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Old 08-02-2009, 01:00 PM   #1
synth
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Default Cockos can have the ultimate resampling algorithm...for FREE!

The SINC resampler currently used in REAPER is a waste of CPU time - the only setting worth using is the 'extreme' preset that's *extremely* slow, producing rendered files that are of less-than-stellar quality.Using this preset for real-time playback is out of the question. People are begging for a better resampler

Now what if there's a resampling algorithm that's orders of magnitude faster than the current one and at the same time so good that it beats the best resamplers out there?

Imagine the 'perfect' resampler - something that rivals R8brain Pro / iZotope in quality and is so fast that it can be used for real-time playback as well

Sounds too good to be true? Nope,it gets even better:

Meet SoX (Sound Exchange) - a free, open source audio processing toolkit:

http://sox.sourceforge.net/SoX/Resampling

Its resampler is one of the best things ever created in the open source world

Tests at http://src.infinitewave.ca indicate that SoX is the leader in resampling quality,rivaling R8brain Pro and iZotope while being much faster,using orders of magnitude less CPU

Since SoX's code is licensed under LGPL,the resampler can be used in any commercial program,free of charge

EDIT: Some cat dude made a Foobar2000 plugin:
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/...howtopic=67373
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:06 PM   #2
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be silly not too I guess

Kind regards

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Old 08-02-2009, 01:08 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synth View Post
producing rendered files that are of average quality.
"Average"? That's bullshit. Quality is very good (although not "best"). Only render times are not cool.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
"Average"? That's bullshit. Quality is very good (although not "best"). Only render times are not cool.
Fixed (I was talking about the SINC resampler in general)
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Last edited by synth; 08-02-2009 at 01:20 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:48 PM   #5
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+1

yes please!!
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Old 08-02-2009, 04:11 PM   #6
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Hey synth,

Good point. Some almost audible shadows cast back into the mix even with the best Reaper conversions. This could up the quality.

Would be nice if there was a Windows interface with Sox or a vegetable level incorporation into Reaper so that command line challenged dimwits like me could more easily navigate.

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Old 08-03-2009, 12:31 AM   #7
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I could use better resampler.
Maybe this is suitable addition to bug/feature tracker section?
cheers
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:35 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synth View Post
Since SoX's code is licensed under LGPL,the resampler can be used in any commercial program,free of charge
Yes, but remember to meet the LGPL requirements the code needs to be implemented as a dynamically linked library and the source code of that must be released so it can be modified, and since currently the resampling of REAPER seems to be in the binary, Cockos would need to outfactor that part.

But all difficulties aside a big +1.
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:26 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synth View Post
producing rendered files that are of less-than-stellar quality.
so you can really hear the difference, can you?

I'm gonna answer that and say NO. This is unperceived sound quality deterioration, that is around -50db above the threshold of human hearing and dips well below -100db in the audible range. You aren't gonna hear this under any practical circumstance.

That being said, if it is easy enough to implement, there is no reason not to get a higher quality algorithm, so folks can have their "peace of mind".
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:42 AM   #10
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StepOne - the problem is that the better algos in REAPER are too slow. the least good algos in REAPER produce degradation that is plenty audible....
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:48 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by semiquaver View Post
StepOne - the problem is that the better algos in REAPER are too slow. the least good algos in REAPER produce degradation that is plenty audible....
You have proof of that audibility? Blind testing done?
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:24 AM   #12
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+1 for this, much needed an high quality algorithm that is also FAST
Not everyone can use offline rendering so a FAST algorithm that keeps quality is MUCH NEEDED.
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
You have proof of that audibility? Blind testing done?
Come on! Always this real life stuff. Theory is so cool. We're talking about music in the end!



;-)

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Old 08-04-2009, 04:18 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shogger View Post
Come on! Always this real life stuff. Theory is so cool. We're talking about music in the end!



;-)

Shogger
Seriously, I am wondering why Cockos should apparently urgently waste effort on adding something of which the majority of users would fail in a blind test to even hear if there is any difference...
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Old 08-04-2009, 04:42 AM   #15
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i like to think i have decent hearing, and i've had it set to 'good' quality (instead of the better quality ones) by mistake and not noticed it - at least, for a while. i did figure something was up with my session but it certainly didn't grab me, it was more like a slightly fuzzy loss of focus or something.
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Old 08-04-2009, 06:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
the least good algos in REAPER produce degradation that is plenty audible....
And these modes are provided for creative potential -- the medium quality modes sound great and are relatively quick, IMO.

We have no problem in adding support for LGPL algorithms (for example we use SoundTouch...). The main problem is that REAPER's SRC needs to be dynamic, i.e. supporting changing samplerates on the fly without big penalty.
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Old 08-04-2009, 06:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
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The main problem is that REAPER's SRC needs to be dynamic, i.e. supporting changing samplerates on the fly without big penalty.
And SoX doesn't support this (like r8brain)?
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:29 PM   #18
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I just resampled a 96kHz file to 44.1kHz. Once with "Good" and once with the "Better 192" algo. The phase cancelation test showed -80dB. I can't hear a difference.

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Old 08-05-2009, 04:20 AM   #19
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When does the SRC come into play, does it affect anything if all the files in the project are record or imported and then exported at the same sample rate.
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Old 08-05-2009, 04:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
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When does the SRC come into play, does it affect anything if all the files in the project are record or imported and then exported at the same sample rate.
no - they never get used at all unless there's a sample rate mismatch
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:10 AM   #21
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no - they never get used at all unless there's a sample rate mismatch
Seems silly that they should process on demand using up CPU resources rather than just resampling to the project sample rate when imported. Am I missing something here.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Seems silly that they should process on demand using up CPU resources rather than just resampling to the project sample rate when imported. Am I missing something here.
because the sample rate is dynamic i.e. you can do smooth ramping of playrate and stuff i think. also saves generating lots of gigantic temporary files.

pro tools pre-processes audio on import and it's slow as hell. i think i prefer reaper's way. same with time stretching - reaper is way better in that regard (non-destructive time stretch yay). you can always manually glue items to lock them to the rate if you want to do it like that.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:30 AM   #23
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dub have you so quickly forgot about sample rounding and null issues

I too would like to keep reaper as it is for sample rate stuff but need that sample rounding issue sorted !
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:41 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dub3000 View Post
because the sample rate is dynamic i.e. you can do smooth ramping of playrate and stuff i think. also saves generating lots of gigantic temporary files.

pro tools pre-processes audio on import and it's slow as hell. i think i prefer reaper's way. same with time stretching - reaper is way better in that regard (non-destructive time stretch yay). you can always manually glue items to lock them to the rate if you want to do it like that.
Makes perfect sense now. Is this how ReaTune works as well.

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Old 08-08-2009, 03:47 AM   #25
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Makes perfect sense now. Is this how ReaTune works as well.
No ReaTune uses pitch shifting algorithms such as Dirac, SoundTouch, or Elastique.
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Old 08-08-2009, 07:14 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mich View Post
Yes, but remember to meet the LGPL requirements the code needs to be implemented as a dynamically linked library and the source code of that must be released so it can be modified, and since currently the resampling of REAPER seems to be in the binary, Cockos would need to outfactor that part.

But all difficulties aside a big +1.

or improving what currently is available. but, by looking at the rmaa plot of the band transition, i'm not sure that doubling the n of points to 1024 for example will do much good. edit: can't really say i need such improvements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
"Average"? That's bullshit. Quality is very good (although not "best"). Only render times are not cool.
yes, execution times of sinc filters, which are trying to approximate the perfect lp are really really slow. in fact its more of a modern cpu limitation, over an algorithm issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
You have proof of that audibility? Blind testing done?
for a-b comparison of a single unmixed sample (a sine sweep) from two different src sources, differences would be clearly out of the audible range. however, it is arguable that in the case of a 16 tracks - 96khz mix, with 2 down sampling conversations in comparison, would produce audible differences. i cannot say for certain as i haven't done such test.

---
for free tools "r8b free" and "sox" should be considered superb and if you like to use them instead of reaper's src, do so.
however i'm not sure who declared "sox" to be the best (if we are talking the best of the best..etc)

window used: blackman, 1024bands, -220dbfs floor *note the lowered floor*, no img post-processing.

r8b free:
[img]http://img17.**************/img17/570/rb8freei.jpg[/img]

sox lin-phase vhq:
[img]http://img17.**************/img17/3075/soxlpq.jpg[/img]

my copy of cooledit from (y2000) :
[img]http://img17.**************/img17/4822/cedit.jpg[/img]

--
i've send this one to http://src.infinitewave.ca/ but they did not put it online, as it doesn't look very good or maybe because they are somehow biased :

traktor 2.5:
[img]http://img17.**************/img17/8866/tr261p.jpg[/img]


---
edit -> advice: avoid sample rate conversation as much as possible


lubomir

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Old 08-08-2009, 09:00 AM   #27
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@liteon

- Those images are cool but... what the heck am I looking at?
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Old 08-08-2009, 10:14 AM   #28
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Quote:
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And these modes are provided for creative potential --
it is a neat kind of distortion - fair enough.

but in certain situations I have to use the lowest methods for monitoring (when I am trying to record midi with low latency and there is a bunch of stuff being resampled, and in those cases if there was a more efficiant 'good' method that would be cool.

likewise when rendering stems and efficiency gains would be welcome of course...

but totally not a priority all things considered - the current setup is very workable.

and the 'dynamic-ness' of SRC in REAPER very cool - love the varispeed....
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Old 08-08-2009, 01:59 PM   #29
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I like all those pretty, blinky lights, but what do they sound like?
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Old 08-08-2009, 03:47 PM   #30
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They're all pretty close except for the last one which aliases like a bastard.

Aliasing sounds like weird harmonic distortion, where the distortion frequencies are sorta unrelated to the source frequency. Think something like running your mix through a ring modulator, but turned down a bit.

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Old 08-08-2009, 09:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
however i'm not sure who declared "sox" to be the best free resampler
Do a phase test and you'll see where r8brain free fails.

But the biggest difference is in the SPEED of execution.
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:44 PM   #32
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nothing is EVER free
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:55 PM   #33
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Quote:
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The main problem is that REAPER's SRC needs to be dynamic, i.e. supporting changing samplerates on the fly without big penalty.
Would Cockos then consider licensing something like Secret Rabbit Code (aka libsamplerate)? Because it supports dynamic samplerate changes (at least it claims) and has better* (and/or same) quality than REAPER's current SRC while being faster and the commercial license is only 1000 AUD (~900 USD):
http://src.infinitewave.ca/
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Old 08-09-2009, 04:01 PM   #34
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if you ask me it would have to be significantly better sounding or significantly faster to even make an audible/tangible difference. I'd vote no to licensing a cross-grade quality.

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Old 08-09-2009, 04:55 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
And these modes are provided for creative potential -- the medium quality modes sound great and are relatively quick, IMO.

We have no problem in adding support for LGPL algorithms (for example we use SoundTouch...). The main problem is that REAPER's SRC needs to be dynamic, i.e. supporting changing sample rates on the fly without big penalty.
Perhaps the Optimizer (Schwa, the cycle hound) can improve efficiency of the SINC resamplers at some point.

Are render-caching strategies too messy to consider ? Ha! Would remind me all too well of Audiosuite processing, but without the shortcomings. The great thing about Reapers strategy is that you're ALWAYS working with the original audio. In PT we have to be quite careful not to reuse destructively time-stretched material in dialogue editing. The artefacts mount up quickly.
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:42 AM   #36
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If the highest audio quality is wanted every piece of gear and every process should produce artefacts way below known thresholds in order to avoid detection in high rez and "sensitive" set ups and combinations.

One must also realize that errors add up. You may not hear one source of degradation but you must consider the whole chain from mic to speakers and all that happens in between.

I export classical material out of Reaper and do SRC with SoX but I'd really prefer an algo in Reaper of similar high quality as SoX and iZotope to improve workflow.

I would like to see: higher quality SRC and several options of noise shaped dither in Reaper.
With my limited understanding of programming it seems like that would be relatively easy to implement and I can see no reason why.

I would be willing to pay 2-4 times the current price for these improvements.

Please Reaper team.. :-)


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Old 11-06-2009, 01:36 AM   #37
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Couldn't someone code a SoX extension if it can't be added to the exe?
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:11 AM   #38
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the dither in Reaper is extremely good - you're not going to find much better than that.

if SoX can be invoked from the command line someone could throw together an extension for that pretty easily, i think.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:12 AM   #39
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hmm, looks like it's cmd line friendly... let me see if i can throw something together really quickly.
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Old 11-06-2009, 02:32 AM   #40
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an src has a filter which needs to be set by ear.

the nyquist filter is a separate algorithm from the interpolation.

that is one reason that this subject is not so simple. the filter
should, imo always be linear phase, and that implies a f.i.r.
design, and that implies latency. i am not sure what kind of
filter is provided by s.o.x?

izotope has a f.i.r. that is configurable. however, this process will never happen
in real time (zero samples of latency) and still be sounding as good as it can.

this is not a matter of processor speed: when run offline, an src algoroithm can
process data at faster than realtime speed, because there is no need for playback...

but when a software-based f.i.r. filter is fed samples at normal playback
speed, it still requires a certain amount of samples latency to operate.
at least a couple of thousand in most cases.

so... there cannot be a true "real-time" src.

jeff dinces

Last edited by cerberus; 11-06-2009 at 02:42 AM.
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