 PM   #140
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Tbon's chord example, 6 measures, notes in parenthesis are harmonic groups i.e. chords, listed from lowest note (bass) to highest note (soprano). The @ is an accidental indicator for the subsequent note. In case it's not clear, this is 3/4 time (three chords per measure are in the groups)


Code:

/* God Save the Queen */
/* (with jazz chords) */
T=90
(/3561)- (/3561) (/4@672)  | (/24@67) -(/6^351) (/4@672) | (/5613) (/5613) (/@6724) |
(/5613) -(/4@672) (/6^351) | (/7^4@62) (/6^351) (/@6247) | (/6^351) - - |

this is a really neat system. very fast to type. could be much faster than writing notes in sheet music software.

If reaper implements an input parser for this (note: the code says it is all python regex) then it could really be quite something. much faster than MIDI note editor.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:38 PM   #141
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That is pretty unreadable crap I must say.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:53 PM   #142
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That is pretty unreadable crap I must say.
+1'd by every PHP-basher ever, yet, you're typing a message on it.
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:08 PM   #143
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I don't give a shit about PHP
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:52 PM   #144
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"Western staff notation .. being notoriously difficult to learn"
Interesting idea but it is also very contextual. You couldn't recognize a single note on the GN (Global Notation). You still would need the staff annotations to do it correctly.
On MusicNotation.org you can find enormous collection of alternative music notations. They all require some line-based staff, though - it is in the prescribed criteria for all the notations on that website, which is pity.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:56 AM   #145
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I never thought of music as anything other than being much more simple to learn to read than reading actual words. I'm sooooo glad none of my music teachers/bandmates ever got this far out of pocket.. (pun intended)

music is so simple. I saw nothing in all of this thread, to indicate a better, faster, more universal, way to illustrate the space between the notes, and their individual musical expression.

That being said it is really interesting and was a great subject to dig through.
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:29 AM   #146
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X7qgBVnMfY
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:49 AM   #147
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I never thought of music as anything other than being much more simple to learn to read than reading actual words. I'm sooooo glad none of my music teachers/bandmates ever got this far out of pocket.. (pun intended)
Music is so simple. I saw nothing in all of this thread, to indicate a better, faster, more universal, way to illustrate the space between the notes, and their individual musical expression.
Different strokes for different folks.
it was exactly the opposite with me. When I was 14 I saw a real grand piano at the theatre hall where I used to go and practice drumming (I was deep into metal, hard rock, Steve Vai but also M. Jackson and Bjork, Sade).
I am so glad I never had to deal with teachers regarding music, how to read it, what is this chord named or that, this note or the next one. I studied it by myself - in my town's book library (Internet was very scarce in my country back then, slow and expensive also).
Can never be thankful enough to stumble upon very old books about the piano, music instruments, how were they made, ancient intonations... etc.

I tried to get a good grasp on the traditional staff (and its historic ancestors in church chants, tabulature... which came even before the time of Leonardo da Vinci), the music system Jean-Jacques Rousseau created (many people do not know that he was a decent violin player and invented his own music notation and nomenclature) and even Isaac Newton.

The most significant names for my later obsession with design are those of Theophile Dreschke, John Trotter and Paul von Janko.

If you understand and gain good knowledge about how certain things came to be, you would also realise the possibility of finding alternatives or at least point out any potential flaws in what had been established as "standard" or "conventional". Of course, back in those days the Church had enormous influence on the people and almost every aspect of their lives (Europe mainly). But there were times before that... where things were a bit different.

Nowadays, nothing has changed much in both the piano keyboard and the staff. They just look more polished. There have been alternatives and there are alternatives.





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Originally Posted by Lunar Ladder View Post
Tabulature is indispensable for fretted instruments! Who claims otherwise is too much stuck on standard notation (suitable mostly for standard piano keyboards).
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:53 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Base-12 sounds like a good idea, until you realize that the Nashville number system generally applies to extremely pentatonic tunes, ain't no flat fives or Locrian shit allowed around here
Nashville notation as far as I know allows alterations necessary for various chords. If you can represent it with roman numerals in standard notation then you should be able to represent it with numbers in nashville notation. the difference being that you add "m" instead of making the roman numeral lowercase, because obviously you cant make a number digit lowercase in font.
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Old 08-17-2019, 02:56 AM   #149
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Yes watch it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X7qgBVnMfY

Thanks @LunarLander
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:03 AM   #150
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Yes watch it
what does it have to do with this thread?

The OP said to leave staff notation as-is - so how does this video apply ? the video is talking only about staff vs tab. not theory notation.

and, did not everyone here already know the content of the video anyways?
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Old 08-17-2019, 03:59 AM   #151
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Music (language) is indeed very simple. Like every other language we start with some sounds, represented by glyphs, letters in a written format, as simple as they can be.

How many notes do we have?
in our case (european-american) we have 12

Can we recognise them individually?
erm, no... we can't... well we can recognise 7 of them by letters, but on the staff we need more overall data even to recognise any of the 12
- problem


Guys, there is a fundamental problem in modern music language. If you do not like to admit it, rejecting it won't lead to any progression. This is valid in any field of human activity!


Can we recognise their high or low position in the tonal range (a.k.a. "octaves")?
well, yeah but relatively to one of them called C - the "conventional" separator of the tonal ranges (a.k.a. "octaves")

Who said that should be the separator?
erm... the piano keyboard... maybe... but actually A is the first letter in most of the languages (european at least), but A is the most far on the left key on that keyboard, C is the separator though... we do not know...

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Old 08-17-2019, 04:13 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by superblonde.org View Post
what does it have to do with this thread?

The OP said to leave staff notation as-is - so how does this video apply ? the video is talking only about staff vs tab. not theory notation.

and, did not everyone here already know the content of the video anyways?
It's a basic reminder, of the perceptual processes in play when performing music using notation. I understand that performance is not supposed to be the concern in this thread, however under the surface that's one of the details that causes so much of the "debate": even though you set the stage in the beginning by saying you are "not talking about notation for real-time reading during a performance", you keep describing shortcomings in something that is actually very successfully used for real-time performance, and largely because of the "fuzzy" nature of how it sums up relevant information that can be absorbed by performers without actually even looking at the note glyphs for a large portion of the time (instead of the glyphs, they often tend to focus on the blank space in between).

As far as the tone and outcome of discussions like this, much of what (and how) you argue works subtly against itself, even when it really isn't an either/or situation in the first place - and you even try to say so yourself, right from the start, as you again pointed out. Indeed, when the goal is to develop a system for non-realtime use and describing a musical work in detail, leaving the real-time aspect out of it, well, that is a (really) constructive and interesting endeavor, designing a system that can be used for preserving and analyzing abstract musical information in a human readable (or even semi-human-readable) form better than something already in wide use. Maybe concentrate on bringing out that constructive vibe more.
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:56 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by adXok View Post
Like every other language we start with some sounds, represented by glyphs, letters in a written format, as simple as they can be.

How many notes do we have?
in our case (european-american) we have 12

Can we recognise them individually?
erm, no... we can't... well we can recognise 7 of them by letters, but on the staff we need more overall data even to recognise any of the 12
- problem
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Originally Posted by adXok View Post
We are talking about writing system here, not sounds.


Indeed, this connection with the actual sound of performed music is what I was referring to when you brought up letters before, hah. And yes, the "shortage" of glyphs in relation to the number of distinct sounds - be it phonemes of a spoken language or pitches in a musical practice - is a common theme in languages, if you will. There are plenty of different sounds in the English language, for example, and just by looking at an isolated glyph, in separation in the middle of a written word, doesn't reveal you the actual desired performed sound.
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:10 AM   #154
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^ represented by letters. So we discuss those letters not if the sound is from string, brass, woodwind instruments or whistling. Whether it is jazz, flamenco, gregorian chant, pop, disco or metal.

Sound and style doesn't matter, as long as they are tuned to the 12-TET, hence 12 notes.

For me it doesn't matter if I will write my sounds in Latin, Cyrillic or even mixture of those. I can do it if I want to. But that is not the point.
The thing would be, that in Latin I won't be able to represent certain sounds of my native language with a single...

SINGLE

...letter! Same applies for some sounds used in English language or Spanish. I won't be able to write them down using a single letter from Cyrillic alphabet. Well, to be honest in Spanish they used both V and B to write the same sound, but let's not go into linguistics.

The question is: Why do I have to write the note (Bb) using two symbols?! Yet the note C - using only one?!
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:20 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by adXok View Post
not if the sound is from string, brass, woodwind instruments or whistling. Whether it is jazz, flamenco, gregorian chant, pop, disco or metal
Same with phonemes, of course, no matter whether the speaker is an old man, a little girl, a speech synthesizer or a recording; no matter whether said phoneme is a part of a song, a shout or a formal lecture. There are tonal, textural etc. etc. qualities you can use to describe the sound in more detail, of course, just like you can describe the instrumental texture and articulation of a particular performed musical note.
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:42 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by adXok View Post


Tabulature is indispensable for fretted instruments! Who claims otherwise is too much stuck on standard notation (suitable mostly for standard piano keyboards).
The problem with this thread is that the "innovators" present their suppositions as proven knowledge.
I have been a professional bass player for 40 years and and bass teacher for 20.
I have never used tabs in my practicing, playing or teaching.
Neither do I know of any colleagues who use tablature.
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Old 08-17-2019, 05:54 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
That is pretty unreadable crap I must say.
Exactly!
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:00 AM   #158
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I have been a professional bass player for 40 years and and bass teacher for 20.
I have never used tabs in my practicing, playing or teaching.
Neither do I know of any colleagues who use tablature.
So how do you tell your students on which string is that note:


Oh, sorry. You've got no idea what note it is. Pity...
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:11 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by adXok View Post
So how do you tell your students on which string is that note:


Oh, sorry. You've got no idea what note it is. Pity...
Without context this means nothing.
How do you know how to pronounce the latter "a" without context?
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Old 08-17-2019, 06:27 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by coolbass View Post
Without context this means nothing.
How do you know how to pronounce the latter "a" without context?
I do not need a context. It is just a letter. Actually the first letter in English alphabet. So, would pronounce it as [ei].
I understand that it consists of a diphthong (two sounds e_i) but anyway (we are limitting ourselves here with just English... for simplicity).
It is just a letter.
How do you pronounce the letter W?
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