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Old 11-19-2019, 06:05 AM   #41
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Do not forget the notation.

The problem is the notation is white BG, but the colors used for notes are the same as in the MIDI editor with the dark BG. Notation cannot be dark, it would be really distracting.

Pic - up/down channels 1,2,3,4. Left - unselected notes, right - selected notes. Option to color noteheads is on.

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Old 11-19-2019, 06:19 AM   #42
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Using a darker background (not fully dark, but some gray, maybe WT's favorite green-gray hue? ) would maybe work... it's tricky with notation. I don't have it fully sorted out in my RADO v4 theme, but at least it's an attempt...

https://i.imgur.com/2a3JXvj.png
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:17 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
This is a dark BG with white notes and I don't think this would work for the majority of notation users. Notation has been used for centuries and it was on white paper. For me it is far more easier to orient myself in the white BG and dark notes.
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:22 AM   #44
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These are my colors. I am using mainly 4 channels (4 voices is the default thing in notation, SATB), with 5,6 as supplementary ones. I tried to spread hues as much as possible and also tweaked brightness.

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Old 11-19-2019, 07:29 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
This is a dark BG with white notes and I don't think this would work for the majority of notation users. Notation has been used for centuries and it was on white paper. For me it is far more easier to orient myself in the white BG and dark notes.
Yeah, I know. It's weird and needs an adjustment phase. But it blends well with the rest of the GUI, at least.


(Your note colors look pretty great!)
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Old 11-19-2019, 07:33 AM   #46
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I don't touch the notation editor, that is very much schwa's domain. But you're absolutely right, there is a fundamental problem here that I hadn't considered

Possible huge rethink in progress, please stand by.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:04 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
I don't touch the notation editor, that is very much schwa's domain.
The color file is the same for both the notation and the midi editor.

And thus it's really unflexible. Maybe we could make a FR?
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:06 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
This is a dark BG with white notes and I don't think this would work for the majority of notation users. Notation has been used for centuries and it was on white paper. For me it is far more easier to orient myself in the white BG and dark notes.
True.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:35 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Maybe we could make a FR?
Please don't make FRs in this thread.

...cough...

I just made it, looks good, stand by
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:54 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Please don't make FRs in this thread.
I meant a proper FR in the dedicated forum for devs to provide a separate files for midi editor and notation.
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Old 11-19-2019, 08:58 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
I meant a proper FR in the dedicated forum for devs to provide a separate files for midi editor and notation.
I know man, I was joking because after repeatedly saying this I then hypocritically did it myself
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Old 11-19-2019, 11:29 AM   #52
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In the V6 theme you do not see the +/- controls to add or delete a cc lane very well versus the default V5 theme.

.ps I just remembered that I'm using a Hi-Contrast Windows 10 theme, if it makes a difference.

https://stash.reaper.fm/37530/Midi-editor.png
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Last edited by White Tie; 11-19-2019 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Hi Contrast Theme
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:22 PM   #53
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Quote:
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In the V6 theme you do not see the +/- controls to add or delete a cc lane very well versus the default V5 theme.
Good shout, thanks!
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:28 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Tie View Post
Good shout, thanks!
I could have sworn "I have difficulty seeing this" was firmly on your "will not fix" list, given that many other elements of the theme have the same issue and you've told us to stop bringing it up.
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Old 11-19-2019, 12:44 PM   #55
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No, it was a good bit of feedback. Much appreciated!
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Old 11-19-2019, 02:08 PM   #56
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I just came back from a friend that used reaper until 2 weeks ago and now moved to another DAW because of reaper's GUI (theme)

his reason was the same as what I feel exactly "reaper just doesn't feel complete" which is not inspiring enough..

I moved back to FLstudio but I still use reaper for final mixing.
my friend move to studio one and left reaper behind

I really feel that reaper need more attention and maybe more people involved to make it looks more completed DAW.
I see updates every 2-3 days, but still after 10 years that I use this program, it feels drafty somehow and not as inspiring when it comes to its GUI.

not sure that you care
but I'm just saying... and that's because I still care.
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Thanks devs for adding the abillity to use single click to change a single velocity And single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
much appreciated.
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Old 11-19-2019, 02:21 PM   #57
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!NEW VERSION! Please see the theme thread for a new version with the changes we've been discussing.

- A number of colouring tweaks
- The new note color map. Unselected state is now brighter, mute is black, channel one colour change.

The change to the channel one colour, in particular, seems like a big win. Thanks to everyone who suggested it!

You'll be pleased to know a fix for the notation problem is on its way, please keep an eye out for a when a new pre is available.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:12 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflected View Post
I just came back from a friend that used reaper until 2 weeks ago and now moved to another DAW because of reaper's GUI (theme)

his reason was the same as what I feel exactly "reaper just doesn't feel complete" which is not inspiring enough..

I moved back to FLstudio but I still use reaper for final mixing.
my friend move to studio one and left reaper behind

I really feel that reaper need more attention and maybe more people involved to make it looks more completed DAW.
I see updates every 2-3 days, but still after 10 years that I use this program, it feels drafty somehow and not as inspiring when it comes to its GUI.

not sure that you care
but I'm just saying... and that's because I still care.
The GUI and the Theme are two different things. At least in Reaper you can use lots of themes or even do your own theme... "inspiring themes" ... my goodness, no comment.
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:55 AM   #59
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The new greenish cc color is much better.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:22 AM   #60
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The channel hues goes sequentially from red to red. I'd suggest to shuffle the order into 4 groups of 4 "hue families" - GBYR.

something like this:

voices 1-4 https://paletton.com/#uid=73c1q0kuLTxiIV4oNUjN+RMOGur
voices 5-8 https://paletton.com/#uid=73y1q0kuLTxiIV4oNUjN+RMOGur
voices 9-12 https://paletton.com/#uid=73U1q0kuLTxiIV4oNUjN+RMOGur
voices 13-16 https://paletton.com/#uid=74f1q0kuLTxiIV4oNUjN+RMOGur

(Notice the hue is not HSB based)
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:24 AM   #61
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^^^^ Extremely good idea!
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:37 AM   #62
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There is also color by voice, which now uses 0,90,180 hues. This could be also spread around the circle (3 voices exist - default, top, bottom).

Maybe just the cyan a little bit more into blue.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:14 AM   #63
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For voices I'd kinda want more obvious differences, not just shades of cyan/blue. Default voice should have the same color as MIDI channel 1, and then low and high should go more towards blue and red from there.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:45 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
The channel hues goes sequentially from red to red. I'd suggest to shuffle the order into 4 groups of 4 "hue families" - GBYR.
Always happy to have this conversation If everyone else gets bored while we nerd out about colours, that's their problem By the way, if you'd like to have it in a freer and less pressured context, please do have your say on my custom colour palettes, which are much more fun! The colour map does rather defy efforts to bring design to it, because any perceived 'weighting' in the colours has no reason to be expected to coincide with the musical weighting, except in velocity obviously.

We have sort-of experimented with chunking into groups before, without a great deal of success, though its hard to say how much of that comes down to users legitimate demand to 'not make anything worse in any context' in practice meaning 'just don't change anything, ever' which is how we end up with the same colourmap being used and reused for the best part of a decade.

I'd be happy to look at this again, but as I recall the main complaint was that, if we were to assume users using vaguely sequential channels more often than not (though, pffft, how legitimate is that?) then similar colours reappear with greater spacing between their contexts, increasing the risk of unrelated things being mistaken for the same thing.

My response to that, which I still personally believe is a very good point even though I'm not a heavy MIDI user, is that it is not correct to assume that all users use all the channels, and that I would expect a good majority of users to have their channels clumped down in the low numbers (assuming people start from one ...?), and so there is benefit to be found from maximising colour differentiation down there. Complicated MIDI is out of my area of expertise, and my MIDI testers tend to be people who do lots of complicated MIDI, and so I do get the vague idea that sometimes I should, to a degree, represent the needs of the casual user, which I think colour blocks would do. I am not sufficiently confident of my position on this to coming close to overruling a load of hardcore composers though!

A lot of this also fundamentally comes down to the obvious problem that a colour theorist's response to 'differentiating between 16 different things of equal weight using solely colour" would be OMG don't do that, ever. Well, we do have to do it, so ...er... heh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
(Notice the hue is not HSB based)
Can you explain what you mean by that please?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
There is also color by voice, which now uses 0,90,180 hues. This could be also spread around the circle (3 voices exist - default, top, bottom).
Voice assigns its colours from the pitch colours, and is hardwired. That's not to say the pitch colours wouldn't benefit from some attention, of course I have been expressly asked not to change the 'C=Red' starting point that people have become used to, which doesn't mean I can't, it just means if I do I would need a very good reason. If you can provide such a reason, I'd gladly put it into the conversation.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:08 AM   #65
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I would expect a good majority of users to have their channels clumped down in the low numbers (assuming people start from one ...?)
Depends what sort of thing is being done. Drumkits are usually channel 10 on a great variety of hardware synths/workstations, for example.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:37 AM   #66
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Many drum machines used to only responded on channel 10. If you wanted to use two drum machines you had to stick them on different outputs or use a little remapper box; it was a massive pain!

Anyway, using that as an example, if we were to chunk in 4s, your drums might be uncomfortably close to the colour of channel 2, which you might be(?) on more occasions be likely to be using than channel 9. Er ...right? Maybe?
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:43 AM   #67
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Maybe, but it'd really depend how big the difference in shading/hue/whatever between chunks may be. Right? As long as we have a very clear difference between selected and unselected event state, I think you can be relatively generous with the hue rotation. Yes?
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:55 AM   #68
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Well yes, but if it were possible for the difference to be high enough, then the same would apply to adjacent channels having that difference, and the whole reason we're even discussing that is that its clearly not possible to definitively declare that to be true. Or indeed untrue! heh.

We previously had 5 colour chunking in the channel section, with increasing brightness to separate the chunks. Which obviously mixed the metaphors with selected state and generated repeated complaint. So not doing that any more will be great.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:10 AM   #69
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Those are two valid opposites. Maybe the option here would do - to have two colour maps, one sequential, one shuffled. Could be changed via the script, don't know if the API allows that though.

Or there could be the third option - to have low (1-4?) channels differentiated, and 5-16 sequential. The low ones would be further differentiated from the high ones by saturation/lightness, e.g. 1-4 with high saturation; 5-16 lower saturation, just enough to be perceived as being different from 1-4.

I am coming from the notation side of use, I do not use the MIDI editor itself very often. In the notation generally, there is the standard of 4 voices - soprano, alto, tenor, bass, which I have assigned to channels 1-4. I also use channels 5 and 6 as supplementary voices when I run out of the first 4 voices.

Here are my real use (including the bottom one) examples:

1,2,3,4


5,1,2


1,2,3,4



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
(Notice the hue is not HSB based)
Can you explain what you mean by that please?
The HSB color wheel is based on what I call a technical color (based on how hardware, pixels, human eye works) = cyan is placed against red. I found this one to be better for finishing (color grading).
https://mk0mixinglightefx5p5.kinstac...015-ML0307.jpg

In what I call the painter's wheel, there is green against red leaving more room for yellows. For me this one is better for creating.
https://color.adobe.com/create

The colors you use are based on the HSB color wheel, giving IMO too many blues. I've counted 2 reds, 1 orange, 1 yellow, 3 greens, 4 blues, 4 purple. Some blues and purples looks very close to each other. But don't know if using the painter's wheel for 16 hues wouldn't lead to some others colors looking too similar.

Quote:
Voice assigns its colours from the pitch colours, and is hardwired.
Keeping red at Cs is fine I think, with hue changing sequentially as the pitch goes up. This mirrors how it sounds in a way.

Regarding voice colors, maybe this could be also requested from the devs in the same package as the other notation issue.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:17 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
The colors you use are based on the HSB color wheel, giving IMO too many blues. I've counted 2 reds, 1 orange, 1 yellow, 3 greens, 4 blues, 4 purple. Some blues and purples looks very close to each other.
That's a very good observation! Indeed there are too many shades of blue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Regarding voice colors, maybe this could be also requested from the devs in the same package as the other notation issue.
And yes, it would be really great if notation voices didn't hardcode to pitch colors in the colormap.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:50 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Those are two valid opposites. Maybe the option here would do - to have two colour maps, one sequential, one shuffled. Could be changed via the script, don't know if the API allows that though.
No, though you as a user can change maps at any time. Options > Preferences > Editing Behavior > MIDI Editor. This is a system setting and overrides any theme map.

I suppose one could describe the goal here, as default, to be "try to have the smallest proportion of users need to do that".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Or there could be the third option - to have low (1-4?) channels differentiated, and 5-16 sequential. The low ones would be further differentiated from the high ones by saturation/lightness, e.g. 1-4 with high saturation; 5-16 lower saturation, just enough to be perceived as being different from 1-4.

I am coming from the notation side of use, I do not use the MIDI editor itself very often. In the notation generally, there is the standard of 4 voices - soprano, alto, tenor, bass, which I have assigned to channels 1-4. I also use channels 5 and 6 as supplementary voices when I run out of the first 4 voices.
I would be very wary of designing a 'one size fits bFooz solution' ...I've made similar mistakes in the past, and so I would need to hear corroborating advice. Any other score users want to weigh in on this?

Quote:
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The colors you use are based on the HSB color wheel, giving IMO too many blues.
More than likely, I've just copied them directly from the legacy map, which never had the appropriate due diligence done. All the more reason to at last replace it, right?

Here's some tuning of the spreads, see what you think.

Channel (top old, bottom tuned)


Pitch (top old, bottom tuned)


I'm not entirely happy with the yellow/green transition there, but it feels like progress at least.

I really don't want to start using saturation variations, because that would be letting down the users who rightly complained about the map seeming to assign a 'weighting' to one channel or pitch over another, which likely would have no musical validity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bFooz View Post
Keeping red at Cs is fine I think, with hue changing sequentially as the pitch goes up. This mirrors how it sounds in a way.

Regarding voice colors, maybe this could be also requested from the devs in the same package as the other notation issue.
That's very unlikely to happen, unless a) we can come up with a very convincing argument, and b) not right now. <shh don't tell anyone> what we're getting is a separate colormap for the score editor. But it will still do voice from the velocity section. I think we would need to retain parity between the two maps for velocity, so I suspect we're stuck on that and going to have to do our best with the functionality we have now on this, sorry.
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:59 AM   #72
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Those tuned colors do look better/smoother transition to me.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:06 AM   #73
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There are just 15 colors for channels. If you consider the channel 1 to have the Channel 1 Green HSB(167,98,97), then one of the greens in the pallette is too close to this one.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:20 AM   #74
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In channels, now colors 3 and 4 are too close. What if you used that dirty green original-4 and replaced either current-3 or current-4?

Edit:
Or maybe make current-3 darker a bit.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:24 AM   #75
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I guess for judging these palettes, it would be best if the colors would be spread in space over the dark bg, simulating the real use.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:32 AM   #76
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What about these guys, they have 16 hues ready to use. https://www.materialui.co/colors
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:36 AM   #77
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The note colors seem fine, I'd maybe turn down brightness on the cyan, it stands out too much, especially comparing to the following blue.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:46 AM   #78
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Quote:
I would be very wary of designing a 'one size fits bFooz solution'
I agree, this would need a proper user research. What about looking into those other lower daws which probably did some.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:53 AM   #79
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S1 pitches

unselected-selected-muted-mutedselected

All white keys are more saturated, all black keys are less saturated with the color based on the lower key, expecting the black key to be sharp instead of flat.

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Old 11-20-2019, 07:54 AM   #80
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Stupid question but for this how did you get some velocity text to be light and others dark depending on the note color?

EDIT ok I checked my own theme and it also does this. I swear it didn't used to do this... very confused now...

Last edited by Argle; 11-20-2019 at 08:14 AM.
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