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01-17-2020, 09:50 AM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Getting distortion no matter what fix
Hi. I have tried this test with my (expensive) monitors and also with my go to headphones here. The only constant is Reaper, and my audio interface. Can someone tell me why this happens.
Is this something in Reaper I can set different with respect to metering and routing or are you telling me my sound card is crapping out randomly with low frequencies?
Session 1
Master Meter: peak @ -13dB and RMS @ 0dB
Sine Pitch: G1 @50Hz
No distortion at any monitoring volume from quiet to loud as hell.
Session 2
Master Meter: peak @ -9dB (and louder) and RMS @ +4dB
Sine Pitch: G1 @50Hz
Insanely dirty and crunchy distortion coming out of my pro monitors and my headphones both.
Thanks guys.
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01-17-2020, 10:42 AM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
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If you have bad audio cables, that sort of thing can happen.
You might also want to mention specifics: your audio interface, how you're connecting things, what your driver settings are, what you changed recently before you noticed this, does this happen with any other audio player, etc.
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01-17-2020, 10:52 AM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters
If you have bad audio cables, that sort of thing can happen.
You might also want to mention specifics: your audio interface, how you're connecting things, what your driver settings are, what you changed recently before you noticed this, does this happen with any other audio player, etc.
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I just finished running around the studio with details I think audio geeks will enjoy sinking their teeth into. Get this.
It IS Reaper related.
I've tried the following interfaces and at a microscopically small gain knob setting on the interfaces themselves, along with Sony headphones. Distortion occurs at the lowest volumes on the sound card knobs. It's Reaper.
Motu M4
Motu M2
USBPre 2
All headphones and interfaces distort with the audio settings I list above. Something inside reaper and reasynth and basic sine wave testing is clipping something. How do I find what this is? I'm going mental. It's nowhere near 0dBfs. We're talking clipping sounding crunch at like -9dB peaks. Around 50Hz as mentioned above.
Thank you.
I use the best cables. They cost $10000 a piece. Jk.
I'll try switching those out but I'm pretty sure they're not defective.
VLC standlone has no such distortion with a sine sweep from what I can tell.
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01-17-2020, 10:56 AM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
Session 1
Master Meter: peak @ -13dB and RMS @ 0dB
Sine Pitch: G1 @50Hz
...
Session 2
Master Meter: peak @ -9dB (and louder) and RMS @ +4dB
Sine Pitch: G1 @50Hz
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I don't understand these numbers. Average levels (RMS) can't go higher than peaks. Also, if only sine waves, RMS values should be about 3dB lower than peaks.
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01-17-2020, 11:00 AM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
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RE xpander's comments, you can configure an offset in the RMS meter. I do this (per Bob Katz's K-System recommendation) to align 0dB RMS to -14 dBFS.
So possibly lowellben has applied an offset that he didn't mention. Or (equally possible) he may have inadvertently switched the RMS/Peak numbers in his post, and dBFS is +4, which would definitely give the distortion that is being observed.
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Last edited by lunker; 01-17-2020 at 11:07 AM.
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01-17-2020, 11:01 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander
I don't understand these numbers. Average levels (RMS) can't go higher than peaks. Also, if only sine waves, RMS values should be about 3dB lower than peaks.
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Maybe related to what lunker said because those numbers make zero sense to me. That said, 50hz is damn low, it takes way more power to create and can rattle or expose weaknesses in about anything... like amps and speakers.
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01-17-2020, 11:09 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander
I don't understand these numbers. Average levels (RMS) can't go higher than peaks. Also, if only sine waves, RMS values should be about 3dB lower than peaks.
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Of course. I was just copy and pasting the exact numbers Reaper showed me. At the bottom of my meter there is a +5.7 value. Clearly, the number on TOP of the master meter is the peak value, no? That says -6.1dB while the bottom of the master shows +5.7. I'd be happy to show you a screenshot.
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01-17-2020, 11:10 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Maybe related to what lunker said because those numbers make zero sense to me. That said, 50hz is damn low, it takes way more power to create and can rattle or expose weaknesses in about anything... like amps and speakers.
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Of course. But again. My speakers and headphones can play these back in VLC and other programs, but Reaper makes it sound like I'm clipping them to holy hell. Even when the monitoring levels are 0.000001% of anything usable. The distortion occurs regardless of monitoring level, is my point. Thanks.
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01-17-2020, 11:12 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
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My top value is set to PEAK in the options, bottom is RMS.
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01-17-2020, 11:13 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Maybe related to what lunker said because those numbers make zero sense to me. That said, 50hz is damn low, it takes way more power to create and can rattle or expose weaknesses in about anything... like amps and speakers.
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Yep, sure can do that. I have kinda similar problem with my monitoring via old analog mixer. E-caps are clearly in need of replacement, low frequencies are getting weak and distort occasionally.
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01-17-2020, 11:14 AM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
Clearly, the number on TOP of the master meter is the peak value, no?
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I think you can configure the meter so that RMS is at the top.
Right-click on the meter to bring up the configuration. Maybe also post a screenshot of that.
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Best Regards, Ernie "lunker" Lundqvist
BDSM (Bad Dog Studio Musicians)
Windows 10 running on Z390 + i7-8700
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01-17-2020, 11:18 AM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
Of course. But again. My speakers and headphones can play these back in VLC and other programs, but Reaper makes it sound like I'm clipping them to holy hell. Even when the monitoring levels are 0.000001% of anything usable. The distortion occurs regardless of monitoring level, is my point. Thanks.
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I assume it is but is s the actual hardware output at the default of zero:
If so then I suppose check that the driver/settings reapers device prefs is the same as VLC etc. And make sure there isn't something on monitoring FX that has been forgotten about.
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01-17-2020, 11:19 AM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
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As already said, those numbers look very strange. RMS is an average value and cannot be larger than the peak value. Right-click the master meter and show us the settings. Here it looks like this:
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01-17-2020, 11:25 AM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
As already said, those numbers look very strange. RMS is an average value and cannot be larger than the peak value. Right-click the master meter and show us the settings. Here it looks like this:
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I agree about the numbers. But also, they are in front of my eyes, thus I had to ask the gurus here.
I'll check my right click values. Brb.
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01-17-2020, 11:30 AM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian
As already said, those numbers look very strange. RMS is an average value and cannot be larger than the peak value. Right-click the master meter and show us the settings. Here it looks like this:
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Here is my new metering when I copy your settings. Please note, the sound still distorts beyond recognition at this level in REAPER. And distorts across 3 interfaces and 2 headphone models.
It's happening in Reaper. Please save my sanity lol. Thank you. Even a high pass filter @20hz doesn't fix this. I just tested it.
I'm sorry but -3db peaks and -9 RMS should NOT distort at any monitoring level in my DAW. Someone school me please.
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01-17-2020, 11:34 AM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
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See my sanity check above - I trust you but it doesn't appear to be clipping in reaper as far as the meters go, so monitor FX, hardware output level, and driver settings are almost all that is left.
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01-17-2020, 11:49 AM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
See my sanity check above - I trust you but it doesn't appear to be clipping in reaper as far as the meters go, so monitor FX, hardware output level, and driver settings are almost all that is left.
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Thanks for helping. I will confirm the hardware output too. All that's left? Is it possible that any modern interface in 2020 made in the past 2 years worth it's salt would clip and distort at the values I am showing, at 50Hz sine? Just curious. Because I only have a few here to test. Because in the past I've never had distortion at this setup until I used these new interfaces.
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01-17-2020, 11:53 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
Thanks for helping. I will confirm the hardware output too. All that's left? Is it possible that any modern interface in 2020 made in the past 2 years worth it's salt would clip and distort at the values I am showing, at 50Hz sine? Just curious. Because I only have a few here to test. Because in the past I've never had distortion at this setup until I used these new interfaces.
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Here are the all that's left reasons I can think of that would result in your symptoms but I could have missed one...
1. It isn't exceeding 0 dBFS on the master meter in your screenshot, so the audio is not "clipping" on it's way to the hardware output - "hardware output" is that little knob in my screenshot - it is AFTER the meters. "If" it were inadvertently cranked you'd get crazy distortion from clipping the interface converters and the reaper meters would not show it.
2. Monitoring FX doesn't affect the meters either and only affects what you hear - if for some chance some plugin were there and manipulating the signal such as distorting it, you'd not see it and only hear it.
3. If your interface has a control panel, or any kind of metering for the output, see if it is clipping.
4. I assume the 50 Hz sine wave is not clipped itself and we don't know it - you could place an oscilloscope plugin on the master and confirm it looks like a sine. That will prove that it's pure at least until it leaves the master track. JS: Oscilloscope should work.
Also, for 1, 2 and 3 above, it would be perfectly clean when rendered or listened to in other apps, and only be distorted when monitoring in reaper. That's why I'm asking.
My only other question, what happens if you just pull up a mix and play it like normal, does that distort?
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Last edited by karbomusic; 01-17-2020 at 12:05 PM.
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01-17-2020, 11:53 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
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It might not be Reaper, you have not yet ruled out the audio card and most importantly the PC it's self.
You need to rule out all other things (Process of elimination) before you can say it's Reaper.
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01-17-2020, 11:57 AM
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#20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rncwalker
It might not be Reaper, you have not yet ruled out the audio card and most importantly the PC it's self.
You need to rule out all other things (Process of elimination) before you can say it's Reaper.
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Seriously? lol did you read my posts friend. I tried 3 + sound cards and 2 pro headphones. Oops.
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01-17-2020, 12:10 PM
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#21
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Sorry that this is happening to you, I've gone through similar problems myself a few years back. I did find by doing a process of elimination helped me to finding the problem.
Try installing reaper Portable to see if you still have the same problem.
Maybe their was a setting changed in reaper that is causing this problem for you.
Robert
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01-17-2020, 01:00 PM
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#22
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Since I just tested this on my setup, and I can output up to 0 dBfs 50Hz sine wave from Reaper without distortion in my headphones or speakers (as long as my amp or headphone amp isn't set too loud), I'm at a loss unless some other information is provided (audio driver type/settings for instance). Since you mentioned that you switched interfaces and then had this problem, it's worth considering that a driver (or setting of a driver) isn't optimal.
I mentioned the audio cables because it was something that caught me off guard, and it drove me crazy. It doesn't matter what brand or supposed quality the cables are, you should swap them for others and try again just in case. (Defects can happen in any cable, and I was "sure" my cables were fine too when I had this problem. More than once. With a DAW, and with my guitar setup.)
Last edited by JamesPeters; 01-17-2020 at 01:05 PM.
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01-17-2020, 01:14 PM
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#23
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lowell.... ok maybe reaper but IF so, then it is a setting
stop and consider if it was reaper in general, why would there not be hundreds of distortion reports from others?
I second the suggest to do a clean portable install and test in that without changing any settings other than of course to add the audio interface.
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01-17-2020, 01:21 PM
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#24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
Seriously? lol did you read my posts friend. I tried 3 + sound cards and 2 pro headphones. Oops.
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but you also seemed to think that your RMS was higher than your peak, so you haven't come across as a reliable witness i'm afraid
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01-17-2020, 01:33 PM
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#25
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what are you using to generate the test tone - the -3.1 / -8.7 readings don't indicate a sine wave?
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01-17-2020, 01:48 PM
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#26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
If so then I suppose check that the driver/settings reapers device prefs is the same as VLC etc.
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and make sure you are playing exactly the same file / test tone in VLC etc.
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01-17-2020, 01:56 PM
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#27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy
what are you using to generate the test tone - the -3.1 / -8.7 readings don't indicate a sine wave?
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Good catch. If I set it for -3.1 dB peak (as lowellben did) with a 50 Hz wave from the included tone generator, my RMS is -6.1 dB (with those settings for the meters mentioned in Fabian's post).
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01-17-2020, 01:58 PM
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#28
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy
but you also seemed to think that your RMS was higher than your peak, so you haven't come across as a reliable witness i'm afraid
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Dude. It was higher. I had a screenshot showing it lol. Thanks though. I just didn't know why it LOOKED that way in Reaper. I'm well seasoned.
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01-17-2020, 01:58 PM
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#29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters
Good catch. If I set it for -3.1 dB peak (as lowellben did) with a 50 Hz wave from the included tone generator, my RMS is -6.1 dB (with those settings for the meters mentioned in Fabian's post).
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Thanks Your eyes are solid.
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01-17-2020, 02:01 PM
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#30
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yeah, as previously mentioned, it should be just a 3db difference - i strongly suspect some saw wave or distortion going on at item level?
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01-17-2020, 02:03 PM
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#31
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Checking with a JS: oscilloscope is step 4 of my "4 steps to success" post above. Actually, even a spectrum analyzer will show it because anything other than a pure sine will have visible harmonics.
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01-17-2020, 02:09 PM
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#32
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Checking with a JS: oscilloscope is step 4 of my "4 steps to success" post above. Actually, even a spectrum analyzer will show it because anything other than a pure sine will have visible harmonics.
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Just did that now, you read my mind
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01-17-2020, 02:12 PM
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#33
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
Checking with a JS: oscilloscope is step 4 of my "4 steps to success" post above. Actually, even a spectrum analyzer will show it because anything other than a pure sine will have visible harmonics.
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So ReaSynth sine wave is dirty. The tone generator sine does indeed have a perfect -3dB split. So that's fine. But it still shouldn't distort lol there is not any 'items' here to blame. It's a tone generator. FYI. Hmmm. My brain is kaput.
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01-17-2020, 02:16 PM
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#34
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowellben
So ReaSynth sine wave is dirty. The tone generator sine does indeed have a perfect -3dB split. So that's fine. But it still shouldn't distort lol there is not any 'items' here to blame. It's a tone generator. FYI. Hmmm. My brain is kaput.
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IMHO A sine wave via tone generator is the only thing you should trust in this case. It doesn't matter if it is an item or not, it only matters if the sine wave is a 'perfect' sine wave.
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01-17-2020, 02:17 PM
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#35
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First I'd ask myself if it sounded reasonable to think this DAW app that so many claim is an upgrade from Protools HD and the BBC is using and all that could be just crude ass distorted. And all the users are apparently just not critical folks. That seems off, so...
1. DAW/interface connection.
Interface is selected in the DAW and talking.
Sample rate is set with intention.
Block size is set with intention.
2. Out of sight DAW stuff like monitor fx, hardware send levels, etc. (This has been mentioned.)
3. Audio interface built-in mixer settings. (It's like another DAW app on more advanced interfaces after all.)
4. Other audio apps running on the computer. What is their connection to the audio interface? Anything else sending sample rate requests?
That's the stuff I check first.
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01-17-2020, 02:22 PM
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#36
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
IMHO A sine wave via tone generator is the only thing you should trust in this case. It doesn't matter if it is an item or not, it only matters if the sine wave is a 'perfect' sine wave.
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i agree completely, JS tone generator is perfect for this, it's just that going by the readings and the fact that LB says he tried it in other software i assume he has either rendered a file or is using something else?
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01-17-2020, 02:23 PM
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#37
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karbomusic
IMHO A sine wave via tone generator is the only thing you should trust in this case. It doesn't matter if it is an item or not, it only matters if the sine wave is a 'perfect' sine wave.
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Yup✔️
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01-17-2020, 02:23 PM
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#38
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy
i agree completely, JS tone generator is perfect for this, it's just that going by the readings and the fact that LB says he tried it in other software i assume he has either rendered a file or is using something else?
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Correct. Rendered out audio has zero distortion at the levels I list above.
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01-17-2020, 02:56 PM
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#39
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Human being with feelings
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Your statistics are made up? LOL (47.8% of statistics are made up.)
Did you find out the problem?
Robert
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01-17-2020, 03:32 PM
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#40
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Human being with feelings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rncwalker
Your statistics are made up? LOL (47.8% of statistics are made up.)
Did you find out the problem?
Robert
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No. I can't figure it out. Maybe I'll share a project file.
To test this, just open the project file and do NOT touch ANY parameter or setting. Nothing. Nada. Leave the project alone, just hit un-mute for the tone generator and adjust your sound card knob.
Just only adjust the hardware knob on your interface sound card. And, on any setting, from barely audible to loud monitoring, there should be distortion.
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