Old 09-06-2014, 01:32 PM   #161
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Ok i am at a complete loss... what im hearing coming outta my monitors is not what is coming outta my truck... i dont get it.. the last recording i did sounded the same in both... now this one is fighting me and i know my mix was bad but the bad mix coming out my monitors should sound the same coming out mu speakers... the vocals should be louder when they are barely there in the mix... i know... i know i did it on purpose to test my theory.. in my monitors i barely hear the vocals and solo but in my car they are louder then the rest of the mix... can someone explain that? how did the volumes change?
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Old 09-06-2014, 01:44 PM   #162
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sound cloud still not working for me so cant comment on your mix but in both cars I use the stuff panned center is loud and clear and my panned guitars drop in volume.

ha, now its working. mix sounds better, can imagine the guitars sounding lower in my car too.
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Old 09-06-2014, 01:54 PM   #163
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Vocals are definitely right up front in both my studio monitors and the little janky computer speakers.
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Old 09-06-2014, 01:55 PM   #164
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Yeah that's a big improvement. Much better!
Really?!! I mean, there are improvements, certainly....

Now I can hear the bass better (it's not good), it's a lot clearer how sloppy the timing is. I think you need to get the guitar and the bass better in sync. I also think that would make the drums sound worse....
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:00 PM   #165
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I was talking about the mix, not the performance.
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:03 PM   #166
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in my monitors i barely hear the vocals and solo but in my car they are louder then the rest of the mix... can someone explain that? how did the volumes change?
When this thread started, I thought there was something wrong with the speakers in your truck. From what you're saying here, it sounds like there's something wrong with the monitors in your studio. Have you checked the polarity?
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:08 PM   #167
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When this thread started, I thought there was something wrong with the speakers in your truck. From what you're saying here, it sounds like there's something wrong with the monitors in your studio. Have you checked the polarity?
nope how would i do that? it was this much of a pain in the ass lat year when i was working on my old computer.. the mix didn't do this... so im at a loss.. im gonna go back in agbain.. im also gonna pull a mix up from last year and see what that sounds like.. see if there is a change..
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:09 PM   #168
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Vocals are definitely right up front in both my studio monitors and the little janky computer speakers.
yeah see not on my monitors but in my truck of hellyeah they are.. its like the volume dropped out of the entire song and left just the vocals and the solo.. this is getting frustrating...
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:19 PM   #169
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nope how would i do that?
If its not going to be anything as simple as + to + and - to - (and not vice versa), then I'm going to have to leave this one to someone more competent than I....
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it was this much of a pain in the ass lat year when i was working on my old computer.. the mix didn't do this...
Did you mean to say it wasn't this much of a pain in the ass? All I know was that I once bought monitors that sounded fantastic with one of them wired wrong until it blew its tweeter. I guess it all depends on the material you're listening to....
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:25 PM   #170
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screw it im going back to a75 pan... see if that works... cant hurt
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:28 PM   #171
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Go mono. See what happens.
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:29 PM   #172
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If its not going to be anything as simple as + to + and - to - (and not vice versa), then I'm going to have to leave this one to someone more competent than I....
Did you mean to say it wasn't this much of a pain in the ass? All I know was that I once bought monitors that sounded fantastic with one of them wired wrong until it blew its tweeter. I guess it all depends on the material you're listening to....
mixing wasnt this much of a pain in the ass is what i meant.. i just opened one of my mixes from last year and although the master was pumping(i still have no idea how to tell that unless you mean it shakes the cones of the monitor speaker... and i hit the mono button and bam it was the same as in stereo (good or shit it was the same no phasing guitars nothing being covered it was descent to listen to to) but with this mix its killing me! its fighting me every step of the way.
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Old 09-06-2014, 02:29 PM   #173
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It really does sound like a monitor phase/polarity issue. Maybe try this to check?
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

I don't have an immediate solution either. It might be a good idea to start a new thread asking about this issue.

Like Fex said, try mixing in mono and see if it helps or hurts.
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Old 09-06-2014, 03:03 PM   #174
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ok so tip #200 and something.. never pan guitars above 80% i put them at 75 and they are even in the mono to stereo ratio..
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Old 09-06-2014, 03:06 PM   #175
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It really does sound like a monitor phase/polarity issue. Maybe try this to check?
http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_polaritycheck.php

I don't have an immediate solution either. It might be a good idea to start a new thread asking about this issue.

Like Fex said, try mixing in mono and see if it helps or hurts.
hey that works! good web page!
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Old 09-06-2014, 03:19 PM   #176
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Play a mono recording (lossless) and put your speakers face to face. If they're out of phase, the sound should more or less vanish.
(If not, you can test the theory with Reaper by splitting a mono signal to two tracks and reversing the phase on one of them.)
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Old 09-06-2014, 03:41 PM   #177
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ok now i have a problem! i upgraded to the lasted reaper in the event my old one may have been causing an issue now when i render i choose my file folder but when i open that folder in windows explorer ITS NOT THERE!!!!!!!!!! if i hit show in explorer from mthe render window i see it but none of the other files... WTF is going on!!!!
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Old 09-06-2014, 04:10 PM   #178
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user error... i found the problem.. ugh im ov er stressed and need a nap
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Old 09-07-2014, 01:02 AM   #179
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So I listened to it first in my wife's car and now over headphones. I have to say that I'm hearing a definite improvement in the mix.... the kick and the lead guitar are both situated better in the mix, and the cymbals and bass are much more present.

While over headphones it's not an issue, in the car the vocals were getting swamped by the rhythm guitars, so there's still some work to be done overall, but it's a step in the right direction....

...What is not a step in the right direction is that when I flip the mix to mono the rhythm guitars disappear again. You didn't check your mono mix. That was the purpose of mixing mono, so you'd hear those phase issues right off the bat!

Either you're still using a stereo widener on your guitars and cymbals or you've still got some phase issues in your mix somewhere. I'm definitely hearing it with the hi-hat. I'm betting that this is the source of the "vocals buried by the guitars" effect in the car.

The downside to better clarity and cohesiveness in the mix is that the material's flaws are far more evident. There's no way around it - some of the playing is sloppy, and that takes away from some of the track's potential.

Last edited by SaulT; 09-07-2014 at 01:21 AM.
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:48 AM   #180
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So I listened to it first in my wife's car and now over headphones. I have to say that I'm hearing a definite improvement in the mix.... the kick and the lead guitar are both situated better in the mix, and the cymbals and bass are much more present.

While over headphones it's not an issue, in the car the vocals were getting swamped by the rhythm guitars, so there's still some work to be done overall, but it's a step in the right direction....

...What is not a step in the right direction is that when I flip the mix to mono the rhythm guitars disappear again. You didn't check your mono mix. That was the purpose of mixing mono, so you'd hear those phase issues right off the bat!

Either you're still using a stereo widener on your guitars and cymbals or you've still got some phase issues in your mix somewhere. I'm definitely hearing it with the hi-hat. I'm betting that this is the source of the "vocals buried by the guitars" effect in the car.

The downside to better clarity and cohesiveness in the mix is that the material's flaws are far more evident. There's no way around it - some of the playing is sloppy, and that takes away from some of the track's potential.
mixed entirely in mono... no widener what so ever turned it off... it was only on guitars to begin with.. not on cymbals or hats... i did go back and make changes to this mix after i uploaded this one cuz i uploaded this one and went to test it myself also and I gotta tell you I was disgusted at myself.. not only was it not an improvement it seemed worse. so i went back all day sat and worked on it but i haven't uploaded it yet im checking it myself before i do so... yeah the vocals were or are buried need to check the new mix.. so far mono or stereo my guitars dont seem to disappear but i havent checked my car speakers yet.. but when i flip to mono the guitars dont but they were overpowering the vocals so i re leveled both a bit... again im gonna test it and upload it for you guys..
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Old 09-08-2014, 10:50 AM   #181
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on a side note... has anyone worked with upright bass? your thoughts on how to make it prominent in the mix without it being too bassie (that is so not a word)but as one of these tracks is rockabilly bassed I would like the bass to stand out a bit more.. any suggestions would be great...
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Old 09-08-2014, 11:47 AM   #182
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Are the guitars recorded separately from the cymbals? I thought you said at one point you were using an amp sim. If you are, then I'd be curious to see if there are any spatializing/stereoizing/width settings enabled. Turn them off? Turn them way down?

There are some phase issues going on somewhere. I don't have your mix in front of me, so I can't tell, but I can share my perspective and maybe that's worth something. To me, simplicity is a virtue. Running sound live, fewer mics means less mic bleed and less chance of feedback, right? And if something happens with 7 mics on stage, it's harder to figure out vs 3 or 4 mics. Same thing in the studio - it might look impressive to have eight or ten mics on the drums, and in the right hands I'm sure you can get impressive results, but what happens if one of them is throwing a phase issue?

I still "fondly" remember staring down at 7 channels of drum mics and trying to figure out why exactly the toms were going out of phase when the snare mic was on and what exactly I could do to fix the issue. No, I don't have time for that. If I can get everything I need from two overheads and a kick, then I'm happy. If I can get it from walking around the room, finding where it sounds good, and putting an x-y mic right there... then even better.

Again, I don't know what your drum mic situation is, but if you're having this many phase issues, then what happens if you just use your overheads and kick?

This is in the same philosophy as the approach to mixing and effects chains - keep it simple, keep it sparse, so it's easier to figure out what's going wrong when it goes wrong.
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:05 PM   #183
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oh sure.. tascam us1800 interface. cad drum mics. behringer v amp pro guitar and bass interfaces mxl vocal mics.. not top of the line but they do ok... im not trying to win grammys... behringer monitors... using asio4all sound driver when the tascam isnt directly linked it allows for more resource without lag or chop... um what other info do you need? i will tell you everything if you need this is helpful
Hello
, just one question: your renderings are always done using the Asio4all driver?
I`m not shure and haven`t heard your mixes (a matter of time:-), but if yes this could cause the crappy sound..
I had the same issue with my w8 notebook, rendering with asio4all (which was working with Cubendo always perfect) sounded in reaper horrible e.g. phase shiftings, washy sound, no punch etc.
I tried and tried, the only thing helped was connecting my usb sc (roland quad capture), changing the driver from asio4all to the roland asio driver, rendering once again and everything sounded like before in reaper.

Interesting is the fact, that as long as you`re monitoring your mix with the a4all driver, everything sounds good, but when you start rendering with it...urrgh....

so, my first post in this forum, perhaps it could help (hope so..). I own a reaper licence for about 2 years, but since ~3-4 weeks i`m changing from cubendo to it and i have to say: great piece of software, forum, all those smart people here (users and developers) and last but not least the price and the terms of using this great software. WOW!!!!

(greetz from western germany)
GREETZ FROM GERMANY
xaverle

Last edited by xaverle; 09-08-2014 at 12:32 PM. Reason: ooh long time gone it`s only germany now, i forgot ...sorry
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Old 09-08-2014, 12:06 PM   #184
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on a side note... has anyone worked with upright bass? your thoughts on how to make it prominent in the mix without it being too bassie (that is so not a word)but as one of these tracks is rockabilly bassed I would like the bass to stand out a bit more.. any suggestions would be great...
The 600 to 1000 Hz range is your friend. Boost! And listen on NS10's or Auratones. And if it's slapped, it depends on the "style" of the band if they prefer a high-endish top end or a drastic high cut.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:12 PM   #185
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Are the guitars recorded separately from the cymbals? I thought you said at one point you were using an amp sim. If you are, then I'd be curious to see if there are any spatializing/stereoizing/width settings enabled. Turn them off? Turn them way down?

There are some phase issues going on somewhere. I don't have your mix in front of me, so I can't tell, but I can share my perspective and maybe that's worth something. To me, simplicity is a virtue. Running sound live, fewer mics means less mic bleed and less chance of feedback, right? And if something happens with 7 mics on stage, it's harder to figure out vs 3 or 4 mics. Same thing in the studio - it might look impressive to have eight or ten mics on the drums, and in the right hands I'm sure you can get impressive results, but what happens if one of them is throwing a phase issue?

I still "fondly" remember staring down at 7 channels of drum mics and trying to figure out why exactly the toms were going out of phase when the snare mic was on and what exactly I could do to fix the issue. No, I don't have time for that. If I can get everything I need from two overheads and a kick, then I'm happy. If I can get it from walking around the room, finding where it sounds good, and putting an x-y mic right there... then even better.

Again, I don't know what your drum mic situation is, but if you're having this many phase issues, then what happens if you just use your overheads and kick?

This is in the same philosophy as the approach to mixing and effects chains - keep it simple, keep it sparse, so it's easier to figure out what's going wrong when it goes wrong.
I line in the gtrs thru a behringer vamp pro so there is no bleed between the guitars and drums.. i can check the phase on the cymbals cuz i just checked the new i did haven't uploaded it yet but i can still hear where the guitars are waving in and out now im thinking its the compressor but i can't say for sure. they are phasing occasionally and sparatically even though they have different eqs and such btu i can see if one signal is overlapping but i can still hear it.. not sure of its just the guitars or its the guitars with the cymbals that are crossing.. its driving me nuts of its phase or pump but i will find this culprit and squash it! vengeance shall be mine! yeah im only using reaq and reacomp aside from recab on my guitars for an impulse i even disabled the js amp model i like to use... as for drum mics to minimize bleed im only using over heads to pick up cymbals hats and ride the toms are mics along with the snare top and bottom so 8 in total
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:15 PM   #186
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The 600 to 1000 Hz range is your friend. Boost! And listen on NS10's or Auratones. And if it's slapped, it depends on the "style" of the band if they prefer a high-endish top end or a drastic high cut.
its an electric uprigt so the bass is lined in but i also set up an ext mic to record the slap and blend it together. On its own awseome but in the mix it gets lost a bit.. i want it stand out so i will work with those parameters to see it i can get it to come out
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:16 PM   #187
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as for drum mics to minimize bleed im only using over heads to pick up cymbals hats and ride the toms are mics along with the snare top and bottom so 8 in total
I would think this would be the place to look for the culprit, right here.
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:16 PM   #188
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Hello
, just one question: your renderings are always done using the Asio4all driver?
I`m not shure and haven`t heard your mixes (a matter of time:-), but if yes this could cause the crappy sound..
I had the same issue with my w8 notebook, rendering with asio4all (which was working with Cubendo always perfect) sounded in reaper horrible e.g. phase shiftings, washy sound, no punch etc.
I tried and tried, the only thing helped was connecting my usb sc (roland quad capture), changing the driver from asio4all to the roland asio driver, rendering once again and everything sounded like before in reaper.

Interesting is the fact, that as long as you`re monitoring your mix with the a4all driver, everything sounds good, but when you start rendering with it...urrgh....

so, my first post in this forum, perhaps it could help (hope so..). I own a reaper licence for about 2 years, but since ~3-4 weeks i`m changing from cubendo to it and i have to say: great piece of software, forum, all those smart people here (users and developers) and last but not least the price and the terms of using this great software. WOW!!!!

(greetz from western germany)
GREETZ FROM GERMANY
xaverle
thanks I will try that
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Old 09-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #189
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I would think this would be the place to look for the culprit, right here.
ok meaning? so my drum mics are causing my guitars to phase or is it my cymbals that are phasing Im so brain drained.. im gonna render just drums.. just guitar and listern speratetly if there is phasing on one or the other ill hear it if not ill have to assume its the 2 together and go from there. each tom is mic'd 3 total snare top and bottom.. kick... and just 2 overheads... i will mess with the over heads individually.. right now i have them bussed to a single eq and Im willing to guess that you're gonna tell me that can be causing the phasing...
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Old 09-08-2014, 02:26 PM   #190
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ok meaning? so my drum mics are causing my guitars to phase or is it my cymbals that are phasing Im so brain drained.. im gonna render just drums.. just guitar and listern speratetly if there is phasing on one or the other ill hear it if not ill have to assume its the 2 together and go from there. each tom is mic'd 3 total snare top and bottom.. kick... and just 2 overheads... i will mess with the over heads individually.. right now i have them bussed to a single eq and Im willing to guess that you're gonna tell me that can be causing the phasing...
Man, I am just giving the opinion, trying to help you out. Nothing more.
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Old 09-08-2014, 02:49 PM   #191
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Man, I am just giving the opinion, trying to help you out. Nothing more.
oH no please dont take it the wrong way.... im actually asking what you mean and i was also giving you more detail as to what im using and my game plan at this point to find the culprit.. please I meant it in question not an attack... so where would you look or is my idea a good start?
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:02 PM   #192
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I know you are struggling to figure things out.

I tend to look at the "more complicated" scenarios, first.

Initially, the moment I saw your original mastering chain, I thought, "That is just way too overcomplicated and convoluted, to be of use."

I think a few people here felt the same way.

Now that that has been taken out of the equation, I am just following the same path to find the possible culprit.

I have no answers, only guesses and opinions.

Keep at it, you'll find the solution, and we will all learn something along the way.
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:10 PM   #193
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I know you are struggling to figure things out.

I tend to look at the "more complicated" scenarios, first.

Initially, the moment I saw your original mastering chain, I thought, "That is just way too overcomplicated and convoluted, to be of use."

I think a few people here felt the same way.

Now that that has been taken out of the equation, I am just following the same path to find the possible culprit.

I have no answers, only guesses and opinions.

Keep at it, you'll find the solution, and we will all learn something along the way.
RIGHT.. SO....would you compare the overheads against the guitars? cuz at this point thats what im gonna do that and well split the eq between the 2 overheads instead of just the one aux which is strange i would imagine that would be a decent idea considering its 2 different cymbals and its only the high pass at 150 and a shelf boost at 800 and a bit of compression.. maybe i should back up off the thresh on either the cym or the gtrs or both... what is your stance on gtr compression?
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:15 PM   #194
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im gonna render just drums.. just guitar and listern speratetly if there is phasing on one or the other ill hear it if not ill have to assume its the 2 together and go from there.
Yes. This. Do this.


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as for drum mics to minimize bleed im only using over heads to pick up cymbals hats and ride the toms are mics along with the snare top and bottom so 8 in total
This is exactly what I was describing - there are issues, but you don't know where because there are so many mics. Look, you used too many mics without checking them for phase issues first. You can now either spend hours clicking things trying to fix it, you can re-record, or you can throw out all of those extra mics and go back to basics.

As I said before, start with just your 2 overheads and your kick and see how it sounds in the mix. With a bit of NY parallel compression and some judicious EQ you might get all of the sound you need without having to add any other mics in.
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:18 PM   #195
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This is exactly what I was describing - there are issues, but you don't know where because there are so many mics. Look, you used too many mics without checking them for phase issues first. You can now either spend hours clicking things trying to fix it, you can re-record, or you can throw out all of those extra mics and go back to basics.

As I said before, start with just your 2 overheads and your kick and see how it sounds in the mix. With a bit of NY parallel compression and some judicious EQ you might get all of the sound you need without having to add any other mics in.
This.
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:29 PM   #196
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RIGHT.. SO....would you compare the overheads against the guitars? cuz at this point thats what im gonna do that and well split the eq between the 2 overheads instead of just the one aux which is strange i would imagine that would be a decent idea considering its 2 different cymbals and its only the high pass at 150 and a shelf boost at 800 and a bit of compression.. maybe i should back up off the thresh on either the cym or the gtrs or both... what is your stance on gtr compression?
I know you didnt aske me but... I'll chime in on guitars, what are you trying to get with compression?

High gain guitar is already pretty much totally compressed.. i've never liked compressing high gain guitars generally.

When i listened to your track I thought i could hear a compressor breathing (pumping) on the guitar tracks. In my experience, audible compression on heavy guitar tracks is not a cool effect
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:37 PM   #197
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I rarely compress my guitars.
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Old 09-08-2014, 03:58 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by thequietroom View Post
I know you didnt aske me but... I'll chime in on guitars, what are you trying to get with compression?

High gain guitar is already pretty much totally compressed.. i've never liked compressing high gain guitars generally.

When i listened to your track I thought i could hear a compressor breathing (pumping) on the guitar tracks. In my experience, audible compression on heavy guitar tracks is not a cool effect
that helps!!!! i had a compressor on them and that could be causing it to wave or pump on top of other things... let me get rid of that too and ill get back with you guys.... slowly we're narrowing it down ... thanks all of you...
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Old 09-09-2014, 01:00 AM   #199
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this is certainly taking time and lots of 'guess's'

why not post your multi-track for download and we could really figure out whats going on
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Old 09-09-2014, 10:06 AM   #200
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this is certainly taking time and lots of 'guess's'

Yep... Entirely too much 'hand-holding'.

I still stand by my first comment, and every other since has only confirmed it. The OP stated that for 7 years he has been "mixing and mastering" (terms used loosely) his music. Yet here we are, with many of you good people spending days of time trying to solve the issues...which are all basic fundamentals of recording that someone doing it that long should be well past.

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