Old 04-16-2008, 07:05 AM   #41
Deric
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Bl**dy 'ell...

Everyone's one first-name terms now...

Whatever next?

Deric.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:35 AM   #42
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OOh Err,
What a nice little community.

Marcus,

When you mention Reapers settings, are you talking about the settings in Reaper.ini

sliderminv=-72.0000000
slidermaxv=24.0000000

and particularly
slidersh=2.3

I Must admit, I'd never really looked at this file in much detail.
I've always fancied that the faders could behave more like "X" and had no idea that this could be changed!
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:40 AM   #43
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LOL well it's weird being called Norbury! sounds like an old english lord.Norbury Brook is the name of my studio


yes it is a nice place here


Anyway Ian, I've never looked inside reapers .ini I just meant the prefs/default editing behavior there's a menu box for fader shape (0.1-2.3) default being 2.3 which is log


cheers

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Old 04-16-2008, 10:10 AM   #44
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Norbury(tee hee)

I was getting a little fed up with inthepipeline. That too was the name of my studio. Shortly it is to be the name of my little recording school and I also own inthepipeline.net (nothing there at the moment), but it seems Ian is just as sensible to use, except on the whole *I* is slightly more memorable, and the buttons are right next to each other on the keyboard. Perhaps a sign of lazyness!

We are talking about the same setting. This sets the range over which the Reaper faders operate.
Your mention of this has interested me in the way the envelopes and faders function in relationship to each other.

This a little hard to explain, but I'll have a crack at it.
Set a track up in Reaper to display the volume envelope and move the fader around so that you can see how the envelope moves relative to the fader movement.

The fader tracking law (that is to say, the law used to control Reapers internal faders)don't seem to be either linear or log in its behaviour.
[edit: previous remark is a load of bo****ks! It would be more accurate to say that it can be log, greater or less than log or set at "1", Linear]

Whatever law is used, seems to be biased toward easily obtaning an output of unity gain. In other words the difference in output level changes far less around odB than at the top or bottom end of the travel. As I know that you still use "X" you will know how hard it is to set a fader to 0dB without the double click, or entering "0" into the numerical display below a fader.
I'm not quite sure why Justin and co decided to do this. We can double click on the numeric level on Reapers faders to set them to 0dB as well.
[edit:Stupid remark!]

It does however have implications for editing envelopes, because the envelopes display a linear fade regardless of how the fader law is set.

[edit:The automation point, however, moves with a log relationship toward the linear movement of the fader.
So, if the fader is set to Log, the automation point moves with a curve which is twice Log]

So, the fader position is not accurately represented on the envelope curve. This is quite peculiar behaviour. Perhaps the most important parts of the fader are represented IMHO in quite a bad way, much as I hate to put Reaper down in any way at all.

To begin with, it would be much better if the envelope for the fader appeared with its 0dB line relative to where 0dB is on the fader, rather than in the middle of the lane.

At the top of the fader (+6dB upwards) the envelope does not represent any movement in the fader at all. Above this level you can see any points at which the level was changed, but you can't edit them because the envelope information will always reflect a change of less than +6dB. So the automation curve can only be edited by physically moving the fader, not on screen.

The same thing applies to the travel at the bottom of the fader.
Everything below around -30dB (around 30% of the fader travel) is represented in around 3% of the envelope at the bottom of the lane.

The combination of these two factors is not a good one.
This amounts to lack of control of both "volume" and automation in the most sensitive parts of the loudness spectrum.

I'm obviously aware that it is possible to change the range over which the faders work. If this is set to "1" the faders function in a linear fashion, but relative to the automation envelopes, the only options presently available are to display between inf. and 0dB or inf. and +6dB. To work more effectively we would require an option to have "display envelope relative to fader position(linear)".

I do hope that Justin and Co. consider this as an option. It would certainly make volume automation much easier.

[edit: Also now entered on the "Feature Request" forum]

*I*
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Old 04-17-2008, 04:25 AM   #45
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Ian,

In the analogue days fader tapers were log so that you had most control over the area around 0db because,with well recorded material/gain structure, that was the area that needed the most precise control as thats where the faders usually were.

So Reapers 2.3 log tapers i think represent this, an analogue fader though will go from infinity to +6 or whatever.Reapers prefs can be set though so that the fader range can be say -50 to +12 which would make doing a fade to zero difficult.

The automation envelope should represent this the same,but as I'm not at my DAW at the moment i can't remember how it works exactly.I do remember the first time I tried to do a fade out by drawing a line it didnt sound the same as in"X" so I'm not sure if the envelope is Linear.


All good stuff though, I think with the limitations of the 127 step midi protocol as much resolution as possible should be assigned to the area around 0


cheers

Marcus
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Old 04-17-2008, 05:14 AM   #46
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Marcus,

Actually the fader isn't limited to 127 steps, unlike the pan control which is. It uses (127 x 127)=16,129 steps. Have a look higher up this thread, where the working of the faders is un-covered.

What I'm actually referring to is the relationship between the physical position of the fader, which is logarithmic to the position of the automation point.

What I'm saying is that the automation points should have a direct relationship with the position of the fader, but the automation points should have a definable relationship (log, lin or whatever) to what happens to the fade.

When I mix, what I want to see and edit is relative to the actual position of the fader.

It is the relationship between the way that the envelope is displayed and what it actually does to the level which should
be different IMO.

*I*
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:49 AM   #47
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*I* thanks, I agree the automation should give the same feedback as the faders,I have the same issue with automating send levels,there's something weird about how that works,anyway that's another topic

regarding the 127 fader issue, even if reapers faders are 16,129 how does a controller like houston/mackie etc that uses a midi protocol make use of that,surely the channel fader only has a resolution of 127 which is why direct ethernet connections and eucon control work so well in the euphonics,no midi !!!


Anyway, do you think it's going to be possible to get the houston working with Reaper, or is it looking too difficult?


cheers

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Old 04-17-2008, 06:53 AM   #48
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Deric, I made a mistake describing the midi coming from the Jog/Shuttle wheel.

The correction would be:

Clockwise:

B0 12 01(clockwise),B0 13 xx depending on the speed of rotation.
B0 12 7F(anticlockwise), B0 13 xx

The values of 'xx' I can obtain steadily according to the speed of rotation:
slowest->fastest
7F,
06.
It doesn't use every number in-between. In decimal, as the speed of rotation increases the MIDI number decreases from 126 to 06 in decrements of 6. Having siad this, I also managed eventually to get values of 125, 124 and 123 on slow movement, but nothing else.

Sorry about any confusion.

*I*
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Old 04-17-2008, 06:58 AM   #49
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Hi Ian,

No worries... I was waiting for Marcus and yourself to do all of your stuff and then for you to decide on what the 'final' spec. was going to look like.

I'll just leave it with you until you are happy - then if you post the 'most correct' version of everything (or tell me it's all OK) I'll work from that.

I'm taking a bit longer on the 01X as I'm still learning and keep coming up with good stuff and then trying to figure out how to do it...

Anyway, no probs. I'll leave it to you and wait for the final say-so. No rush as I've been on this (01X) for a few days more than I'd planned (and want to bang out a track (or at least a sketch) before getting into the next map!) and want a few music-days before starting this Compiler up again!

Thanks for the update.

Cheers!

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Old 04-17-2008, 07:02 AM   #50
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Cheers Deric,Ian,

I don't feel like I've contributed much to this, but I've enjoyed the ride so far


Marcus
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:08 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
Cheers Deric,Ian,

I don't feel like I've contributed much to this, but I've enjoyed the ride so far


Marcus
It ain't over yet... If I can't get it working with 'just' the stuff Ian's doing you'll be needed soon enough!

Cheers,

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Old 04-17-2008, 07:23 AM   #52
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Marcus,

The 127 x 127 comes from using 2 midi messages for each fader position, so in base 127, the highest position is 127.127, the next position down is 127.126 and so on through to 000.000 at the bottom of the fader. Hope this makes things less muddy.

As for full implementation, I think Deric is the man to ask, or of course Justin, or perhaps both.

Me, I've just tried to unravel the input and output in the hope that it might be possible. I must say though, that there are thousands of people who own these and haven't switched to another DAW software because Houston is only implemented in X and older versions of either Logic or Protools (can't quite remember which).

It is actually a very solid controller and a completely dumb device which just accepts and sends MIDI messages, so it is just a question of implementation.

The fact that the protocol for operating the faders is very similar to that of the Mackie HUI
should imply that the code from the babyhui_csurf.dll could be copied to a potential houston_csurf.dll.

The code for the display is sent in asciII via sysex. We already know that.

We know every message that the Houston sends and receives for the buttons and the rotary encoders.

Then it's a matter of deciding exactly what to make all those lovely illuminated buttons do. For the most part that is already clear.

Despite my desperate lack of programming knowlege I can control anything that the houston will do remotely now, just by having defined all the messages it sends and recieves. These are for the most part identical and logical. If I can do it, I'm pretty sure that someone else can.

*I*
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:55 AM   #53
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Blimey Deric,

You really are a long way into the whole universal style map, reading inbetween the lines. This is great progress. Many thanks in advance.

I'll go about constructing a list of the obvious stuff to take the pressure off your shoulders if you like.

I'd like to suggest that as many of the buttons at the top of the controller (above the encoders)could be made user definable using the method N42 used with his Alphatrack improvements. This way, there would be no quibbling about their function. Anything programmable as a keyboard short-cut could be implemented.
That would give us 28 accessible short-cuts at the touch of a button!

It would also reduce the burden on Deric.

Then we could discuss the implementation of the buttons on the right, in the "Song, Windows, Markers, Numeric Keypad etc.

I should make the point that so far this thread has attracted 475 viewings.
Also, typing "Houston MIDI" into Google brings this thread into view as the second most visited link.

I'm pretty sure that many of these are from Houston owners, so I'd like to invite other Houston users to post in an associated thread with their views on how best to utilise these buttons.

Your thoughts Gentleman?

*I*
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:40 AM   #54
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Ian,

At the risk of being premature... I think this is gonna be huge... (not 'just' the Houston, but this whole CS 'thing').

You may have to start finding a different use for that mouse of yours too...

Anyway, gimme a few more days.

I want to get some of the GUI-devs involved soon - I think we *need* an auto-updating plugin (that adds 'like' a VST-type plugin). Auto-updating? That's to show you what the keys do in the mode your in...

A plug-in that 'reflects' ones surface... either a mock-up or a photo-type bitmap... Press a 'special' button on the surface and voila - it's on screen.

Muhaha!

Anyway, I'm on with the donkey work...

PM me if you're willing to spend some time learning some coding - it's really not that hard to do this stuff for what we're doing.

Deric.

[Edit: Please feel free to do as much of the work as you can. With the 01X I'm already using keys that simply weren't available with 'X'... funny that... Oh! And don't forget about 'key-combinations'...]

[Edit2: Jot down some ideas - currently I'm assigning modes to do Take Handling, Item Nav., Pitch Control(etc), Punch In/Out, Window Nav, Marker and Region Nav, Zoom & Scroll Control, there's loads more too - but that bit of scrap paper isn't on the top of the pile... I'll link this thread to the one in General Discussion that has my original post for the 01X in a few days when I post the code and functionality.]
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:32 AM   #55
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Ian,

Did I mention that, ultimately, it'd be 'handy' if REAPER queried the device and loaded the corresponding map automatically?

It'd be handy just to have one 'map' that included all of the currently-available maps... All this stuff already causes loads of user-confusion so the above seems a possible improvement...

Deric.

Ps. Other-DAW devs... think you're a bit behind the curve chaps... best get busy eh?
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Old 04-17-2008, 12:53 PM   #56
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Deric,

I'd love to spend some time learning to program using c++, but I'm shortly to begin the process of moving and I'm starting a recording school as well, so my plate is pretty full at the moment.

I might be able to take something on, but the chances of my being able to do anything quickly are really slim. I'm not even sure if I'm going to have broadband access when I move

Having said this I am very interested in the whole subject, not least because I have 36 motorised faders sitting in a box somewhere. I'd been considering getting into the PIC programming thing etc, but where is the time? I have 2 projects on the go as well, and summer is on the way. That usually means location recording for me.

*I*
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:40 AM   #57
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Ian,

I completely understand, for me, taking 'this' on has become a total time-vacuum...

No worries... as long as you don't turn up at my place with that 36-fader surface demanding a working config. before you leave
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:49 AM   #58
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Hi All,

I've been away from my DAW and the Houston for a little while.

Now it is re-calibrated, the faders seem to move exactly as they should using the Mackie Hui(partial).dll.apart from the little jump up and down.

Hey Deric,
How are you doing with the 01X csurf support?
I hope it's going well.

It strikes me that the easiest way to do the Houston thing, at least to initially get the thing working, might be just to make fader 8, and the master fader function in the hui.dll and then apply N42's code to the main csurf.dll for the hui.dll so that all the buttons could be user programmable. It's a long way from ideal, I know. Not least because none of the visual indicators would work. Having said that, it would allow virtually any midi control surface buttons to become usable.

I understand that you are busy. Heck, it took me a couple of days just to check and double check the messages to and from Houston. I understand entirely.

As for a Reaper control surface plug which recognises the control surface, yes, in an ideal world I would agree with you. The problem might be that there are so many completely dumb surfaces out there which don't identify themselves as such. That would truly be a huge task.

*I*
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Old 04-27-2008, 10:08 AM   #59
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Ian,

I've been away doing post production in Corwall for a new project so I've been away from my studio.I'm back on THursaday so can check/help out with any progress

cheers

marcus
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Old 04-27-2008, 08:21 PM   #60
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Hi Marcus,

You should have stopped by in Bristol on the way!
There's always a good supply of beer and Cider around here
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:47 AM   #61
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Thanks for the offer Ian I might do that one day from my HOuse in South west London though I go down the A303, it's a nicer drive and shorter


cheers

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Old 05-12-2008, 02:39 AM   #62
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Hey Ian, Marcus,

Have now 'done' the 01X - take a look at what it does:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20004

(please post any comments (you may want to make) regarding the above into the above post - let's keep this one for Houston)

Haven't been in this thread as have been finishing the above.

I've another thing I want to learn how to do, have a great rock-groove I *need* to 'get down, and will then come back to do the Houston.

Apologies for being 'quiet' in this thread lately!

Cheers

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Old 05-12-2008, 07:44 AM   #63
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hey Deric,

It's good to "hear your voice" back on this thread again.

Well done again for completing the 01X Csurf. Great work.

I'm same as you, doing some music at the moment, but I'll be keeping an eye out on the forum.

I'm also considering the possibility of learning a little more about c++, but that will take some time. I'd be interested to know if you think this might be possible with the present SDK:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16899

Err, something I might attempt to write.

Whadaya think?

*I*
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Old 05-12-2008, 12:20 PM   #64
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Hi Ian,

Thanks for the kind comments!

I checked out your post - very interesting idea.

Unfortunately I simply don't yet know enough to advise whether this (your idea) is currently implement-able with the SDK as it stands.

If I have a better idea (on its current feasibility) in the coming weeks I'll post back.

Sorry man - I just don't know enough to answer you at this stage.

Cheers,

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Old 05-12-2008, 12:36 PM   #65
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Hi Guys,

I've been doing music too these last few weeks so it's good to see this thread open again.

Well done on getting the Yamaha sorted I presume having done the first one the next one will be easier


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Old 05-12-2008, 12:52 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
...I've been doing music too these last few weeks...
Good to see you guys have been soul-feeding! I need some real bad!

Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
...I presume having done the first one the next one will be easier
Hey Marcus, I bl**dy well hope so!

I really need to get a groove together first (it's been buzzing around my head since before I started this coding malarky!).

Thanks for the kind words - oh - and do download the video, I know you don't have an 01X but check out what I've made it do - it might give you guys some food for thought about your Houston's REAPER-functionality etc.

Cheers

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Old 05-14-2008, 03:07 AM   #67
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Nice vid deric,

What's the state of play ATM with the Houston, how far down the line are you? I know the Yamaha was an incredible amount of work so hopefully the Houston won't be as great a challenge


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Old 05-14-2008, 10:17 AM   #68
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Quote:
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Hey Ian, Marcus,...I've another thing I want to learn how to do, have a great rock-groove I *need* to 'get down, and will then come back to do the Houston...
Hey Marcus, how's the memory mate?

[scouse]Or you just hasslin', eh? eh? eh?[/scouse]



Cheers,

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Old 05-15-2008, 01:48 AM   #69
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Hi Ian,

Do you have a summary of all of the information you've collated please?

Err.. make that Houston-related information!

It'd be handy to have all of this stuff in one long file as there's so many posts here now, many with additional info.

Cheers Ian

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Old 05-15-2008, 03:40 AM   #70
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Hi deric,

Sorry I didn't read your first post properly wasn't meaning to come across in anyway 'pushy'

I was knocked out at the degree of programing put into the Yamaha, my first look at the video was only brief but when I watched the whole thing....wow!


As i said before if I can help let me know



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Old 05-15-2008, 06:49 AM   #71
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Hi Marcus,

Hey, no worries - I was quoting to save myself typing it all in again

Anyway, as we'd previously said, I may need some time 'on' the Houston but will give it a good go just from the stuff Ian's done first.

...If I do have to venture out the coffee's on you!

(well not on you...)

Oh and a bring all your wiminz too!



Cheers Marcus,

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Old 05-16-2008, 04:15 AM   #72
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Hi Ian,

Just bumping this request to the top of this thread in case you missed it, not hassling you at all mate, I just noticed that it's become a bit buried under the chat Marcus and I were having

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Hi Ian...
Cheers

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Old 05-16-2008, 05:40 AM   #73
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Hi Marcus, Deric,

Sorry guys, I've been away from the net for a little while, trying top figure out why one of two(new) machines was dropping audio all over the place. It turned out to be a Samsung 200GB SATA2 drive delivering a miserable 45gb transfer rate....Oh well.

Re. the Houston info, Yes I'll summarise the info. set for you Deric.

As far as functionality goes, well I really don't want to make life too complicated for you. I watched the vid.(no wonder it took you so long to make, very informative and professional). The mind boggles at the possible alternatives. There are so many buttons available on the Houston. In fact Houston owners could spend weeks wrangling over how "best" to implement the whole surface.
For the moment I'm sticking to the suggestion that all the buttons above the encoders be user definable, faders, encoders and the buttons in-between, transport controls, jog and shuttle wheel as your implementation of the 01X. That just leaves the buttons surrounding the numpad.

Marcus, This is definitely where your input would be much appreciated. I'm pretty sure that you and Deric are more aware of the more subtle functions of Reaper than am I. I must admit that every time I plug in Soundcraft-Houston (well, they did manufacture it) I see unpleasant clunky images from some software I used to use. These can border on the equivalent of photo-epilepsy, which worsens with additional coffee and cigarettes. Last time I became fully conscious after one of these bouts I had the impression of several fader-tops embedded in my forehead. Please help me out!

Ian
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Old 05-17-2008, 01:51 AM   #74
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...a Samsung 200GB SATA2 drive delivering a miserable 45gb transfer rate...
Dodgy drive? Be interested to know the result, thanks!

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Re. the Houston info, Yes I'll summarise the info. set for you Deric.
That'd be great - cheers Ian

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As far as functionality goes... ...The mind boggles at the possible alternatives. There are so many buttons available on the Houston. In fact Houston owners could spend weeks wrangling over how "best" to implement the whole surface.
Yes, that's really a big issue - deciding on the feature-set, and then how the chosen function set is arranged across the surface.

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...For the moment I'm sticking to the suggestion that all the buttons above the encoders be user definable, faders, encoders and the buttons in-between, transport controls, jog and shuttle wheel as your implementation of the 01X... That just leaves the buttons surrounding the numpad...
OK I'll see what I can do - I've downloaded an image of it now so at least I can see where all the buttons and knobs are physically located!

BTW the zooming and scrolling via the jog wheel is great! A real time and ergonomic saver!

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...I must admit that every time I plug in Soundcraft-Houston (well, they did manufacture it) I see unpleasant clunky images from some software I used to use. These can border on the equivalent of photo-epilepsy, which worsens with additional coffee and cigarettes. Last time I became fully conscious after one of these bouts I had the impression of several fader-tops embedded in my forehead. Please help me out!
LMFAO Yeah those X-backs can be very dangerous and happen at any time - don't worry, brother, help is on it's way!

Hehe...

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Old 05-17-2008, 02:41 AM   #75
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Deric,

That's great news about the zooming etc with the scroll wheel,you're right it's a big ergonomic improvement

I'll have a think about button assignments too over the weekend.

thanks again

Marcus
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Old 05-17-2008, 03:02 AM   #76
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Deric,

That's great news about the zooming etc with the scroll wheel,you're right it's a big ergonomic improvement

I'll have a think about button assignments too over the weekend.

thanks again

Marcus
Hi Marcus,

Yes, I have to say, the zoom/scroll functions I've added to the 01X's jog wheel - combined with the arrow-keys Track & Item navigation have REALLY improved speed of workflow - it might sound like a 'small thing' but it's really made a huge difference (to me at least).

Getting around tracks/items/project is now (probably) as quick as it could possibly be - and all the time one's hands do not leave the surface!

I'm SO pleased with how much those, particular enhancements, have improved DAW interaction

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Old 05-17-2008, 07:48 AM   #77
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Hi All,

Here is the amalgamated info for the Houston. Time for a nice cup of tea!

*I*

PS. Just noticed that the 01X is now integrated into the next Reaper release.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Houston Amalgamated.zip (110.0 KB, 316 views)
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:06 AM   #78
Deric
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Hi Ian,

Nice one, cheers, am downloading now.

Won't start work on this just yet but it won't be too long

(I'm just trying to figure out some more stuff (that will be of benefit to all this sort of stuff) and get a more thorough understanding of what's what etc.)



Deric.

Ps. Yes, I saw that - cool. BTW, you should see what's coming next (01X V2)
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Old 05-17-2008, 08:19 AM   #79
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Ian,

Very nicely laid out Word document mate!

Can I ask - could you check whether the 'ZAP' and 'SHIFT' buttons work with every-other button please?

i.e. If you press 'Shift' or 'Zap' do you ALWAYS see the value (generated by pressing Shift?).

With the 01X in 'X' mode the Shift-key only generates a value in combination with certain other keys (in fact many keys have this behaviour in 'X' mode - a real PITA (or at least it was )).

Cheers Ian,

Deric.
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Old 05-19-2008, 06:51 AM   #80
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Hi Deric,

Ooh, didn't think of this. Just doin'it now........

No, Houston doesn't send any other messages that I can find, just the ones in the list.
Shift and ZAP make no difference to the output.
I'm guessing that in the case of the 01X this might have been important so that 01X could access some of 'X's functions with less hardware buttons.

*I*
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