Old 02-27-2021, 08:09 AM   #1
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Default Behringer's secret(not)

Often as companies find success they drift away from their initial core beliefs and the basics upon which they were founded.

Not impressed by their recent behaviour as describes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5RSIWbZ6Vc
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Old 02-27-2021, 08:15 AM   #2
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Thought the Behringer's core principle was being sketchy af right from the beginning
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Old 02-27-2021, 09:07 AM   #3
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it's so grating the way he pronounces it as "berrinjer" like it has a J - i always thought it was "bay-ringer"

but then again, i tend to say "mooog" rather than "mogue" so i probably shouldn't comment
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Old 02-27-2021, 09:48 AM   #4
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So what's new?

Big corporations have used litigation as a way to disrupt competition.

Harman isn't even the worst example. In the era of the Soundcraft Delta, it's owner sued the then new owner of the DDA brand for the DDA Interface mixer. They won, Telex group was sentenced to pay a cool million and costs and abandoned their plans to develop the DDA, Electrovoice and a few other brands to have their own range of audio electronics.

The front layout of the DDA does resemble the Delta, but the innards are completely different. Layout is protected ip, schematics are not.

You can't expect Behringer not to do what others tried to do to them wen they were a very much smaller company. Big fish eat little fish, etc.

Capitalism at it's best...
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Old 02-27-2021, 10:00 AM   #5
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I recently ordered the Behringer ADA8200 8 Midas mic pre exapansion module to add to my Behringer UMC1820.

I'll have sixteen Midas mic inputs and an ultra low latency interface for $500 total cost. Man, I hate that!
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:32 AM   #6
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Litigation and patents have nothing to do with technical merit (or lack thereof). For decades it has been used by *every* company as a stategic market positioning tool, to push competitors around. If you choose to make moral judgements about it, that's your call. But every company does it, and a large number of settlements are under seal so you never hear about them. Kinda like Trump and his raped underage nymphettes...

BTW, Glennbo, I too love the ADA8200; both for the sound and solid reliabilty.
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:41 AM   #7
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Litigation and patents have nothing to do with technical merit (or lack thereof). For decades it has been used by *every* company as a stategic market positioning tool, to push competitors around. If you choose to make moral judgements about it, that's your call. But every company does it, and a large number of settlements are under seal so you never hear about them. Kinda like Trump and his underage nymphettes...
You could probably be sued for saying that!

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BTW, Glennbo, I too love the ADA8200; both for the sound and solid reliabilty.
They are SCARCE right now due to the chip drought. I was assured that I will get one mid March, and for the incredible low low price of $199. I love my Behringer UMC1820, and expanding it to twice as many channels will be extra cool.

You can see I've already got a 1U slot waiting right above my UMC1820.

https://sclkssl.ssl.hwcdn.net/57/img...205_808038.jpg
.
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:48 AM   #8
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Big corporations have used litigation as a way to disrupt competition.

You can't expect Behringer not to do what others tried to do to them wen they were a very much smaller company. Big fish eat little fish, etc.
People and companies who abuse their position of power need to be punished. Having been on the receiving end of those practices doesn't give you the right to do it yourself.

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Capitalism at it's best...
That's not capitalism at all. Capitalism requires free markets, not quasi monopolies.

With information more freely available today, customers have the power to punish bad business practices. Or they can keep getting exploited and tell themselves there' nothing they can do because it's always been this way.
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:54 AM   #9
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People and companies who abuse their position of power need to be punished. Having been on the receiving end of those practices doesn't give you the right to do it yourself.



That's not capitalism at all. Capitalism requires free markets, not quasi monopolies.

With information more freely available today, customers have the power to punish bad business practices. Or they can keep getting exploited and tell themselves there' nothing they can do because it's always been this way.
Free markets without monopolies are a myth. Ask your natural gas provider to hook you up with a competitor and you'll find out what I mean. Maybe wait till warm weather to try it.
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Old 02-27-2021, 11:58 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Held View Post
People and companies who abuse their position of power need to be punished. Having been on the receiving end of those practices doesn't give you the right to do it yourself.



That's not capitalism at all. Capitalism requires free markets, not quasi monopolies.

With information more freely available today, customers have the power to punish bad business practices. Or they can keep getting exploited and tell themselves there' nothing they can do because it's always been this way.
China.
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Old 02-27-2021, 12:03 PM   #11
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Free markets without monopolies are a myth. Ask your natural gas provider to hook you up with a competitor and you'll find out what I mean. Maybe wait till warm weather to try it.
I'm in Germany where most infrastructure is publicly owned and we don't lose power for weeks in winter. It's great. You should try it.

Unless you value the freedom to freeze because it's snowing a little. Then you should move to Texas.

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China.
Delusional.
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Old 02-27-2021, 12:16 PM   #12
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With information more freely available today, customers have the power to punish bad business practices. Or they can keep getting exploited and tell themselves there' nothing they can do because it's always been this way.
LOL.

I've been sued (or threatened with a lawsuit) for writing about a product that suggested in it's brandname to be organic, but wasn't. Although it was true, I couldn't afford the time and money to deal with it, so I pulled the article.

Freedom of speech. Hah!

More than half of the reviews on the net are fake. Etc.
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Old 02-27-2021, 12:21 PM   #13
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LOL.

I've been sued (or threatened with a lawsuit) for writing about a product that suggested in it's brandname to be organic, but wasn't. Although it was true, I couldn't afford the time and money to deal with it, so I pulled the article.

Freedom of speech. Hah!

More than half of the reviews on the net are fake. Etc.
I don't understand what you're trying to say? That we should ignore the wrong doings we are aware of because there are even more we don't know about?

I think it's great you tried to raise awareness about shady companies. Sorry it turned out like this.

It's also important to elect politicians who care about freedom of information and pass the right laws so things like that don't happen anymore. And we need strong government agencies who protect consumers from misleading advertising.

Germany is pretty good with regards to that, but there's still a lot of room for improvement which doesn't happen because of lobbyists and corrupt politicians. But that doesn't mean we should stop advocating for it simply because it's difficult.
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Old 02-27-2021, 05:35 PM   #14
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Sorry, Held, should've been clearer, I guess.

It's a reaction to "the information available". That information has never been as corrupted as today. Over half of scientific research isn't scientific at all, fi.

I'm certainly not expecting you to ignore any wrong doings. Your statement just read so delightfully naive. I think sifting information has become almost humanly impossible. From what Behringer is doing, over what mic to use to religion. The sheer volume of facts and opinions about any subject makes it very hard. The portion of fake info makes it impossible.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't at least, try to make up our minds and have opinions about some things. Like you wrote already.

I just don't think Behringer should get our wrath, as the only one...
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Old 02-28-2021, 03:10 AM   #15
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Corporatism is not capitalism.

Corporatism is like an oligarchy without beheadings.
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Old 02-28-2021, 03:57 AM   #16
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Corporatism is not capitalism.
It's the same difference.
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Old 02-28-2021, 04:03 AM   #17
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Sorry, Held, should've been clearer, I guess.

It's a reaction to "the information available". That information has never been as corrupted as today. Over half of scientific research isn't scientific at all, fi.
It's naive to believe that this used to be better in the past. At least today, you have all scientific publications available for free. In the past, you needed to go to a university to access papers and they only had a fraction of them because scientific journals are way overpriced. And the best part is that most of the work is publicly funded while the profits go to private publishers.

Yes, you need to know what you're looking for and people are lying about scientific results, but at least you can check, where as in the past, you had to believe the one or two newspapers available.

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I'm certainly not expecting you to ignore any wrong doings. Your statement just read so delightfully naive. I think sifting information has become almost humanly impossible. From what Behringer is doing, over what mic to use to religion. The sheer volume of facts and opinions about any subject makes it very hard. The portion of fake info makes it impossible.
Again, at least you have information while in the past you had to trust the "expert" in your local shop who wanted to make the most profit off of you. You were being lied to just as much in the past if not more, you just didn't realize it because there was no way to verify someone else's claims. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.

Of course, it would ideal to have only one accurate source of information, but that's never going to happen, so I prefer to have many sources that I can compare rather than just a few questionable ones.

If that's not manageable for you, you need to find someone you trust who does it for you. Just like in the golden days of limited information listen only to that person and pretend all the other sources of information don't exist.


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That doesn't mean we shouldn't at least, try to make up our minds and have opinions about some things. Like you wrote already.

I just don't think Behringer should get our wrath, as the only one...
I agree. There are plenty of shady companies out there. But there are most likely also better companies that you can support with your money. I don't know much about audio hardware, so I wouldn't know. But I know I don't buy VSTs with restrictive copy protection like iLok because I don't want it to spread anymore.
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Old 02-28-2021, 04:49 AM   #18
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With information more freely available today, customers have the power to punish bad business practices. Or they can keep getting exploited and tell themselves there' nothing they can do because it's always been this way.
i think saying that consumers "have the power" is purely hypothetical. they may have the physical capacity, but not the capability in a deterministic universe.

the consumer's ability to punish bad business practices is better seen as a loose, flailing fire hose, not a targeted power washer. it is fickle, poorly informed, difficult to guide, and has a short attention span. bad practices are trivial to hide from consumers, and if they can't be hidden, trivial to obfuscate.

in the United States, refer to caged factory farm operations, fast food, and the sugar industry. no shortage of damning information, no scholarly dispute about the ill effects of these industries, and no shortage of gleeful consumers spending money they can't afford to spend on garbage.

expert opinion is largely trivialized by personal bias. humans simply do not have the kind of "free will" which is assumed by the common language of this discussion
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Old 02-28-2021, 06:22 AM   #19
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humans simply do not have the kind of "free will" which is assumed by the common language of this discussion
Sad, but probably true. For more on this, see
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p093wp6h

(hours of it, well worth it tho')
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:07 AM   #20
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It's naive to believe that this used to be better in the past. At least today, you have all scientific publications available for free. In the past, you needed to go to a university to access papers and they only had a fraction of them because scientific journals are way overpriced. And the best part is that most of the work is publicly funded while the profits go to private publishers.

Yes, you need to know what you're looking for and people are lying about scientific results, but at least you can check, where as in the past, you had to believe the one or two newspapers available.



Again, at least you have information while in the past you had to trust the "expert" in your local shop who wanted to make the most profit off of you. You were being lied to just as much in the past if not more, you just didn't realize it because there was no way to verify someone else's claims. Ignorance is bliss, I guess.
I'll try again. Let's take the example of a car. You need info about it.

In the past, you bought a service manual. Either from the car's manufacturer (expensive, but autorative) or from one of the few independent publishers.

That possibility no longer exist. The independent publishers no longer publish these and the car manufacturers no longer sell these.

In exchange, you've got information from the net. Only, you don't know if that single piece of info you found is about your car. Could be another year, could be another version. And, most importantly, you'll get several pieces of conflicting info.

If something was wrong with the printed manuals of the past, you talked to a mechanic who knew these cars.

Mechanics who know cars are mostly gone. Cars evolve too fast and the electronics in there are understood by a few exceptions. Most car mechanics have no idea what a CAN-bus is. Not can they read the errors produced by the MCU.

I'm not saying the old cars were better. Just that it was way easier to understand them, because they were way simpler. And most info was precise and correct.

With today's cars, you drown in a pool of conflicting and outright false information.

That's a car as example. Electronics are far worse.

Quote:
Of course, it would ideal to have only one accurate source of information, but that's never going to happen, so I prefer to have many sources that I can compare rather than just a few questionable ones.
In principle, I never trust ONE source. But I don't see too many cases where there's only one source. Even then, it happens. Books about mushrooms and animals come to my mind. Cases where seven out of eight say one thing, but the last, single one is right. Those seven all have copied the same source.

Quote:
If that's not manageable for you, you need to find someone you trust who does it for you. Just like in the golden days of limited information listen only to that person and pretend all the other sources of information don't exist.
I do know a bit about managing information. In it's many forms, it's always been part of my job. I'm a database guy. Figuring out what percentage of a database was junk, always was an important part of what I did.


Quote:
I agree. There are plenty of shady companies out there. But there are most likely also better companies that you can support with your money. I don't know much about audio hardware, so I wouldn't know. But I know I don't buy VSTs with restrictive copy protection like iLok because I don't want it to spread anymore.
Yes, there are good guys. But these always end up in the belly of the big fish eventually.

My nephew runs a startup, doing well with green energy. The USA offered him 40 grand to move his company to Delaware. He doesn't like it, but the idea was pushed with the warning "If you don't accept the money, someone else will". That's another way the big boys eat the small fish. By tuning the rules to their liking while being very obstructive for others.

There's no way in hell we, as consumers, can stop that. If we stop one strategy, they'll just develop another.

Our govt should be able to stop most of this. I mean, that's what they're there for, isn't it? To protect consumers? And even small fish companies?

That's why small countries, like in Europe, need to stick together. If Belgium tries to stop tax fraud, the fraudsters simply go elsewhere. If the EU tries the same, the fraudsters have a problem. They still can go elsewhere, if they can afford to loose the EU market.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:40 AM   #21
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it's so grating the way he pronounces it as "berrinjer" like it has a J - i always thought it was "bay-ringer"

but then again, i tend to say "mooog" rather than "mogue" so i probably shouldn't comment
The people that strictly correctly say mowg as in rogue are in the minority methinks.
Say phonetically "minimoog" into to Google and you'll get a synthesizer. Say "mini mogue and it falsely corrects that too "mini mode".
So to me most of the time it's a Minimoog.
Just as Ralph isn't Rayf, unless it's Ralph fiennes
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:59 AM   #22
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The people that strictly correctly say mowg as in rogue are in the minority methinks.
Say phonetically "minimoog" into to Google and you'll get a synthesizer. Say "mini mogue and it falsely corrects that too "mini mode".
So to me most of the time it's a Minimoog.
Just as Ralph isn't Rayf, unless it's Ralph fiennes
Or a mini morgue, which is where all the lego corpses go.
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:29 AM   #23
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Or a mini morgue, which is where all the lego corpses go.


Or this place.

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Old 02-28-2021, 09:37 AM   #24
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What's Behringer doing? In a few words that doesn't take 18 min to watch!

I thought the partnership with Midas was supposed to rebrand them? (We're not trash anymore!) Seemed like they kind of nailed it with the X32 Rack and all that.
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Old 02-28-2021, 09:38 AM   #25
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Or this place.

Thats a large mini morgue.

I dont think I can cope with the incongruity!

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Old 02-28-2021, 09:44 AM   #26
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Apart from shady practices what I don't like with the Behringer reissues is the temptation for people to collect 'em all.

So not just virtuous money saving designs for the masses but toys for wealthy folks to play with for a weekend or two, buggering up the planet with excessive consumption only to then all too often abandon them in favour of a VST that can sound damn near (or actually) identical on the recording because it's just less hassle.

How many (ever so similar) mono synths with crappy mini keys or cheap wobbly cramped pots do you really need?

I think we are past the point where most VSTis sound so close to real originals that people's money is better invested in better (higher quality) control devices and keyboard controllers rather than dated toy synth after synth.

Classic collections are something else. That's the hands on tactile experience.


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Thats a large mini morgue.

I dont think I can cope with the incongruity!

An absolute classic.
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Old 02-28-2021, 11:23 AM   #27
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Classic collections are something else. That's the hands on tactile experience.
That's why I am keeping my DX-11 ... it does still sound good even up against the VST's! But it's still the PITA 2 line LCD editing ;-)

dB
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Old 02-28-2021, 12:17 PM   #28
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That's why I am keeping my DX-11 ... it does still sound good even up against the VST's! But it's still the PITA 2 line LCD editing ;-)

dB
For the hands on tactile experience I was thinking more along the lines of the subtractive analogue synths with knobs and sliders really. Yes those old 80s LCDs were horrible.

Even so there's a world of difference between keeping an old classic like you have there and collecting a bucket load of new Chinese (flavour of the month) recreated classic mono synths with (IMHO) intentionally limited features such as too few keys, mini keys, cramped facia and so on. All designed so that the "collect 'em all" crowd will buy the latest iteration of the same synth some years later with full sized keys, full sized facia and so on.
I'm in two minds about them really. It all feels cynical though.

Where's the proper big poly analogue synths then Behringer?
Quality keybed, poly AT, ribbons, all married to a modern system with storage for hundreds of presets.
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Old 02-28-2021, 12:36 PM   #29
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Karma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVeoHzOPga0

The BetaGear XR16. 340 US kopekes. On AliBaba, of course.
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Old 02-28-2021, 12:47 PM   #30
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Boohoo Behringer, Meh meh Behringer, and what exactly are you typing this on? because you certainly aren't using an organically fed carrier pigeon that shits golden nuggets, glasshouses and stones etc.
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Old 02-28-2021, 08:38 PM   #31
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I hate that they steal other companies designs.
But,as a financially struggling musician, I have their 8 channel headphone amp,and that ct100 cable tester in my gear. I buy the original product where I can, but sometimes the pocket talks. I figure if the original owner of the copyright is upset they can sue, not my place to protect their products.

The way I see it is that as soon as nearly every company moved production to China for the lower costs (due to poor worker conditions and pay) they gave up any right to copyright. China doesn't worry about copyright. So the companies' greed took over and now they have to live with cheap copies coming out of the same factory and of the same quality now . Serves them right imho
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Old 03-01-2021, 12:56 AM   #32
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Recreations of out of patent circuit designs is fine.
If they are ripping off more modern circuits that's something else.
It is right and fair that patents should only last so long.
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Old 03-01-2021, 12:48 PM   #33
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In electronics, everyone steals...

That's why there's no copyright on schematics. Most modern stuff is just a copy of the chip mfr's application note.

What is protected ip, is PCB board design and case design. And that's where most of the work and certainly the cost is. I've never seen Behringer do really stupid things there. Their board and case designs have always been in house.

There's less than a dozen mic preamp schematic designs...

Of course, there are chips for mic preamps too. Like the SSM2016, or the PGA2500. Still, inside you'll find one of the usual topologies. They're perfect, but not sexy. No sketchy Russian carbon resistors there
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Old 03-01-2021, 01:57 PM   #34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChmLdLCJqg

I'd never buy anything behringer
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:31 PM   #35
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In electronics, everyone steals...

That's why there's no copyright on schematics. Most modern stuff is just a copy of the chip mfr's application note.

What is protected ip, is PCB board design and case design. And that's where most of the work and certainly the cost is. I've never seen Behringer do really stupid things there. Their board and case designs have always been in house.

There's less than a dozen mic preamp schematic designs...

Of course, there are chips for mic preamps too. Like the SSM2016, or the PGA2500. Still, inside you'll find one of the usual topologies. They're perfect, but not sexy. No sketchy Russian carbon resistors there
You can copyright a schematic; I see lots of schematics containing copyright notices. But you can't patent one.

You can get a patent for a unique design concept that is implemented as a circuit, but you can't patent the circuit itself. I know because I hold 3 patents in exactly this category (not in audio, this was pulsed-laser fiberoptics and microwave stuff from my old day job).

With all that said, I have to generalize, and note there hasn't been any truly unique or revolutionary innovations in prosumer audio for a while. Most are re-spins of existing designs or algorithms.
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Old 03-01-2021, 03:45 PM   #36
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Free markets without monopolies are a myth. Ask your natural gas provider to hook you up with a competitor and you'll find out what I mean. Maybe wait till warm weather to try it.
This is absolutely true, and should be universally understood axiomatically.
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:13 PM   #37
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What is protected ip, is PCB board design and case design. And that's where most of the work and certainly the cost is. I've never seen Behringer do really stupid things there. Their board and case designs have always been in house.
NAMM show 2005.

Allegedly Roland representatives contacted them already at the show and a lawsuit followed. Case was solved by Behringer changing the looks of the pedal line before starting to sell them, other terms of settlement were confidential.

It doesn't make it any better look that it could've just been a publicity stunt to make everybody think what the up and coming pedals "really" would be.
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Old 03-01-2021, 04:33 PM   #38
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Free markets without monopolies are a myth. Ask your natural gas provider to hook you up with a competitor and you'll find out what I mean. Maybe wait till warm weather to try it.
This is absolutely true, and should be universally understood axiomatically.
Infrastructure is one of the few areas where free markets make no sense so it should be publicly owned. That's the reason you can change gas or electricity providers in Germany without any risks. So there is a pretty free market for gas here. Yay for us!

You can have monopoly free markets for most goods, and pointing out a few where you can't (e.g. housing and infrastructure) doesn't prove anything.

There are many independent markets for different goods and services in different countries. Some are free, others not so much. Just because the US of A are failing tragically to protect their markets doesn't mean it's impossible.

Why do people often insist on extremes? There's no room for nuance in so many people's heads. It's tragic.
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Old 03-02-2021, 11:56 AM   #39
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NAMM show 2005.

Allegedly Roland representatives contacted them already at the show and a lawsuit followed. Case was solved by Behringer changing the looks of the pedal line before starting to sell them, other terms of settlement were confidential.

It doesn't make it any better look that it could've just been a publicity stunt to make everybody think what the up and coming pedals "really" would be.
That's what I call "not too stupid". Take a risk, but a calculated risk. Not like Telex Group (the DDA owner), who had to abandon their expensive plans completely.

And maybe Roland contacted Behringer during the show for maximum impact?
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Old 03-02-2021, 03:38 PM   #40
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That's what I call "not too stupid". Take a risk, but a calculated risk.
Yes, I guess bold move would be closer than stupid...unless they had already manufactured thousands of those ready to go, thinking they could get away with it. But we would never know that, what they started to sell was surely something different. Too bad for all those who thought they would get Boss fx and quality with fraction of the price, like touted in forums initially. Those plastic boxes could barely even stand a thought of getting actually stomped on.
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