Old 09-18-2019, 12:41 AM   #1
Lee of the World
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Default Stuck notes. Oy vey.

Hi.

I'm writing modular-ly, so I've got 12 midi tracks routed into one track that has a Tal NoizeMaker Synth plugin. When I flip the "Mute(s)" on and off on the midi tracks a low E(?) keeps getting randomly stuck on the TAL. So the work around is to put TAL NoizeMakers on each of the 12 tracks. That works, but I shouldn't have to do that. Redundant plugins is not good. Any suggestions for this 1986-ish problem?

Thanks for reading.
Lee

Windows 10 home - 1903, v5.983 x64 rev 3fd15a

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Old 09-18-2019, 12:51 AM   #2
Eddy
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i have similar problem too with generative midi stuff and hanging notes - has me thinking I might have to use another DAW for that sort of work. Maybe Cakewalk but for all I know that has the same problem
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:02 AM   #3
Lee of the World
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Yeah, it's kind of an "EDM" type song so I guess all those guys use Ableton - Live. I'm used to Reaper but - gotta do what cha gotta do I guess. Been reading other posts about Reaper stuck notes and it doesn't look too good.

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Old 09-18-2019, 02:42 AM   #4
Lee of the World
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I had to laugh, I read a post earlier on stuck notes and a kid said something like "Is it even worth fixin'? Does anybody even use MIDI anymore?" LOL. Lemme tell ya Son, were it not for MIDI there would be no EDM, for better or for worse. That's just a fact. Lol. Embrace the MIDI. ;-)

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Old 09-18-2019, 03:17 AM   #5
technogremlin
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In my experience (with reaper but also other daws) stuck notes are almost always a plugin problem and not a daw problem.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:57 AM   #6
Lee of the World
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Thanks Mr. Gremlin. You're probably right. It's a free plugin from 2010 so I guess I can't complain.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:10 AM   #7
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If you mute a MIDI track while a note is playing, and the note ends before you unmute the track, then the synth that was receiving the MIDI stream never gets a command to stop playing the note.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:15 AM   #8
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Using 12 instances is probably a better idea anyway … that way you can control EQ, pan, and FX for the 12 different tracks.

Flipping mute on and off is likely your problem anyway … you are probably stopping the MIDI stream before a "note off" event has been sent!

Also, where those note off's are in relation to that note's "note on" event may be hard to diagnose in a pretty dense midi stream.

As has also been said, it also depends how well TAL NM was programmed to handle it's midi stream anyway. Note off processing has nearly always been an issue for as long as MIDI has been around!!

HTH's (a little bit)

dB

PS @lunker - beat me to it!
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:52 AM   #9
Eddy
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but muting a midi item is meant to send an all notes off message - or at least there are various posts/threads on the forum that says it will eg https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=87295
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:59 AM   #10
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Possibly. I'm not in a position to verify it right now.

However, the original post actually referred to muting a MIDI track (not an item). I'm not sure that muting the track would send an "all notes off" event. (it might though -- I just can't test it right now)

My experience (and also from reading many posts about stuck notes) is that they are usually due to a missing "note off" event, which is often a user-based problem in some way or other.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:06 AM   #11
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Not sure myself if muting a MIDI track sends note offs.

I would suspect that MUTE on a track simply mutes the audio output of that track. But, that said, if you send the MIDI from that track to another, then MUTE does indeed stop the midi messages reaching the second track. Still, this does not mean it sends a note off to the synth, which is higherup the midi/audio chain.

I do wonder if Justin can tell us what happens??

dB
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:49 AM   #12
Lee of the World
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Thanks Everyone, very helpful. I'm aware of the note off 'cliff hanger' type of thing, I don't think it's that. The note just pops on out of nowhere, I don't even think it's one of the musical notes in the line(s) that I've written. It's like a ghost. It does it in the 12 instances too but not nearly as often. Oh well. And Dr. Bob's suggestion that keeping things on separate tracks is good too as turning effects on and off within a track is a bear. Complicated machine this Reaper is.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:51 PM   #13
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You could trawl through the event list of the track which does it:-)

If you know the note which does it, find it (them) in the piano roll, stick the play cursor on it, switch to event view and see where (or if) there's a note off close to the note on!

Make sure ALL the midi events are on the same channel too. You could have e.g. a "note on" for the note on a different channel to it's note off?

Again, check the event list to check ALL events are on the same channel for each track.

HTH

dB
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:16 PM   #14
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looks like track mute goes some way to solving my problem, seems to send an all notes off - but is there anyway to automate track mute other than by hand ie using a modulator?

( Maybe I can tweak a js to send and hold all notes off per channel)
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:16 PM   #15
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first see if the F3 key will turn off the stuck notes... that is what it is for
if yes then there could be ways to automate it... but
It really should not happen...
so do look at each midi item in the MIDI Ed. list view and see if there is a note off at the end of each MIDI item.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin View Post
In my experience (with reaper but also other daws) stuck notes are almost always a plugin problem and not a daw problem.
I disagree.. I've used several other DAW's extensively. (logic, fl studio, studio one, ableton) and Reaper is the only one I've had substantial stuck note issues with.


Now, it does tend to happen with certain plugins, but there are several of them I've noticed. And they don't do it in other DAWs. It is something about how Reaper handles them.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:25 PM   #17
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the easiest automatable way I have found is to use js midi note filter to automate pushing notes too high. You can then use the internal LFO modulation or an external one like Cableguys midishaper. Better would be if there was an easy way to automate track mute as that achieves the goal, but the JS method seems to do the trick and is easily automated. No more stuck notes

Randarp from code fn42 and midiprobability from insert piz here are also effective as they allow for automating probability of note = 0. However I have had some issues with randarp crashing

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Old 09-18-2019, 07:34 PM   #18
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I started a thread in the bug report forum where people could list the plugins that seem to have hung notes more frequently.


https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....93#post2182793
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Old 09-19-2019, 06:26 AM   #19
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To automate the MUTE on a track, why not simply use the envelopes/track automation and simply draw your mute on and mute off in the envelope lane?

dB
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Old 09-19-2019, 07:05 AM   #20
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Personally, I find the idea of muting MIDI to be more of an art than an exact science. There is a lot more going on than some people realize.

As observed above, just muting the MIDI stream can result in stuck notes, because some "note-off" events get muted. So the solution is to send an "all notes off" command when muting the MIDI stream. That fixes stuck notes, but it introduces a new problem -- any sustaining notes that you expect to resume when you unmute the MIDI stream don't resume, because they were turned off by the "all notes off" command. So now the unmute function needs to chase the MIDI stream from the very beginning to identify any notes that should resume when you unmute the MIDI stream, and send new "note on" events to restart those notes. However, this means that those sustaining notes don't resume exactly like they would have if only the audio had been muted, because the new "note on" event will re-trigger the envelopes in the synth because it is a new note (not a resumption of the old note). Not to mention that unless the DAW has some type of algorithm for determining an appropriate* new velocity to use for the "note on" event for a resumed note, the resumed note was probably triggered with the velocity of the original "note on" event.) All of that complex interaction results in a completely new note that may sound nothing like what you would expect it to sound like if you had just muted/unmuted the audio.

* note that determining an "appropriate" velocity for for a resumed note would depend on many factors, including the synth being used, the patch loaded in that synth, how long the note had been playing -- all of which make it virtually impossible to calculate a new velocity for a resumed note that will make the new note sound exactly like it would sound if only that audio had been muted -- meaning that the velocity of the original note is probably the best option available.

So even though the idea of muting MIDI may sound like it should be simple to implement flawlessly, it's really not when you dig deeply into it.

I understand that everyone has different work flows and different needs, so what I do may not meet your needs. But personally I do not mute MIDI in mid-stream. I only mute MIDI items/tracks as a means of "hiding" a whole item/track while I am not using it. If I wanted to mute MIDI mid-stream, I would route it to a VSTi audio, and then mute the VSTi, not the MIDI.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:24 PM   #21
Eddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Bob View Post
To automate the MUTE on a track, why not simply use the envelopes/track automation and simply draw your mute on and mute off in the envelope lane?

dB
because I want to automate it with a function (eg an LFO)
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