Old 10-23-2019, 07:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by AVboy View Post
Then there are the dev's who, at least on the surface (based on what I can see from this forum) are interacting with a small core of people who have time/care to test the pre-releases, and are responding to that feedback and that feedback alone. If there's evidence to the contrary by all means point it out.
If you see "reacting" as posting an answer to your post, than you're right.
However, there's also the "reacting" in a sense of "Oh, nice idea, I put it on my long-term to dolist." or "Oh, let's just try to fix this thing." or "Oh, haven't thought about that. Hmm..tricky thing to solve, need time to think about that one." without replying at all.

I personally prefer them to spend their time on doing the development than spending time on posting dozens of "Right" and "Will do it" posts.

There is, by the way, a great example on a feature, where many many many many many people discussed it in very fine detail: global shortcuts.
If you read the pre-release-threads on that, you'll see, how close the devs worked on that WITH ALL of the community to get it right, with more than the common two or three members of the community, even reworking it massively numerous times because of that feedback.
I'm pretty sure, they read all the stuff and take this into account, for this feature too. That's why this feature isn't in a final release yet, for such discussions to happen, so it will not be broken in the final version and still a step forward as a feature.

@others about this topic
So, add your comments about new features and especially about things broken because of that and do it politely. Suggest different approaches so the devs have an idea what you have in your mind.
Or at least: tell more about your personal workflow so everyone knows, where the problem lies, maybe having an idea of improving it with good tips right away with stuff already existing.
This still works out the best and often I'm really suprised by suggestions I get, even though I dig deep into Reaper. There's always more stuff in there than I know already.

I have the feeling, that many(not all of them, but many) of my comments and suggestions, bugreports have been taken into account, without many replies and I would not count myself into that "close circle".
And I'm pretty sure, others have the same feeling too(though not everyone, I have to admit).
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Old 10-23-2019, 07:46 AM   #42
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^^^^ This
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:03 AM   #43
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Thanks, @mespotine. Well said. Track delay is also another very good example of this which was recently added.

So, back on topic. I'm really with ED on this one. I know it's not the sexiest request but consistent windows in terms of theme, position and naming conventions is really critical to workflow (and preventing OCD episodes lol). Hoping this gets addressed at some point.

Quote:
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CC LFO dialog doesn't follow theme colors, like its automation item brother does.

Please, devs, gasping for visual consistency here... ;(

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=207692

(Also regarding parameter names in that dialog, in automation item LFO you have "Amp skew" and "Freq skew", so instead of making the dialog wider, you could just copy the terminology? You know... CONSISTENCY? )

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Old 10-23-2019, 08:21 AM   #44
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Concerning the LFO tool:

the phase behavior seems a little odd to me. When creating shapes,
the first wave always starts in the middle (is cut off).
Only the square seems correct to me:



I would expect all shapes to start at the lowest or highest level,
just like the square.


And on another note: an additional sine wave would be great
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:21 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
I know it's not the sexiest request but consistent windows in terms of theme, position and naming conventions is really critical to workflow (and preventing OCD episodes lol). Hoping this gets addressed at some point.
May add 'to your workflow' because honestly personally I don't care which color the windows have as long as the functionality is there. Just to give another perspective.
Surely I wouldn't oppose if they get unified either though.
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:34 AM   #46
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May add 'to your workflow' because honestly personally I don't care which color the windows have as long as the functionality is there. Just to give another perspective.
Surely I wouldn't oppose if they get unified either though.
That has nothing to do with workflow, though. That's purely for consisteny and it's just a good thing to have windows to look like as you would expect.


Back to the LFO tool:

when changing the phase, I can get some shapes to start correctly, but then of course the other waveforms aren't:

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Old 10-23-2019, 08:41 AM   #47
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May add 'to your workflow' because honestly personally I don't care which color the windows have as long as the functionality is there. Just to give another perspective.
Surely I wouldn't oppose if they get unified either though.
Well, like ED said, if you have one particular window that keeps popping up in the top corner of the screen, it's really really maddening. I have 4 screens so when something pops up in the top corner of monitor 1 it's a real workflow killer to have to go grab it and move it. Just one example. In terms of dialogue consistency, when you have a lot of information spread across multiple monitors, you are trying to get as much accurate info you can with a glance. When dialogue windows that should be similar look different, the eye separates them as different. So, basically you are getting inaccurate information from that glance, especially when trying to parse a lot of other information.

And besides that, consistency IS its own workflow!
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Old 10-23-2019, 08:54 AM   #48
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Yeah, it's one of these tiny details, that eat time and muscle-energy. Combined over many hours, this becomes more painful than necessary.
Having the ability to not spend too much time on putting things from a to z is also beneficial on health, like avoiding the risk of Tenosynovitis by simple reduction of useless tasks.

Another dialog-window not taken care of yet: the Add Shortcuts-dialog in the Actions-dialog. This is placed always at the same position.
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:52 AM   #49
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Select .mov from the format dropdown, but add ".mp4" to the end of the "Render to:" field.
The "Render to:" field cannot be written on, it is grayed out.
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Old 10-23-2019, 09:55 AM   #50
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TEN TIMES faster? Wow, that's quite a claim.
yes it is. that was a response to someone who claim that his workflow is the way to go.



for me the midi editor's basics feels like a broken tool.
If I can't use single click to change a single velocity without dragging
If I can't use single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
If I can't reset the velocity to a fixed default value.
If right click is used to delete notes from the velocity lane and i can't adjust it to do better thing instead of something that is destructive for me ...what a weird default!

these and more cause me and others to feel like something is just wrong with the software!


the arrangement in reaper is maybe the best in the market.
Yes there are lots of reasons why I use reaper, I even try to convince many friends to join, but midi editing is so important to me and many others and it is the weakest part of reaper for so many years already...I really need it to be more adjustable.

the main reason I can't convince my friends to join is because reaper's midi editor.

100% of the people I know in real life that tried reaper said the same, magazines and the reviews you see in the web show that the main CONs of reaper are regarding the MIDI Editor workflow. what else do you need?
this isn't a fiction... the midi editor just need more attention and the mouse need to be more adjustable to allow better workflow.

Last edited by Reflected; 10-23-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:20 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Reflected View Post
for me the midi editor's basics feels like a broken tool.
If I can't use single click to change a single velocity without dragging
If I can't use single click to remove a single note without dragging.
If I can't reset the velocity to a fixed default value.
If right click is used to delete notes from the velocity lane and i can't adjust it to do better thing instead of something that is destructive for me ...what a weird default!

At least to that part of the post I have to agree. Is there a single click solution to change the velocity of a note?
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:11 PM   #52
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100% of the people I know
is not 100% of Reaper userbase. Probably more like <1%. So, statistically very likely insignificant.
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Old 10-23-2019, 12:35 PM   #53
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is not 100% of Reaper userbase. Probably more like <1%. So, statistically very likely insignificant.
So must be Luster, Reflected and I are in this <1% ))
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:03 PM   #54
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If I can't use single right click to remove a single note without dragging.
To help Reflected, I wanted to write a quick, tiny script that runs the native "Delete note under mouse" action when right-clicking, but then realized: there seems to be no such native action!
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Old 10-23-2019, 01:57 PM   #55
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"Delete note under mouse" action ... there seems to be no such native action!
yup, and yet after years, my brain still tries to use the same shortcut i used for "delete item under mouse" every day

the "delete note under mouse cursor" script (forget who wrote it) doesn't work reliably when you've got hidden note rows
edit- Lokasenna. and it has something to do with sws.
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Old 10-23-2019, 02:32 PM   #56
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If I may, I'd like to reiterate this one more time, just to keep the idea floating around.

Some of us expressed that we would like the ability to apply actions, custom actions, and scripts to all the mouse modifiers, not just the few that exist now.

Please........
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Old 10-23-2019, 04:30 PM   #57
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So must be Luster, Reflected and I are in this <1% ))
And I.
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Old 10-23-2019, 05:11 PM   #58
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And I. But, if it is really possible to do it with a script, all this does not matter.

ps Ah, no, in the mouse modifiers there is no way to assign something to the right button.
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Old 10-23-2019, 11:54 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Back to the LFO tool:

when changing the phase, I can get some shapes to start correctly, but then of course the other waveforms aren't:

https://i.imgur.com/Xz9ypvd.gif
Well, if you are modulating volume, then starting the saw at the highest *or* lowest point probably makes sense. However, for pan starting at the center makes more sense. I.e. I don't think there is one good starting point for each waveform, so IMHO the current implementation seems OK.
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:04 AM   #60
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Waveforms like sine and triangle do start in the middle and that is 0° phase for them.
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Old 10-24-2019, 06:44 AM   #61
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Since this thread (and pre-release cycle) seems quite MIDI editor mouse modifiers focused I may mention this:
Even empty script linked to mouse modifier move edit cursor.
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Old 10-24-2019, 09:01 AM   #62
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Well, if you are modulating volume, then starting the saw at the highest *or* lowest point probably makes sense. However, for pan starting at the center makes more sense. I.e. I don't think there is one good starting point for each waveform, so IMHO the current implementation seems OK.
It should be consistent though. What Stevie is pointing out with the SAW example is that all the points go from lowest to highest except the first one. Whether you want the point to start from lowest/highest or center, all of the points should be doing that consistently. In the current implementation it isn't.

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Waveforms like sine and triangle do start in the middle and that is 0° phase for them.
Yes, but the baseline "0" point should be the middle of the LFO. In the case of the SAW example posted, the first baseline is at the start of the LFO. All the other baselines are in the middle of the LFO as expected. IMHO this does not seem correct.
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Old 10-24-2019, 09:34 AM   #63
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The issue is the mathematical term "phase". Of course, when you use it, you have to stick with it. But the phase is different for every shape, which is mathematical correct but not very practical/musical.

Let's say I want to modulate the filter cutoff (mapped to CC1) and I want to try different shapes. The filter should start closed and then open (0 -> 1).
Depending on the shape, I would always need to adjust the phase, because not all shapes start at their lowest point.

This is what I would expect as the default value:
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Old 10-24-2019, 10:38 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
This is what I would expect as the default value:
This is what I would expect as well. It is pretty important that the first LFO go from low to high/high to low with baseline in the middle. If the very last LFO gets cut off because the selection is not long enough so be it, but never the first one.

Also, is parametric intended to be sine? If so, I think you should just call it sine. While a sine is one type of parametric curve, there are an almost infinite amount of parametric equations you would never want to use as an LFO. Unless you guys plan on adding some pretty crazy parametric graphing options...

And right now, LFO can only be used as a double click modifier. Any chance this could be a drag modifier ignoring selection? This would also be another use case for a single click modifier for CC. Left click or left drag (separate modifiers) would be a better way of using the LFO tool vs double clicking IMHO.
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:49 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Yes, but the baseline "0" point should be the middle of the LFO. In the case of the SAW example posted, the first baseline is at the start of the LFO. All the other baselines are in the middle of the LFO as expected. IMHO this does not seem correct.
It actually is correct, when you check out most synthesizers they have exactly the same 0° phase for those different waveforms (sine, triangle start at midpoint whereas saw/square start at highest point, well in some cases saw starts at lowest point, but then it's called a ramp) as it is in the LFO devs did. Plus, the behavior of controls in MIDI CC LFO is consistent with the LFO in automation items, so...


Also, "parametric" is not 100% a sinewave, it's an approximation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Stevie_ View Post
Let's say I want to modulate the filter cutoff (mapped to CC1) and I want to try different shapes. The filter should start closed and then open (0 -> 1).
In most cases, on great majority of synths, LFO modulation is by default bipolar (and a lot of synths don't even have unipolar LFO as an option), so it would go above and below your filter cutoff baseline value, so you would need to tweak things either way.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 10-24-2019 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 10-24-2019, 12:36 PM   #66
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It actually is correct, when you check out most synthesizers they have exactly the same 0° phase for those different waveforms (sine, triangle start at midpoint whereas saw/square start at highest point, well in some cases saw starts at lowest point, but then it's called a ramp) as it is in the LFO devs did. Plus, the behavior of controls in MIDI CC LFO is consistent with the LFO in automation items, so...
Ok, but shouldn't it be consistent within the same written LFO? The very first SAW LFO cycle starts from 0 and all the following SAW cycles start from lowest point in Stevie's example. It has to be one or the other and it needs to be the same throughout all the cycles. Again, if the selection isn't long enough for the last full cycle, then cut that one off short mid-cycle. Don't do mid-cycle at the beginning of the written LFO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Also, "parametric" is not 100% a sinewave, it's an approximation.
There really should be a sine option then. It is one of the most commonly used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
In most cases, on great majority of synths, LFO modulation is by default bipolar (and a lot of synths don't even have unipolar LFO as an option), so it would go above and below your filter cutoff baseline value, so you would need to tweak things either way.
This is not really true when we are dealing with CC. If you are using CC as an LFO, most all instruments are going to be able to respond full value 0-127. Not to mention, the LFO tool can be used to draw cycle information for CC as well independent of an actual LFO. So in the CC lane it is as much a drawing tool as it is an LFO. If we were talking about a strict Low Frequency Oscillator cycle below 20Hz used as a control signal, I would grant you the above, but we aren't talking about that in relation to CC.

Last edited by Klangfarben; 10-24-2019 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:39 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Ok, but shouldn't it be consistent within the same written LFO? The very first SAW LFO cycle starts from 0 and all the following SAW cycles start from lowest point in Stevie's example. It has to be one or the other and it needs to be the same throughout all the cycles.
Hmmm wait a minute. Saw LFO starts from the midpoint over here, not from the lowest position, it behaves exactly as parametric and triangle waveforms as far as starting point is concerned (and again, exactly the same as automation item's LFO).
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Old 10-24-2019, 01:48 PM   #68
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Check my 2nd GIF. Parametric and Triangle are aligned to 0, saw isn’t.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:04 PM   #69
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Hmmm wait a minute. Saw LFO starts from the midpoint over here, not from the lowest position, it behaves exactly as parametric and triangle waveforms as far as starting point is concerned (and again, exactly the same as automation item's LFO).
Yep, totally understand that. My question though is in the case of the LFO waveforms you specified, the first iteration is always a half-cycle then, not a full cycle. I can't think of a use case where you would want the first cycle to only be a half-cycle, especially in regards to the CC lane vs a true LFO audio signal - even if that is how automation items are currently implemented. That's going to make for some pretty unwanted effects unless you are adjusting LFO phase every time. For things like filter, volume, etc. you really aren't going to want to ever start those mid-cycle.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:31 PM   #70
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It's not half a cycle, it's a full cycle. Just has a starting point you might've not expected.

I'm not sure this is likely to be fixed, it may be that the automation item LFO and MIDI CC LFO call upon the exact same class to do the processing - just the resulting data/UI drawing is adapted to match the different data types. Both of the editors having the same parameters sort of imply there's a direct link there. And changing the way waveforms are calculated would mess up all existing generated automation items that weren't subsequently tweaked, so that is severely unlikely...

Of course, this is a conjencture (but it sounds quite plausible to me). Devs are free to prove me wrong - but as far as I'm concerned the current implementation is fine.

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Check my 2nd GIF. Parametric and Triangle are aligned to 0, saw isn’t.
The sawtooth in that GIF is exactly where it should be considering where you have the phase, actually - at 25% of its cycle.
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Old 10-24-2019, 02:40 PM   #71
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It's not half a cycle, it's a full cycle. Just has a starting point you might've not expected.
Yes, sorry, I shouldn't have said half-cycle. You are absolutely right. Just that in terms of CC, it is starting in the middle and going through half the values before "resetting" in high-to-low amplitude which is generally what happens when the CC is at its lowest point (e.g. moving from 63 to 0). I'm obviously looking at this in terms of CC values as that is where this tool is being used which is going to have different use cases than how it is being used as audio.

EDIT: I think my main issue is that in relation to this tool's usage in CC lanes, I'm never going to be able to trigger the action and not have to perform an additional edit. I'm going to have to trigger the action and then adjust phase almost every time, which I can only do via moving a slider or typing in a value. There's very few things I can think of where I would want CC to start in the middle of the range besides pitch bend. Everything else, I would want starting from high or low. I'm sure this will improve if it evolves as automation items did and adds the ability to save/load presets, etc.

Last edited by Klangfarben; 10-24-2019 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:13 PM   #72
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I think we need presets for the LFO, yes
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:38 AM   #73
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When an item that is set to timebase=auto-stretch is copy/pasted to a position with different tempo changes, the item's *playback rate* is changed. When Ctrl-dragging to the same new position, playback rate is not changed, and only the covert stretch markers are adjusted. I suggest that the item should only adjust using stretch markers, never playback rate.

In the case of MIDI items, will the new timebase act exactly the same as "Beats (position, length, rate)"?

(Since it is apparently not impossibly difficult to implement new timebase options, I have hope again that the long-awaited and often-requested Timebase=Time (MIDI locked) can also be implemented.)
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Old 10-25-2019, 12:39 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
If I may, I'd like to reiterate this one more time, just to keep the idea floating around.

Some of us expressed that we would like the ability to apply actions, custom actions, and scripts to all the mouse modifiers, not just the few that exist now.

Please........
Yes, please!
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Old 10-25-2019, 02:51 AM   #75
_Stevie_
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I think we need presets for the LFO, yes
Definitely


Wholeheartedly supporting what Julian wrote!

Just recently, I had to tempomap a free performance. It was possible but very convoluted.
And also supporting Tod’s post. I think it would pretty much solve all gripes in this thread.
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Old 10-25-2019, 03:45 AM   #76
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Just recently, I had to tempomap a free performance. It was possible but very convoluted.
Did you encounter this "Create measure" bug that was introduced in a recent update? (Surely I'm not the only user that sometimes tempomaps presto and largo performances, not to mention prestissimo and larghissimo?)

Last edited by juliansader; 10-25-2019 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 10-25-2019, 04:24 PM   #77
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# Notation view: improve y-alignment of notes
Big thanks!!!
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Old 10-25-2019, 05:58 PM   #78
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Did you encounter this "Create measure" bug that was introduced in a recent update? (Surely I'm not the only user that sometimes tempomaps presto and largo performances, not to mention prestissimo and larghissimo?)
I haven't, yet. But I'll check your report and try to repro it.
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Old 10-28-2019, 12:21 AM   #79
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Rubbish like this is why lots of people can't get in to Reaper beyond the basics, myself included. There's a huge void between people who just want to work and people who already know how it works. This forum is literally the only place to come for support on the more complex stuff. I sympathise with the guy, he's obviously taken the trouble to come up with a workflow that works for him, and its being pulled from under him. I reckon I'd be pretty upset too if someone started talking down to me.

Then there are the dev's who, at least on the surface (based on what I can see from this forum) are interacting with a small core of people who have time/care to test the pre-releases, and are responding to that feedback and that feedback alone. If there's evidence to the contrary by all means point it out.
It was a needlessly grumpy and pedantic reply from me - I was trying to quit smoking and not in the best mood - so my apologies to Reflected and everyone else for lowering the tone. Just to be clear - I wasn't actually reacting to the actual issue raised by Reflected, just the general tone of their post, but my reply was still unnecessary.

Regarding the devs only listening to a small core - I am relatively new to this this forum and I reported an issue with the mute/solo actions staggering, which was addressed by Justin himself and partially fixed in the next pre-release. Another example is the issue that I reported earlier in this thread - also fixed in the latest pre-release (Thanks guys!). Have they addressed everything I'd like? Nope (it would be unreasonable to expect them to), but they're definitely listening.
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Old 10-28-2019, 05:13 AM   #80
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No, your reply was bang on the money and WAS necessary, IMHO.
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