Old 05-01-2019, 06:10 PM   #1
nicholas
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Default Your use of Track Wiring View

Sooner or later I'm going to need to document the work-in-progress track wiring view. It would be useful to me to know what use you would be likely to make of this view.

For example, for myself I would mostly continue to use Arrange view and Mixer view for drag and drop routing, using Track Wiring view essentially to gain an overview or bigger picture of a project's routing, more clearly presented (in my view) than the Routing Matrix.

I could also see myself using it for tweaks and adjustments to existing sends/receives from time to time, and that's about it.

It would be really helpful to me to know how others feel about this. Thanks in advance.
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:27 PM   #2
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I'm pretty much in the same boat as you usage wise. In fact, I've been using dev builds of REAPER on my main production rig solely because it is the only version with the wiring view and I use it frequently.

I'm mixing almost exclusively in third order Ambisonics now which uses 16 channels of audio per track. The wiring view is almost essential for me in making sure I haven't made any mistakes with sends and receives. This is VERY easy to do when working with that many channels per track. The wiring view has helped me quickly identify problems on many occasions now.
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:42 PM   #3
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Thanks Dave, I have a suspicion that others will agree with us!
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:41 AM   #4
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this is what the track wiring diagram looks like on my default empty project template:



without the ability to "zoom out," this is nigh unusable. it'd be like if the arrange view could only show 4 tracks at once and you're looking at a 20 track project.

also, note that dragging the bar to move the view horizontal makes the vertical bar jump down

i do love the way it looks otherwise, though
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Old 05-02-2019, 05:42 AM   #5
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What mccrabney said. Also without being able to have master on the right, tracks to the left of it, I kinda find it not really intuitively usable either.
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:01 AM   #6
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Yeah. It definitely needs work. That's why it isn't in final releases yet obviously. Every time a new pre is announced, I'm eagerly hoping that this gets put back on the development table. I'd really love to see it finished soon. This is one of the most useful (it will be more so when further development continues) and exciting features FOR ME, to be added to REAPER in recent times.
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:06 AM   #7
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Yep, after the initial testing I did, I have never even thought of using it for anything. It's terrible to navigate even the default project over here. To be honest, I think routing in Reaper is way powerful and intuitive even without this thing, but that's rather subjective, of course. And I love the concept, mind you. If it only was more convenient to navigate and toggle visibility of elements, this would be really sweet. However, if a hypothetical newcomer learned to route first and foremost in that wiring view, as it is now, and then their projects expand, down the line, so that it gradually becomes painfully unwieldy and ultimately impossible to use, they need to transition to the "traditional" routing anyway - and that might be a tougher pill to swallow than not having wires in the first place :P
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Old 05-02-2019, 07:18 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas View Post
Thanks Dave, I have a suspicion that others will agree with us!
I sure hope so!
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Old 05-03-2019, 03:03 PM   #9
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Nicolas.

My usage "will" be similar to ReaDave's in that it will be for crazy multichannel atmos/ambisonic stuff where with a few improvements it should be much better to do routing in there for surround.

Other uses is for routing between sidechains on synthesizers with inputs as well as outputs but that's more rare for me.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:03 PM   #10
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Thanks guys, much appreciated.
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Old 05-03-2019, 07:21 PM   #11
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I was super excited about this feature until Sai'ke made this awesome routing tool: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?p=2046425

That, combined with mpl's WiredChain script, and I'm not sure I'll need this now.

I collected a lot of suggestions for this feature in another thread, but I can't really tell if Cockos took any of them into consideration. Still appears to have a lot of the same issues as before.
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Old 05-03-2019, 09:22 PM   #12
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How could this whole thing not remind me of the 'Scope' software by 'Sonic Core' (formally 'Creamware'), which comes with their Hardware?

Their paradigm of routing allows to put every signal, be it audio or MIDI, wherever you want it to go to, be it external hardware or internal software inside your computer.

Here is an example:




(As a sidenote: You might notice, that this setting has quite a few elements that are not connected. All I wanna say here is, Sonic Core's audio quality is outstanding, but the software is as shitty and BSOD-prone as it was 20 years ago. The only changes since then are a slightly changed look of the GUI and a lot of additional plug-ins. Maybe you get my anger, 'cos even if you just need drivers for Win7, 8, 10 you don't get them without buying one of their complete software packages! Anyway, that's my prob and off topic here.)

So, calming down and getting further into detail, we can have a look into one of their modules; it's a modular synthesizer, that can be built like hardware modulars, like e.g. those ole (hardware) Moogs, but without their constraints...




The following screenshot shows the same, but with (virtual) cords.



With the red-framed block at the top I wanted to emphasize that you can switch on and off the visibility of cords. You can even 'solo' cord colors and on top of that you can (notice the arrow to the knob) set the tension (or, if you will) the gravity i.e. the weight of the cords. The 'M' switch on the right hand side inside the frame gives the opportunity to keep the cords visible while moving one of the modules inside the modular window.

All of these might be useful features.


-Data
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Old 05-03-2019, 10:02 PM   #13
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To me this "pot of colored spaghetti" looks like a beautiful work of art, but not useful.

-Michael
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Old 05-04-2019, 12:49 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
To me this "pot of colored spaghetti" looks like a beautiful work of art, but not useful.

-Michael
Well yes, Michael,

But that's what modular hardware synths in the 1970s and 1980s looked like as well (at least spaghetti-wise), when their modules (VCOs, LFOs, VCFs, ADSRs and whatnot) were wired together in order to create a certain sound. Not ergonomic, trying to turn a control by digging the hands through all those wires when needing to change a certain parameter, but very powerful in terms of flexibility. Just like Reaper

At least nowadays you can switch cords on or off visibly on screen without changing the circuitry.


-Data
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
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But that's what modular hardware synths in the 1970s and 1980s looked like as well (at least spaghetti-wise), when their modules (VCOs, LFOs, VCFs, ADSRs and whatnot) were wired together in order to create a certain sound.

-Data
Erm..... Some of us are still building Moog Unit modular synthesizers today. This is my current project. The parts are all new in the middle cabinet and the left wing.

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Old 05-04-2019, 04:34 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Erm..... Some of us are still building Moog Unit modular synthesizers today. This is my current project. The parts are all new in the middle cabinet and the left wing.

Awesome!
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Old 05-04-2019, 05:13 AM   #17
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Awesome!
Cheers Nicholas!

This thread inspired me to make a new one about that build....
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=220501
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Old 05-04-2019, 07:14 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReaDave View Post
Erm..... Some of us are still building Moog Unit modular synthesizers today. This is my current project. The parts are all new in the middle cabinet and the left wing.
Great to see that you're sorta taking care that these things are not dying out.

-Data
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Old 05-04-2019, 08:07 AM   #19
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Great to see that you're sorta taking care that these things are not dying out.

-Data
Actually, the modular scene is more popular today than it has ever been. Eurorack is the most popular but the 5U/MU world is thriving too. Even Moog have done reissues of their large format modular systems.

https://www.moogmusic.com/products/moog-modular-systems
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Old 05-04-2019, 09:33 AM   #20
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I didn't know that this scene is still alive.
I must say that I'm impressed, also about what you do there!
I always was keen on having such a system in my younger years, but never could afford one.

At least I can build such systems virtually, but alas, the tactile factor is missing. On the other hand I can switch off the visibility of the cords, once the circuit is set up, so they are out of the way. (Well, a weak comparison, I must admit.)

However: poor me.


-Data
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Old 05-05-2019, 03:24 AM   #21
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havent used it myself,dont want to use a feature thats not full supported in Reaper.

If it will eventually end up in Reaper i hope it will look more like the Sonic core

because i HATE that Spaghetti acccident
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Old 05-10-2019, 02:45 AM   #22
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For something like that:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHWtz66GyrA

I hope I'm not fool but I still believe in one.

Unfortunately current TWV is useless for me.
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Old 05-12-2019, 12:51 PM   #23
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I wanna start by saying WOW, as a professional sound engineer (studio and live) and REAPER user for 10 years I have to say this is just amazing. I had the opportunity to set down and play with it this morning before work and it really made me feel like someone gave me a surprise gift, as weird as that sounds. Track wiring is going to be a very helpful tool for me and I thank everyone involved for getting it happening, and in such an amazing way.

So in a lot of the work I do patching and routing is a big huge deal for me, I do a lot of theatre that requires a gigantic amount of inputs and outputs through Dante. I'm the studio I have a large amount of IO as well, I use to different 32 channel mixers, one digital one analog, as well I have a lot of outboard mic pre's, different patch points in different rooms, snakes, vocal booth, amp room, live room, etc.. so having organized and easily readable routing is incredibly important to me, having this track wiring is like a dream come true as it allows for much better visualization of what is going on.

I would really enjoy the ability to split, move, and name inputs and outputs, that would really mean the world to me. I would also really enjoy the ability to add things like dummy devices, essentially just a box with adkustable input and output count that does nothing except function as a place holder of sorts, audio just passes through like there is nothing there. That would allow me to do things like organize my routing outside of my computer, indicate to me what input is going to which device and the subsequent devices it is passing through before it got to the interface. None of this stuff would actually have any sort of function obviously but the gain would be incredible.

Plugins being visually represented as separate device of course is a big one but I'm sure other people have covered that already. Allowing the use of images would be incredibly helpful as well, I'm sure other people have mentioned that as well. Obviously I would like to be able to drag and drop inputs and outputs to channels simply, the ability to also have multiple inputs go to one channel would be very useful but I'm sure you guys are already working on that stuff. Coloring would be absolutely amazing.

I'm going to have some more time soon take play with it more, I only had about 5 minutes to screw around or so. I just want to thank you guys again, this is so amazing!!!!
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Old 05-12-2019, 01:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
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What mccrabney said. Also without being able to have master on the right, tracks to the left of it, I kinda find it not really intuitively usable either.
yep signal flow should default to L->R and/or Top->Bottom (apologies to folks from R->L text-flow language countries!)
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Old 05-12-2019, 06:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audbol View Post
Plugins being visually represented as separate device of course is a big one but I'm sure other people have covered that already. Allowing the use of images would be incredibly helpful as well, I'm sure other people have mentioned that as well. Obviously I would like to be able to drag and drop inputs and outputs to channels simply, the ability to also have multiple inputs go to one channel would be very useful but I'm sure you guys are already working on that stuff. Coloring would be absolutely amazing.
Maybe (and maybe someone has written this already) this feature should look like a hardware patchbay, but with all the advantages a software can offer, like coloring and so on..

-Data
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Old 05-12-2019, 09:49 PM   #26
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Quote:
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this feature should look like a hardware patchbay,
To me this would be huge shortcoming in favor of utmost legacy. But with age 65 I am obviously too young to see the huge benefit of legacy.

-Michael
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:05 AM   #27
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sigh--if this is the best cockos have to offer...then..well..really?
think am being kind by declaring this is implementation fugly+ practically illogical+unintuitive.. =another step to loosing faith in the developers abilities.


having used reason patch/cv cabling system for years= it's the best. imo.

and if cockos like practical,functional operational daw--then this wiring view needs another total reathink (imo)
nice try,but the goal posts are in the middle----not between the end post and corner flag guyz!!
come on...this is where cockos should be shining--practicality+design.... >?
if t.w.view stays this way-- i would certainly never use it..at all..fugly.. lol
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Old 05-13-2019, 03:40 AM   #28
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I guess I should have asked for peoples' potential use, keeping in mind it's still W.I.P.

I guess I've jumped in with the question too soon.
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Old 05-13-2019, 04:59 AM   #29
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Quote:
I guess I should have asked for peoples' potential use, keeping in mind it's still W.I.P.

I guess I've jumped in with the question too soon.

heh- tbh,i think the questions and reasonings should come right now..when is a better time than now? lol..anywayzz
if reaper is going to use this system is has to be spot on eh..the only purpose of mentioning reason is a point to consider as all are..ph totally designed their whole product around this system,and i think they kinda got close to perfecting it..others have tried to copy/duplicate because as mentioned--it's a logical way for users to gain use of logical routing setups-- it came from studio methods of real physical cables,so the idea of making that a seemless transition into a visible,workable form,was no small feat..but it works..very well for years..ok.


because of the way reaper works--this is no easy tasking..and to make it practical,for all 'level' of users needs,would be a work of art...if accomplished in a sensible manor.. i wish cockos best of luck with this..actually would use a better system,if it works reliably+visibly logical + no brainer uses...

the power+ possible potentials of routing is immense..most people who actually knock the system,generally are the users who least understand the concept or methods used to achieve greater sonic..results..?
it's all relative..but this is a core,foundation thing...not a "oh,it's time to stick this into the programme now" kinda thing...eh>?
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:00 AM   #30
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wot!


no replies?

lol... are people afraid to share their points-of-view?
= guess i better be carefull..2 x banned (for expressing opinions so far)
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:21 AM   #31
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I didn't read your post

No punctuation nor capitalization in the text just makes my eyes glace over, maybe I'm not the only one
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Old 05-14-2019, 03:35 AM   #32
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oH-sO tHe onlY waY tO geT A rePly- is by using CAPITAL LETTERS!
wOw. that's weaker than the wiring view m8..lmao.. there WAS punctuation..happier now Jack Winter?
what's YOUR OPinioN about the wiRing view m8?

can any body actually figure out this gif>?



no? not even the guy who made it?

come on...this is not working..or,is it>?
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:21 AM   #33
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lolz--see how guys like Jack Winter--literally crawled out from under a rock--to come personally insult a post 1 made-- ban? mods? no,coz jack's 1 of the good guyz eh...the reaper fan club goon squad..rofl...has to try weak attacks as they have no actual feedback on strong points that are made..right jack?


look at how the "good guy reaperite forum fan club" gangs together,regular--to try bash innocent posters..who dare step over an imaginary forum line..who dare be different in the methods..who dare be different to the 'bs narrative' ...the atomists.....the robods actually worship this crap.. lol--

some users are actually finding+ see faults or weaknesses in this reaper programme-- and get shot down.totally ignored,or bullied by these a.h. for pointing things out.



wake up..please..quicker!!
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:23 AM   #34
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we already said it needs to be able to zoom out.

in one clear, easy to read sentence
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:41 AM   #35
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huh? -- looking desper bratly for a mod to ban...right?
how weak is that m8?
stay on topic-target..
imo this wiring view does not work right now...and if cockos can't see this then=specsavers?
everything seems an...afterthought?...all afterthoughts--instead of pre conceptions..? sighz..lol
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:43 AM   #36
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Well I didn't come out of the woodwork to insult, it was the plain truth that I started to read the post but just gave up due to the formatting

The quote thing kind of sucks, maybe he gets banned again... If I was a moderator here I'd probably ban for doing that..
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:46 AM   #37
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imo this wiring view does not work right now...
You are aware that it's a pre feature that was started on but not yet completed, right?
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:50 AM   #38
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lolz--of course you would jack.. anything you cannot work out or accept= deletions..get rid of it..ban. this IS a sign of weakness--
you came to post nothing more than jabs--nothing on topic?
i posted some on topic stuff...maybe you can try as well?


btw @ mccrabney- i've seen your posts on this forum-- and tbh reason would be a much much better fit for your production m8 (thats honest opinion) it has all you wanted + need for what you ask for...samplers..etcetc-- your literally flogging a dead horse here using reaper as it's not made for that type of production style your trying to get down.. ok
and that's not being biased--honest view on that..i use both reaper+reason for the same games m8.
see how i just helped you out m8? lolz.
silence.now the storm has passed... no shitstorm though--just force of nature..
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Old 05-14-2019, 04:57 AM   #39
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lolz--of course you would jack.. anything you cannot work out or accept= deletions..get rid of it..ban. this IS a sign of weakness--
you came to post nothing more than jabs--nothing on topic?
i posted some on topic stuff...maybe you can try as well?
I have never banned anyone on this forum, nor have I deleted posts.

I just tried to give you an honest feedback that the way you write might cause people to skip over the post. At least it really doesn't invite me to read more than a few words..

I have no opinion on the track wiring view yet, as it's obviously not finished...

Now I'm going back to lurking in this thread, so don't expect anything more from me on the topic of the wiring view
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Old 05-14-2019, 05:05 AM   #40
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Now I'm going back to lurking in this thread, so don't expect anything more from me on the topic of the wiring view

wow- how creative... ^

this is also why stuff stays broken and mainly unusable..users not honestly feeding back on problematic programming or devices.
i'm slowly comming to the conclusion that cockos has been winging it for years--and their dsp knowledge is clearly lacking..or clearly not showing in it's fullest potential or glory just yet.
yay--let's all lurk.
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