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Old 04-25-2018, 01:52 PM   #1
azslow3
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Default USB/Wireless(not WiFi) REAPER controller... you have it but never used that way

Imagine you can have a small (from 10x6cm or even less), light (~100g), possibly wireless (without WiFi) controller with 2 (or a bit more) physical buttons and one endless encoder with push function. And these controls can be assign to Reaper actions. And that controller cost under $10.

Or may be you want 100 buttons, possibly wireless, controller. Still for around $10.

You probably already have both!

These devices are mouse and keyboard. The REAPER extension is called "AZ Not" (... a mouse/keyboard).

To avoid confusion:
* the mouse/keyboard device used with "AZ Not" will no longer work as normal, it will work as a RAPER dedicated MIDI Control Surface.
* other mouse/keyboard will continue to work as usual.

Windows only, free to use, closed source extension.

The first alpha, not well tested yet
http://www.azslow.com/index.php/topic,423.0.html

Last edited by azslow3; 08-01-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:59 PM   #2
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YES!

Funny, someone developed just that for RME's interfaces. He's selling it for 30€...

Of course, in that case it's a bit of competition for RME's ARC (Advanced Remote Control), which has far more buttons, but is USB connected.

I was thinking ESP8266 DIY myself, but I have far too many projects on my plate already
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:50 PM   #3
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I want the guts of this in a way that I can stick it in a pedalboard so I can have an easier wireless midi pedalboard
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Old 04-25-2018, 07:43 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by cyrano View Post
YES!

Funny, someone developed just that for RME's interfaces. He's selling it for 30€...

Of course, in that case it's a bit of competition for RME's ARC (Advanced Remote Control), which has far more buttons, but is USB connected.

I was thinking ESP8266 DIY myself, but I have far too many projects on my plate already
show the people?

to OP - yeh sure ..
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Old 04-25-2018, 10:25 PM   #5
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My colleagues have also proposed to ask electronic department to build some micro-controller based unit.

But my plan is simpler...

Everyone is using several buttons + encoder "controllers" every day. The "device" is available in any store, color, size and shape. The trick is just to use it "unusual" way, as dedicated DAW controller. Microsoft has made that a bit more tricky that it could be, but I have checked yesterday that it is possible
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:20 PM   #6
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Imagine you can have a small (from 10x6cm or even less), light (~100g), possibly wireless (without WiFi) controller with 2 (or a bit more) physical buttons and one endless encoder with push function. And these controls (may be also gestures like long press and/or double press) can be assign to Reaper actions. And that controller cost under $10.

Do you think you have a use case for that?
it sounds like a mouse?
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Old 04-25-2018, 11:47 PM   #7
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it sounds like a mouse?

I digged the Internet several times in attempt to find existing solutions for usual devices as controllers. For some reason that is not widely used. At most Joysticks/Gamepads are supported (btw also wireless and works fine, I have created full Sonar accessible control preset with one of such units, but "form factor" is not want I need now, too big and too "toy like").
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:36 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
show the people?
I've got nothing to show. I said I was thinking about it.

The ESP8266 seems like a good candidate, because it has on-board Wifi, it's a fairly powerful 32 bit RISC processor with 512 MB ram and a resourceful community. And it's only like 9$ or so.

There's an example of an OSC to MIDI controller here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMd6sPLynBo
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Old 04-26-2018, 08:44 AM   #9
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I've got nothing to show. I said I was thinking about it.

The ESP8266 seems like a good candidate, because it has on-board Wifi, it's a fairly powerful 32 bit RISC processor with 512 MB ram and a resourceful community. And it's only like 9$ or so.

There's an example of an OSC to MIDI controller here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMd6sPLynBo
Or ESP32 which has BTLE built in (and 10 touch sensor pins) but it's API/Toolchain isn't quite as mature as the ESP8266 yet (32 is dual core though!). I'm fairly buried in ESP8266/32 tech if anyone has questions - I've been working with them for a few years now.

I just had a discussion here recently about how it wouldn't be "that" difficult to use ESP32 or 8266 to achieve this. Even WiFi is doable.... because the 8266 can be the client/server and/or an access point taking the user's network completely out of the picture (by the controllers just talking to each other on their own network), or even using websockets which is about as near real time as you can get over the air and so on.

I haven't gotten interested enough (or have the time) to do this, but I'm certain someone could create the mother of all wireless controllers this way, if they spend the R&D time. There has never been a better time in history to do this, parts are dirt cheap and the tech is there.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:29 PM   #10
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I figured OSC over Wifi would be easier than serial MIDI over BT. But then, I'm a BT virgin...

Metering, 16 bit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nz4eakfhJQ

Accelerometer:

http://apps.incalcando.com/2017/05/23/1075/

OSC in Reaper:

https://hexler.net/docs/touchosc-setup-reaper

X-OSC, ready to run, with a built-in webserver, £160.00 (ex. VAT):

http://x-io.co.uk/x-osc/

With Junxion:

http://steim.org/product/junxion/

...
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:39 PM   #11
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I figured OSC over Wifi would be easier than serial MIDI over BT. But then, I'm a BT virgin...
Got it, I wasn't even pinning down a protocol really, whatever works better/easier - BT is much more a PIA IMHO, since you have to deal with all the capabilities etc. And I've seen the ESP8266 http stack reach ~100 yards IIRC.
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:04 PM   #12
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If it’s bt, wouldn’t we still have the issue of needing junk like midiberry and loop midi to even see it in reaper?
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Old 04-26-2018, 02:51 PM   #13
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If it’s bt, wouldn’t we still have the issue of needing junk like midiberry and loop midi to even see it in reaper?
I don't think so (because my idea was BT was between transmitter/receiver only, then what the computer sees is just a USB MIDI device) but I'm less concerned with it being BT tbh as I can most likely get very near realtime using Wifi. As I tried to explain in the previous thread a couple months back. For example the MIDI controller I built a couple months ago uses an Arduino the size of two stamps and it advertises itself as a MIDI device so I bypassed all that extra fiddling...

https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...2&postcount=61

In the case for wireless, it's similar except you need one transmitting and one receiving wirelessly and the one receiving is the same one that advertises as a USB/MIDI device to the computer. There are some caveats and R&D but totally possible as far as I'm concerned.

To be clear about the WiFi part, that's between the devices themselves, there is no network or user router involved, it's literally the sending and receiving devices (again the size of a stamp) that have full B/G/N wireless stacks that can just communicate with each other.
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Old 04-26-2018, 10:39 PM   #14
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What you are going to use as a controller?
Binding something as MIDI/HID/OSC is one thing, but to be useful that something should have physical controls.

X-Touch already exists as a full scale controller with Ethernet/WiFi.
And there are puc+ / MT-BT01 for BT.

Several buttons + DIY transceiver + accu + box + debugging seems like a lot just to make these buttons wireless and also way over proposed by this thread budget.

The solution I am writing about is way simpler:
* take any mouse (wired / wireless)
* explain Windows it is NOT a mouse (technically tricky, but there is "one click" utility for that)
* put csurf Reaper extension in place (that part I am writing now...)
* assign actions
* make music
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Old 04-26-2018, 11:00 PM   #15
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What you are going to use as a controller?
I'd be building it (I've done this type stuff before) but the above was a side discussion OT from your idea.
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Old 04-27-2018, 02:22 AM   #16
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Make one for eventide h8000 and take my money for both !!!
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:59 AM   #17
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Make one for eventide h8000 and take my money for both !!!
I am not sure what you mean.
According to the documentation (to be clear, I have just looked at the picture of this device, I do not have it), it has MIDI IO. And it support program dumping/loading, program switching as well as operating all controls on the front panel throw MIDI (but it does not transfer the display content... so it is not possible to make a "remote front panel" using MIDI).
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Old 04-27-2018, 07:01 AM   #18
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Funny, someone developed just that for RME's interfaces. He's selling it for 30€...
Have a link by chance?
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:45 PM   #19
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Have a link by chance?
Just a link to the post:

https://www.forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=27029

There's a link to youtube vid in it
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Old 04-27-2018, 03:57 PM   #20
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Got it, I wasn't even pinning down a protocol really, whatever works better/easier - BT is much more a PIA IMHO, since you have to deal with all the capabilities etc. And I've seen the ESP8266 http stack reach ~100 yards IIRC.
Distance isn't important. Connecting to an existing network is. BT, USB or whatever is limitied to controlling one host.

Once you're on the network, controlling multiple machines [NOT simultaneously] is just one button-push away. And it's OS independent...

Besides, someone in South Africa did a connection over 1 km. Out in the desert, with two ESP8266 modules.
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:12 PM   #21
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Distance isn't important. Connecting to an existing network is. BT, USB or whatever is limitied to controlling one host.
That's my point, you get distance *and* the fact there is no existing network to worry about. I've already tested this as far as WiFi'ing them with each other, it's plenty fast and reliable because the microcontrollers literally have nothing else to do.

The only concern would be interference from other WiFi networks but that would be a non-issue since we aren't talking actually using large distances. For example, I also use these for my home automation and my motion/light sensors for light switches can turn the lights on when I enter the room in 100ms or less and that's while on my home network and taking 3-4 hops through various endpoints and two servers. Two 8266s talking only to each other are far faster than that.

I really wish I had my own use case and time, I'd mock up proof of concept and demonstrate - or you can check out cnlohr's YT channel where he's has a real time oscilloscope demo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISbmQTbjDI Keep in mind, my stuff above isn't even using web sockets.
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:58 PM   #22
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I will wait and see if this goes anywhere, if it does I will be interested.

Till then bye.
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Old 04-28-2018, 05:54 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
What you are going to use as a controller?
Anything. Buttons, faders, joysticks (also pots, but two of them). The only thing I haven't figured out, is 3D. Height. There doesn't seem to be an obvious candidate for it. A 3D mouse exists, but is rather impractical, as you have to lift it to get height feedback. Pressure sensitive touch could be used, but I've ruled out touch as way too expensive and besides, most people already have a phone or a pad.

Quote:
The solution I am writing about is way simpler:
* take any mouse (wired / wireless)
* explain Windows it is NOT a mouse (technically tricky, but there is "one click" utility for that)
* put csurf Reaper extension in place (that part I am writing now...)
* assign actions
* make music
I've tried that, albeit on a Mac. It's very easy to convince the OS to do something other with it. I've used the power button on a Macbook as start/stop for recording, fi. But not all software can be controlled that way, because you need kb codes that aren't in use. And mostly, these are ignored in the software. Of course, Reaper could be the exception.

One of the demands I've set myself, is that the controller should work with most software, not only Reaper, but also TotalMix, or even Audacity.

The hardware I've got lined up:

- An ADR digital fader. One fader, one pot, 6 buttons with a LED each.
- A 16 channel Tascam with 16 motorized faders, 16 encoders and 48 buttons. I would also like to add 16 meters. And I'm dreaming about 16 digitally controlled preamps. But if there are preamps in it, it's no longer a controller

Those are about the two extremes.

The first should be easy, even with the limited GPIO of the ESP8266. Two AD's, 6 digital in, 6 digital out.

The second one depends on how much I can recuperate from the Tascam SX1 if it turns out to be impossible to get it reliably working...
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Old 04-28-2018, 06:11 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
That's my point, you get distance *and* the fact there is no existing network to worry about. I've already tested this as far as WiFi'ing them with each other, it's plenty fast and reliable because the microcontrollers literally have nothing else to do.
I never worry about networks. They just work.

And it seems a waste to use 2 ESP's as one can do the job. Besides, I want to connect to an existing network, not have yet another one to add to the congestion.

Quote:
The only concern would be interference from other WiFi networks but that would be a non-issue since we aren't talking actually using large distances. For example, I also use these for my home automation and my motion/light sensors for light switches can turn the lights on when I enter the room in 100ms or less and that's while on my home network and taking 3-4 hops through various endpoints and two servers. Two 8266s talking only to each other are far faster than that.
Of course they are faster. But it seems a waste to use a 32 bit CPU with 512 MB ram for something that can be done with a Wireless 433 MHz serial chip. (800 MHz in the US, I think)

Quote:
I really wish I had my own use case and time, I'd mock up proof of concept and demonstrate - or you can check out cnlohr's YT channel where he's has a real time oscilloscope demo... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ISbmQTbjDI Keep in mind, my stuff above isn't even using web sockets.
It's the hardware that takes most time to debug. Serial over TCP/IP shouldn't take much work. Antennas. Power supply. That kind of unexpected wizardry...
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Old 04-28-2018, 07:44 AM   #25
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I never worry about networks. They just work.

And it seems a waste to use 2 ESP's as one can do the job. Besides, I want to connect to an existing network, not have yet another one to add to the congestion.
For the overall subject of the thread, we want the devices talking to themselves only - albeit I'm far off topic (apologies azslow3!). It would basically be impossible for what I'm speaking of to "congest" anything. That's backed up by my own production testing for almost 3 years now.

Quote:
Of course they are faster. But it seems a waste to use a 32 bit CPU with 512 MB ram for something that can be done with a Wireless 433 MHz serial chip. (800 MHz in the US, I think)
8266 isn't 32 bit or 512MB ram and we're talking 3.00 USD each, can be had for even less so that's a whole $6.00 for to (think can instead of can't ). You are thinking ESP32 but even then it's well worth it for a one off. If this was something someone was going to produce, they'd just buy the raw SMD chip and fab their own board which is also in that 3.00 each range but much less if more than a few.

Quote:
It's the hardware that takes most time to debug. Serial over TCP/IP shouldn't take much work. Antennas. Power supply. That kind of unexpected wizardry...
It's easy really but this isn't for beginners nor was my entrance intended to be; IOW if someone with experience such as ours can't debug these, they need someone building for them.

I just designed these from the ground up then fabbed so I can purpose them for whatever I wish. The copper colored ones are the ones I designed and etched myself but then I had them fabbed professionally for $3 each so now I just "grab one and go" when I have a new idea - basically solder the SMD parts and ESP is maybe 1/2 hour tops:



I have them updating over the air now so I can update the code and deploy it without having to access the device. This could totally be done for a gtr pedal board thingy, I don't have the interest/need but if you guys keep naysaying I'm just going to show up with one, one day.
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:12 AM   #26
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Anything. Buttons, faders, joysticks (also pots, but two of them).
for connecting "anything", there are plenty of normal computers, window/linux, f.e. in TV Stick format (USB+Wifi and HDMI for setting up). Arm based sticks are dirty cheap... I plan to dig in one of them, after I replace it with new one in my TV setup (current is not smooth for FHD and bloated Amazon app).

Quote:
I've tried that, albeit on a Mac. It's very easy to convince the OS to do something other with it. I've used the power button on a Macbook as start/stop for recording, fi. But not all software can be controlled that way, because you need kb codes that aren't in use. And mostly, these are ignored in the software. Of course, Reaper could be the exception.
I am not sure what you have tried, I am going to convert all messages to MIDI. So "kb codes" will not overlap with "normal" (not dedicated) keyboard.
BTW since I am testing with mouse AND keyboard, I think my plug-in will support both.

Quote:
One of the demands I've set myself, is that the controller should work with most software, not only Reaper, but also TotalMix, or even Audacity.
I prefer to not mix a "controller" as a device and its "translation" for the target. Universal is not always good, f.e. HID was though as universal (any device should describe all its controls, even which part of the human body operates it and with which effort, what it was thought to be used for, etc.). Yet in practice, there is "Mouse" driver, there is "Keyboard" driver and there is "Game" driver... game over. Apart from mentioned program for $70, I do not see many "universal" end application HID drivers.

Quote:
- An ADR digital fader. One fader, one pot, 6 buttons with a LED each.
So Presonus Faderport
Quote:
- A 16 channel Tascam with 16 motorized faders, 16 encoders and 48 buttons. I would also like to add 16 meters. And I'm dreaming about 16 digitally controlled preamps. But if there are preamps in it, it's no longer a controller
If you look for related thread(s), most problematic part is not getting the signal into computer, but let this signal make something reasonable in particular application, f.e. Reaper.

F.e. I plan 2-3 actions per button and scroll button to have 2 "encoders" action. A mouse is a mouse. That is the logic of the program which defines how powerful the controller is.
With Sonar, 2 left pedals of by DP do almost endless number of different things (I have several configurations).

There is Ableton Push 2, with nice encoders, pads, LEDs, even color display! Everything is documented and can be used by everyone (btw with the same method I will use for mouse). Have you seen many full scale usable solutions for it, other then for Ableton?

Binding antic devices as DAW controllers is a lot of fun. I have done that with 2 mixers (old Yamaha and old Tascam, for other, I do not have any...) and Sonar. Was that fun? Yes. Practically useful? Not really...
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:34 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
For the overall subject of the thread, we want the devices talking to themselves only - albeit I'm far off topic (apologies azslow3!).
Please do not apologies. If this thread can crystallize into reasonable definition what good controlling solution (hardware/software) for Reaper should be, I will be more then happy

The "final destination" of my mentioned (the second) tiny sub-projects is the next incarnation of AZ Controller. This time for Reaper (or dual), more user friendly, more powerful, with brighter hardware support (+HID, +XCTRL, build-in motor faders real time steering, etc.).
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Old 04-28-2018, 07:24 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
For the overall subject of the thread, we want the devices talking to themselves only - albeit I'm far off topic (apologies azslow3!). It would basically be impossible for what I'm speaking of to "congest" anything. That's backed up by my own production testing for almost 3 years now.
I'm talking radio congestion. I already have 2 wireless networks of my own. Add 42 from neighbours. I also plan on using this elsewhere and have done some testing in a few venues. These all seem to have 5, 6... networks. Wifi for the crew. Wifi for visitors. Wifi for DMX. Wifi for the PA...

It's a real problem.

I've tested the network part with an old Raspberry. No onboard Wifi, but for test purposes very useable. Just a bit on the expensive side to my taste, for a simple thing like this. Don't need HDMI, fi.

Quote:
8266 isn't 32 bit or 512MB ram and we're talking 3.00 USD each, can be had for even less so that's a whole $6.00 for to (think can instead of can't ). You are thinking ESP32 but even then it's well worth it for a one off. If this was something someone was going to produce, they'd just buy the raw SMD chip and fab their own board which is also in that 3.00 each range but much less if more than a few.
I Looked it up. It's 32 bit allright, but far less ram. Kbytes. Not Mbytes. Probably got confused thinking RPi. Sorry.

But it's power I'm thinking of. Everything should be portable. Or at least transportable. And battery fed, even if only for backup. Less is more.

Quote:
It's easy really but this isn't for beginners nor was my entrance intended to be; IOW if someone with experience such as ours can't debug these, they need someone building for them.

I just designed these from the ground up then fabbed so I can purpose them for whatever I wish. The copper colored ones are the ones I designed and etched myself but then I had them fabbed professionally for $3 each so now I just "grab one and go" when I have a new idea - basically solder the SMD parts and ESP is maybe 1/2 hour tops:



I have them updating over the air now so I can update the code and deploy it without having to access the device. This could totally be done for a gtr pedal board thingy, I don't have the interest/need but if you guys keep naysaying I'm just going to show up with one, one day.
There's enough of these designs out there that should be easy enough, off the shelf, useable for anyone capable of soldering. Programming them should be easy.

Brainstorming about it is all I do, for now. Building an ambi mic is taking up all my time. It seems simple enough, until you start it. Need to study a LOT of background physics.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:36 PM   #29
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It took a while... The first post is updated. I will test it myself next day, but if someone want to check how that works, the instructions and the extension are there.

Special thanks to Cyrano and Karbomusic for pointing me toward ESP!
8266 + MAX7219 in a nice wooden box is already turning "Hello Behringer!" on top of X-Air. As I have mentioned, I was looking for the second half of my Conference project, and that looks promising so far. I think for the bigger room I will use IR/RF remote with ESP instead of mouse throw computer. So a mouse for DAW will be the only result of my (I must admit not so smooth and not so fast as I have though) experience with USB programming under Windows.
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Old 07-05-2018, 12:49 PM   #30
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8266 + MAX7219 in a nice wooden box is already turning "Hello Behringer!" on top of X-Air. As I have mentioned, I was looking for the second half of my Conference project, and that looks promising so far. I think for the bigger room I will use IR/RF remote with ESP instead of mouse throw computer. So a mouse for DAW will be the only result of my (I must admit not so smooth and not so fast as I have though) experience with USB programming under Windows.
Excellent!
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:16 AM   #31
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Well, the reaction on this REAPER extension is usual reaction on my Control Surfaces ideas. I mean no reaction

After playing a bit, I had to extend the functionality to cover own needs. So, targeting "jam with myself sitting 2-3m away from comp", my current assignments are the following:
* left click - play/pause
* left+right - play/stop
* left+middle - record
* middle - mute
* right - solo
* right+left - RTZ
* right+middle - metronome on/off
* wheel - volume
* pushed wheel - change track (with track name audition, I sit aways from the monitor)
* left+wheel - jog
* right+wheel - Master volume
* right+pushed wheel - playrate

Not so small functionality list for such small device, is not it?
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:46 AM   #32
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Not wanting to discourage you - I am still lurking & interested. But M. waddingtons long-running epic has had my attention for a LONG time & I suspect others see that project as a really good wide-ranging solution.

Keep at it - depending on your published results, you could find yourself getting more interest/support as this matures.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:33 AM   #33
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Not wanting to discourage you - I am still lurking & interested. But M. waddingtons long-running epic has had my attention for a LONG time & I suspect others see that project as a really good wide-ranging solution.
M. Waddingtons extension and "Not a mouse" do not intersect, except they both target controlling REAPER from some hardware. This plug-in works with mouse only, m. Waddingtons plug-in does not work with mouse.

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Keep at it - depending on your published results, you could find yourself getting more interest/support as this matures.
"Not a mouse" is technically finished. It will not "mature", except more tests it works without problems.

I just hope someone who needs my staff can find it. People are discussing Tranzport, Faderport, X-Touch One, Web and OSC apps. May be some of them, as myself, do not really need the "full power" of traditional surface solutions and can profit from the size, price, connectivity and battery live of a mouse. I know many people use wireless computer keyboards for that, mouse is just a smaller alternative (and it has an encoder...). The problem is that a mouse, unlike keyboards, with default behavior is useless without display. "Not a Mouse" void that limitation.

Back in time, MIDI key bindings in Cakewalk was used. That approach allowed to share 25-88 keys with the same number of control buttons. So I have made the same for REAPER and I still think that is a good idea for DP. But I have found that I am completely alone with such opinion. May be I am also alone with my opinion about mouse. And I see no problem to be not in the "main stream"
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:41 AM   #34
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May be I am also alone with my opinion about mouse. And I see no problem to be not in the "main stream"
Certainly nothing wrong with that! There are plenty of things I code and build for my own use such as my three knob midi controller (mentioned earlier in the thread) which is on GitHub - anyone is free to use it to build their own but I'm not losing any sleep whatsoever whether they do or not since it serves my needs just fine.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:44 AM   #35
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Windows only
Well, that would be a show stopper there.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:47 AM   #36
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Well, that would be a show stopper there.
Well for like 3 of you.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:46 AM   #37
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Well, that would be a show stopper there.
Apple lovers are not looking for cheap solutions in general, they like expensive staff, with 1 year warranty and declared obsolete/incompatible after 2-3 years. Free 40kb program for $1 device which will work next 10-20 years is "no go" by design
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:08 AM   #38
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Apple lovers are not looking for cheap solutions in general, they like expensive staff, with 1 year warranty and declared obsolete/incompatible after 2-3 years. Free 40kb program for $1 device which will work next 10-20 years is "no go" by design
This Apple lover grew up with their professional products that would last 20 years, stay compatible, and give a lot of bang for the buck. So... we may be in the last chapter of Apple and OSX right here today but Windows sure isn't a reasonable option when you've been used to OSX for so long and it still delivers at a high level.

I suppose I don't fit into either camp at present but I'm always looking for cheap solutions. Downgrading to Windows OS would not be such a solution either.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:14 AM   #39
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This Apple lover grew up with their professional products that would last 20 years ----- Downgrading to Windows OS would not be such a solution either.
I think you took the bait, the clear answer is there is no good or evil in that better/worse regard and the least informed are those who think there is (which is so 1995 btw).
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:52 AM   #40
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This Apple lover grew up with their professional products that would last 20 years, stay compatible, and give a lot of bang for the buck. So... we may be in the last chapter of Apple and OSX right here today but Windows sure isn't a reasonable option when you've been used to OSX for so long and it still delivers at a high level.
Just to note, I am in not in the lager of general Apple haters. Apple had many excellent ideas how to make things simple and working. From usable PCs up to usable smartphones and tablets, with OS and program written in codes. And they have recognized when it is time to re-invent Unix.

But complete closeness of the eco-system is error prone.
I was working on an experiment which was solely based on Apple. I have joined it at the time of OS9/PowerPC to OSX/Intel transition. That is about "last 20 years and stay compatible".

At the end of the day, I still can run almost any DOS/Windows software which I have ever used. And I still can run any Linux software I have ever used. Looking at incompatibility even between different OS-X versions, the same can not be written about Apple.

Finally, I have Dell XPS now. Stupidly constructed device. I will not buy Dell again (at least not in the near future). And there is no problem, there is a big choice. But what to do in case you have an Apple and you do not like it? Change "the planet"? Wait till they make it better?

BTW I use Linux, except for music and games.
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